…this time from WoT-News and in a new post, because I hate backediting the old ones.
Regarding the armor changes: the upper frontal plate became a solid 102mm plate and the “bonus armor” was replaced by a second plate of spaced armor, like this:
And the model:
English please SS???
Is it NERFED or buffed???
BuffNerfed!
NerfBuffed!
Burffed!
Ok NERFbuffed :) :) :)
SerBed!
The answer to any question about tank stats modification
It can absorb HEAT, HE and HESH way better around the joint between the upper frontal and lower frontal plates due to the addition of another spaced armour plate.
Other than that – the overall penetration needed to pen the tank is lower.
It can abSerb much more !
Historically, it had two plates welded on to it, so this is the “correct” configuration that it should’ve had to begin with.
I’m guessing the effective armor decreased due to the poorer angling of the plates… I knew the HD model looked less “Sharp”. I hope they fix it…
it got buffed HARD.. under the 1st plate theres another spaced armor plate. you got about 350 armor roght there lol 500 if angled sp got its op armor back :)
While the effective armor is less, it’s goign to be just as bouncy due too the fact that 2 spaced armor plates will mean it gets way more shots absorbed.
Buff for thicker front armor, Nerf for larger gun port??
Probably end up being the same as before the accuracy nerf.
The armour is much more stronger vs HEAT and little stronger vs AP and APCR, now your shell needs to pass 3 layers and lost a lot of penetration to pen it. Moreover, the 2nd layer has better slope than the last one and cover the latter better, so better armour overall.
Easier to pen from angle, though, because theoretically you can now aim below the frontal plates. and bypass their protection.
It is very small, good luck to shoot it except melee…
I’d rather aim for the top parts in melee. Are you one of those turret huggers ? I can’t remember the idiots I’ve killed in this situation, much higher tanks too.
As far as I remember the game mechanics, there shouldn’t be any difference between spaced armor with a single layer or with two layers. The only thing that matters, is the total distance between the first and the last layer of armor and the total armor in the shell’s path.
A three layer configuration should be even slightly worse, because the shell loses a certain percentage (5%) of penetration for each 10 cm of travel after first impact. That’s why the best configuration is a thin spaced armor and a thick armor plate behind it.
Example for a shell with 200 mm penetration:
Layer1 – Space – Layer2 – Space – Layer3 –> remaining penetetration
10 mm – 10 cm – none – 20 cm – 140 mm –> 21 mm
10 mm – 10 cm – 10 mm – 20 cm – 130 mm –> 24 mm
50 mm – 10 cm – none – 20 cm – 100 mm –> 28 mm
the slope of each layer is different…
38mm at 54° + 139,6mm at 50° (9.6) is weaker than 38mm at 54° + 38mm at 52° + 101,6° at 50° (9.7)
The differences are really small. between the two effective thicknesses. The three layer configurations seems to be neither a buff nor a nerf.
Ok, to translate this all to simple English, Spershing is FUCKED :( :( :(
Actualy, they just added the second spaced armor they removed some patches ago (which caused massive selling of this tank).
WG logic:
-nerf a tank
-needs to refund players
-buff it back to what it was
“Well in fact it was historical”
This reminds me of the “well in fact the map-over-and-over problem is intentionnal”
It’s still actually not historical, the second plate underneath the first is massively incorrect and also the angles are very wrong too.
Actually, it never had the second spaced plate- that plate was modeled directly onto the main hull armor as thickened armor. (It was easier to model and required less server resources to determine penetrations.) The 8.6 was a nerf to the armor angling, reducing its overall frontal armor by ~1/3.
It says it on the last screenshot that in 9.6 you need 269 pen and in 9.7 you need 226 in order to go through. So it’s a massive nerf.
No:
Because there is more spaced armor plates, the penetration loss of the shell is huge, so it’s about the same, if not a buff:
-imune to heat (spaced)
-imune to apcr (lose too much pen too easily)
-imune to HE (spaced)
-imune to low-pen AP (tier IX+ only will go through, and it has preferencial mm)
Just the turret weakspot will remain, but front hull is now buffed
I think you are both wrong. It’s not a buff. Maybe a slight nerf. Maybe not.
Nope, It’s a buff in reality.
Looks like Tank Inspector has no clue how to calculate needed penetration values for double Spaced armor. It should be even better than it is now, as you get the same raw thickness of armor, but it has air between those, so the shell looses much more pen when traveling through there.
The gun is the problem, a historical BUFF to the gun which was designed as a high velocity firing, high penetration 90mm cannon that could be successful against Tiger2s would be nice. Happy hunting, army50
Agreed! It’s the same gun the T25/2 has I think? As much as I do love my T25/2, it’s a little bit sad that it has the lowest penetration of any Tier 7 TD, and is in fact lower than all the Tier 7 heavy tanks (which it’s supposed to outgun).
Even a bump from 170 up to 180 would at least put it middle of the pack for TDs and ahead of most of the heavies, and a similar bump on the Super Pershing (which I’ve never quite been able to make myself buy) would I’m sure make a bit of a difference.
