Hello everyone,
today, we are going to have a quick (not an in-depth) look at some vehicles, that could become American premium TD’s. Most of these were mentioned earlier and possible candidates. They say that there are no “suitable” candidates for the American tank destroyer – well… technically there are plenty, but they all have some issues.
It’s worth keeping in mind that currently, the position of Wargaming regarding premium vehicles is following:
- lowtier vehicles are sort of “reserved” for giveaways and rewards
- midtier vehicles are considered primarily for mission rewards (yes, more missions with tank rewards are coming)
- hightier vehicles are considered for “regular premium” slots, because they earn Wargaming the most money
As such, the priority of the implementation is obvious: the higher the candidate, the better. Let’s have a look at the candidates I could think of. Keep also another thing in mind: some of these have already been rejected and with some, I have no idea what the problem is with them.
T24 Gun Motor Carriage
The T24 was a proposal to mount a 3in (76mm) AA gun on the M3 Medium (Lee) chassis as an interim tank destroyer in September 1941. One prototype was built. Historically, it had very poor depression and elevation (-2/+15) and was too high (gun traverse was okay though, 16,5 degrees to each side). The gun was then removed and the prototype was converted to the T40. Officially, the project was cancelled in April 1942. As you can see on the picture above, the model already exists in the game and existed for a very, very long time (T24 was one of the first premium TD’s ever mentioned as candidates). Why didn’t they introduce it in the first place? I don’t know. What I know is that Wargaming is still aware of this design and it might appear one day, but its low tier (3?) makes it a poor option for America’s first premium tank destroyer.
T53 Gun Motor Carriage
T53 GMC was another early tank destroyer proposal. In 1942, an attempt was made to create a powerful tank destroyer by putting the 90mm AA gun on the M4 chassis. In August 1942, 500 of these things were ordered (with 3500 more being contemplated), but the Tank Destroyer command hated it, considering it a “crude conversion”. T53E1 (a modified version, the lower picture) was even worse (poor stability, poor handling, the engine overheated and the crew was practically unprotected) and as a result of the tests fiasco, the entire order was cancelled and the project was scrapped. The source of the above
As you can see, there are two possible models of this vehicle (T53 and T53E1) – and that’s a problem. You see, vehicles, that have various turret/hull options are usually saved for “regular” slots, because such vehicles are hard to come by. These elements do pose a problem actually, otherwise, the T53 would be a suitable candidate (yes, Wargaming knows about it).
T88 Howitzer Motor Carriage
The T88 was an attempt to equip the US Army with an extremely mobile 105mm howitzer by mounting it on a Hellcat chassis. Unlike the previous two designs, there was nothing inherently wrong with it, but it came too late – a prototype was tested in late 1945, but then there was no real need for such a vehicle and the project got cancelled.
From WOT perspective, the T88 was actually strongly considered. The icon and official description were leaked and they do exist, but somehow, it was never implemented. The biggest problem with the T88 is that it was not a tank destroyer. It was designated as a HMC (howitzer motor carriage) – what that means is that unlike the GMC vehicles, it was basically an artillery vehicle. There is a strong sentiment on US forums that there is no real need to introduce more mismatched classes (for example, T57 artillery in the game was in real life a tank destroyer, but the sealclubbing T18 was actually an artillery vehicle). Considering that The_Chieftain is one of the supporters of this idea, it’s likely the T88 was blocked based on these grounds. There is a chance we might still see it, if nothing better is found though. A prototype still sits in Aberdeen.
90mm Hellcat
No real photo exists here. Basically, not so long ago, Chieftain mentioned a post-war proposal to arm the Hellcat with a 90mm gun in its original turret (unlike the ingame 90mm Hellcat, that really is a Jackson turret on Hellcat chassis – yes, that existed in real life). Its main disadvantage is that nothing is known about it, no plans, no drawings, nada. It would be easy to implement (since the Hellcat model already exists), but the fact it would be just a Hellcat copy (that already is in the game), this doesn’t make the vehicle likely to appear.
T4 Gun Motor Carriage
As the picture description says, the T4 was a proposal to put a high-power 105mm gun on a light universal chassis. This project never passed beyond the proposal stage (“it would be cool, if…”), making it no more historical than for example the Jagdpanzer E-100. No detailed characteristics exist and it’s a real question, whether we really need another vehicle, that is mostly fictional.
T42 Gun Motor Carriage
T42 was a T49 (the ingame TD) predecessor project – it was armed with a 37mm gun. Priory_of_Sion wrote in his post a long time ago:
In late 1941 development of the T42 began as a GMC version of the T9(which became the M22 Locust). By the end of its development it evolved into a vehicle with Christie suspension and a new hull. The gun was to be the 37 mm but I would like to have something more for the T42, it would be nice to see the 37 mm w/ the Little John Adapter as the T42′s top gun with ~90-100 mm of penetration. IRL it was unable to mount a 57 mm gun and the T49 project was started in Jan. 1942 due to that.
Generally, this is another lowtier project and I really don’t think we need this as the first American TD – but it’s an option. If you want to read more about these obscure things, I suggest the aforementioned post by Priory_of_Sion.
T78 Gun Motor Carriage
Don’t be mistaken by the picture above – this vehicle’s model does not exist, this is a mod created by a US forum member ramp4ge. The T78 was a July 1943 project to arm the Chaffee chassis with a 90mm gun in a M36 turret. By that time however, the Chaffee was not even in prototype stage, so this concept was purely theoretical. It was put on half in August 1943, because the Chaffee chassis was yet to prove itself. Despite the fact the Chaffee project was successful, the T78 development was never resumed.