It is..look at the SPs gold round, it has extremely high pen. The gold round can pen a Tiger 2s UFP.
the real super Pershing had ~331mm of penetration with HVAP(apcr) @100m. WG gave it ~256mm pen. i think
and it had comparable accuracy to the Tiger II 8.8cmL71. WG gave it .38
To bad the gun handling blows.
In a slow US tank with many weakspots and is arty food the thing better have fast aimtime and low bloom to shoot and hide and this just doesnt. And with 240 ALpha vs 390 Alpha its night and day behind.
While I do wish the Pen on the 90mm of both Pershing’s APCBC shells would be upped just a little (I would like to see 203 like the KwK 43 L/71 which the T15 gun had comparable performance to) I think the justification with the Super Pershing and Pershing (who’s top gun is essentially the same Long Barrel 90mm used on the SupP) supposed ‘poor’ gun performance compared to historical records is most those documented shots were done with what is called in the US Army at that time period as HVAP or High Velocity, Armor Piercing. Basically HVAP shot (in US Army parlance I am *NOT* sure about other armies solid rounds with non-explosive cores are called ‘shot’ not shells) is essentially what is in game as the APCR premium round with the 258mm of penetration. In essence Wargaming did give us that fantastic performance, but we have to shell out the currency for it.
I don’t think Wargaming is willing to bring HVAP shot down to Tier 8, honestly I was kind’a surprised they allowed the Royal Ordnance and Rhienmettahl L7s to keep the APCR on tier 9 where they appear on the Centurion 7/1 and the Leopard Prototype.
Though the ‘up’ in pen I would like to see is mostly down to my own disability and making the game just the smallest bit easier to me. I have some nerve damage in my right had that makes aiming for weak spots with lower pen guns, like the T15 and the 105mm on the T32Heavy Tank harder for me, however I don’t look at this as a problem with the game itself, just my own disability.
Super pershing, now with additional anti-FV215b 183 hesh protection
(I thought it got preferential match making)
Only idiots shoot HESH with FV183, especially on such a target. People driving FV and shooting only HESH heavily contribute to team defeats. Personal experience with a) such players, b) FV with HESH c) over 500 battles with FV using AP ammo only.
PS: ammoracking IS-7 frontally is always fun… :) while detracking Panter II due to hitting tracks with HESH for 400HP damage is not.
Fido you Are pretty stupid IF you dont embrace Hesh – 400 in a track is better than zero with AP or bounces and ricochet. Its all about proper shell for the target and where to aim. Stupid useless claims…
I’ve got bad news for you if you can’t pen a Panther II with a 183mm AP shell.
You’re an idiot bro. Firing AP in 183 is stupid, unless you can aim it properly and target has enough HP for AP one shot, but too much for non pen HESH one shot. And that’s it. In every other case HESH is better.
1. becasue it will do damage in 99% cases, while AP won’t do anything in 1/4 cases or even more often.
2. you can get those 1750 damage shots that you can’t with AP
Well, yea, and detracking Pantther II with AP for 0 damage is even more fun that detracking it with HESH for 400, isn’t it? Because thats what happens with AP. Also 183 will do a lot more damage to tracked Panther than 400, T49 or KV-2 will do around 350-400 in that case, while 183 around 750.
You guys seem to be under this weird impression that the Panther II has really effective spaced armor on the sides, or that its tracks are known to be a shell-eating blackhole like they are on the KV tanks.
You guys also seem to be under the impression that the 183mm AP shells can’t overmatch the Panther II’s side armor.
HESH ammo can and will fail dismally. I’ve gotten hit by 183mm HESH while driving the Maus and only took ~80 damage. It hit the side armor at such an angle that AP likely would have gone through and done full damage.
HESH ammo mechanics are too wildly inconsistent to be legitimitely useful. Sure, doing 400 damage, or 80 damage, is better than doing 0 damage, but given how long the reload it, and how much MORE LIKELY the HESH shell is to do only 400 damage rather than the AP only doing 0 damage, no it really isn’t better. Dishing out only 400 damage on a gun that fires so slowly is a disaster. You may as well go with AP and get some actual reliability out of the gun.
Neither HESH nor AP is a option for this tank. It will suck (along with FV4005) with both kinds of ammunition, compared to the other tanks at tier 10.
Now HESH isnt the best, but with 275mm Pen there was literally no reason to use AP.
HESH`s 275mm splash hits drivers ports and MG ports as well.
Also the gun handling is so poor to sit there and aim for 4 secs onl to have meh accuracy is not smart. But hitting anywhere with HESH meant a good 4-800 DMG and if you had any un angled armor it was death.
If you are driving 183 with AP then you just have worse Jagdpanzer E 100. Congratulations!
Exactly. FV215b 183 has been nerfed to insignificance.
Yes and not.
I have 600 games with fv183 and:
- 1º shot with premium ammo. Why? First tank contact its normaly or LT or MT. Slow armor and 1700 or 1800 damage easy (i killed various B C with one shot = 1850 hp).
- 2º shot and more with AP ammo. Why? Tanks with hard armor and you have 1100 HP damage ever. With premium ammo you have 500-700 HP damage (its posible you had a lucky shot…but its no normal).
Why nerf it if they already nerfed it before???
At least give it same pen as regular Pershing. 180 not a lot but would be a nice bonus.
180 would be nice, but I think 175 would be more than enough since it gets preferential matchmaking.
From the second image I guess it is nerfed a lot. Because the pen values for the same area are 226 for 9.7 and 256 for 9.6.
So yup another nerf now but last article claimed it was unintentional and it will be changed.
Another thing is that the tank looks ugly as per the images above. It looks better in SD.
No:
Because there is more spaced armor plates, the penetration loss of the shell is huge, so it’s about the same, if not a buff:
-imune to heat (spaced)
-imune to apcr (lose too much pen too easily)
-imune to HE (spaced)
-imune to low-pen AP (tier IX+ only will go through, and it has preferencial mm)
Just the turret weakspot will remain, but front hull is now buffed
Only HE/HESH and HEAT lose additional penetration after hitting spaced armor (from the distance traveled after initial impact).
Spaced armor has no additional effect on AP and APCR penetrators than a single plate of their combined thicknesses. If anything a thicker single plate is better because AP and APCR rounds normalize on each plate they go through. An AP shell punching through two spaced armor plates and then hitting the hull will be eliminating 15° of angling and an 6° for APCR for no loss of penetrative ability.
http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration_%28WoT%29#Penetration_Mechanics
For example, using game mechanics two 40mm thick spaced armor plates over a 100mm thick hull hit by AP,all angled at 60° from horizontal, will have an effective armor of 273.4mm because of additional shell normalization provided by the spaced armor sheets (40 / cos(55°) + 40 / cos(50°) + 100 / cos(45°) ). A single 180mm thick plate angled at 60° from horizontal has an effective armor against AP of 313mm (180 / cos(55°) )
SpeedyCraft51: I seriously don’t thin that is how APCR works.
to the other things.
nobody is shooting heat/hesh/he at SP.
people:
a) pens you into hull (more or less) easily with ap
b) aims for weak spots.
I just try to think… It’s 3 layers of armour plates now, so 5 degrees of normalization with AP rounds becomes 15 degrees with this armour layout?
Afaik normalization only takes place at the first impact in WoT.
Not sure if this is true, at least on tanks like Conqueror and similar chassis tanks. You can penetrate side with high penetration AP in ridiculous angles, sure more than 70 degrees.
Yeah, but after penetrating the first layer the AP shell will start losing pen every layer it goes through. That causes some weird shit like BL-10 shells just getting blocked. AFAIK that’s the whole reason we lost the second plate in the rebalance.
We lost the armor plates because too many ‘players’ complained about the penetration hit without damage on the front of the SP.. I haven’t read anything about fixing that.. prepare the bucket to catch the tears..
But it looks to me that the SP can be played in 9.7 again in the way it used to be played. Just that the plates might be a bit nerfed in comparison to the version before the major nerf. (Which, imho, isn’t a truly bad thing). Make sure you don’t over angle because of the side armor and the possibility to put the shell between the new (old) spaced armor..
So… if those armour plates are basically field transplants from Panther… couldn’t they (only the plates, not whole tank) be painted Jerry grey? Kinda like the Panther/M10 is US olive drab? I know it’s not really important, but would look cool…
They aren’t. They were made from boiler plate. Basically just big steel plates raided from a factory that made/had high pressure boilers. The only piece from a Panther was the one stuck on the front of the mantlet.
Wow, with this significant of a nerf, I wonder if they’ll feel compelled to offer another refund to Super Pershing owners (doubtful).
This will never happen after they gave it for free during Operation SuperPershing.
But they will refund the credits, thats’s for sure :)
Anyone notice the spring mounts have changed? Changed to 2 straight bars on the bottom from a square external structure making it less pronounced now
So WG came to point when NERF is not enough now they are also confusing players :D ILUMINATI WG :D But HD is nice :D
And this is irl, probably mid-time during modification: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/M26_Super_Pershing.jpg
Yep, thought so, they still haven’t correctly modeled the spaced armor plates on the front…
What are you talking about, WG never makes mistakes
Sooo…what’s the point of this? I don’t get it.Is it a buff or a nerf, or are they just returning it to its old state? Why change the stats at all?
WG Offices must be bored, so they are manufacturing drama in the community now :D
I sometimes wonder whether WG employees pull fiascos like this out of their other end just to troll the player base.
its clearly a buff.
In 9.7 the frontal armor is very similar to what it orignally was before the nerf.
Remember kids:
- more layers of armor plates are far better then single thick plates due to WoTs penetration mechanics.
Another big change – the spaced mantlet part became significantly smaller (as it was on the real tank). So for those, who liked to turn the gun to the sky when facing enemies, this will be a nerf.
HD SP is so beautiful <3
I really don’t understand why everyone keeps saying the SP isn’t as good as it used to be. Like who ever shoots your in the UFP anyway? People still shoot me in same place as always, the turret cheeks and the hatches. Occasionally the very top of the UFP, but that was a weak spot as well before anyway. I have noticed no degradation in the SPs performance at all and don’t expect any from this change.