This is another pretty theoretical construct, as you can see. It existed, but never reached the prototype stage. It does look cool and very different, so I wonder why wasn’t this considered earlier. Still, the lack of hard info and plans probably deterred the developers from pursuing this further.
T35 and T35E1
T35 tank destroyers were predecessors to the US M10 Wolverine. It was basically an attempt to put the 3in gun on the regular Sherman (M4A2) chassis. The lower picture above shows the T35E1 – what happened was that the Tank Destroyer command was not happy about the prototype, because they felt more protection was needed. The designers added more side armor on the T35E1, but even that was not enough. This vehicle eventually evolved into the M10.
There are two obvious problems with the T35. First: it has two hull options and that’s not good for a premium tank. Second, with the alternative hulls coming, the T35 might appear as a M10 alternative hull, making it “blocked” for the purpose of premium vehicles. I wouldn’t hold my breath for this tank destroyer to appear.
M36B1
M36B1 was an M36 modification, using the M4A3 hull instead of the Jackson one, because there was a shortage of those at one point. It’s the same situation really as with the T35: most likely “reserved” as an alternative hull option.
M56 Scorpion
We all know it, no need to introduce this tiny vehicle. It has all the things a premium vehicle should have:
- it fits the game, but it doesn’t fit the branch
- it exists in multiple pieces, not a paper project
- it actually fought
- it’s not too new
- the gun properties are known, it is equal to the US M47 Patton’s M36
- it’s beautiful :)
It has one huge disadvantage though: the armor is zero. I mean, literally, there is no armor, only the gun shield is armored, the rest is half a milimeter of aluminium or something. This would make it incredibly fragile, but it could also be a lot of fun (providing it gets a decent camo factor). I asked and… yea, it’s acceptable.
T28 “Mock-Up”
This is a real wooden mock-up, representing a very early development stage/proposal for the T28/T95 superheavy tanks. It was purchased by Wargaming from e-bay and… that’s it. No further information is available. I believe this thing is one of the few proposals, that could actually appear as a high-tier premium tank destroyer in the game, but any and all of its statistics would have to be purely speculative (as in, made up).
Conclusion
There are actually many more candidates, some of them are pretty weird (check the M5 3in GMC), but most of them are completely paper. Hunnicutt mentions some hightier tank destroyer projects too, but nothing solid on them either. If I was to guess, I think the most viable candidate of all is the M56 Scorpion, then the T78, T42 and T24. Personally, I’d definitely buy the Scorpion. The rest – well, nothing that really catches my eye. There is a huge chance I forgot some of the other candidates too (US tank destroyers aren’t my thing exactly), but I did what I could. And which one would you pick?
Source:
Hunnicutt – A History of the American Medium Tank – Sherman
Zaloga – M10 and M36 Tank Destroyers 1942-1953
Zaloga – M18 Hellcat Tank Destroyer 1943-1997
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
That Chaffee+M36 combo looks sexy
The Chaffee/M36 does look like it would be fun. Vehicle would have decent speed with the game’s slow turning td turret.
Is it Chaffee remodel or one of the TDs? Link pls :)
Isnt one of the US arties build on chaffee but feels still terrible slow despite its on fast chaffee chassis?
It would just be a Hellcat with 25mm armor instead of 13mm and 30% slower.
I know, but it changes nothing in the apperance of the tank.
Nice. I’m with you on the TDs, though id love to seee the t28 mock up and the E1,E2 series…
Btw, why no M47 Patton?
I would think WG would hold the M47 for another US medium.
Perhaps M47 will appear on European tree.
M47 is somewhat already ingame, its the M46 with upgraded turret and 90mm M36, only thing wrong is the hull. they will most likely introduce the M47′s hull as an optional hull for the M46, as there is no reason to split them into two seperate tanks.
Or replace M46 with M47 Patton and make the Current M46 with prototype M47 turret a premium?
Actually it would make more sense if they put the M46 Patton as an optional hull for the Pershing and the M47 Patton is put in tier 9 instead. It would be the most logic choice
True, but it is denies a possible real and balanced Tier 8 medium premium tank.
Not that the M46 is different gameplay wise to the M26 hull.
A M46 Patton with historical gun on tier 8 and experimental M47 turret would work great IMO.
They do seem to be tying themseles up in knots. So it is bad to use a HMC as an ingame TD but we have the KV-2 as a HT and they’re talking about the Strumsomethingtiger monstrosity.
There should be a premium td and they need to bend a rule to allow one in.
Well the KV-2 and the Sturm(morser)tiger were not indirect-fire artillery, were they?
I believe the KV-2 and sturmmorser tiger were primarily direct-fire siege guns.
I know in their war with the Finnish, the soviets used KV-2s as bunker busters.
but as far as the sturmtiger’s use, they came into play too late to be used for their intended purpose.
M56 Scorpion…on tier 4. But limited MM, just see tier 4 and 5.It looks like very nice.
a gun with 173 penetration and 240 damage on tier 4? how about no.
the scorpion could fit nearly perfectly as a tier 8, if they gave it a good camo rating+high RoF, very good mobility and limited MM (tier 9 max). playstyle would be pretty much the same as the hellcat
Hmm, for a sniping T8 TD 173 Pen is really at the low end of the endurable… With limited MM it might work if it can stay hidden. (Though I am biased grinding through the Sfl V’s with the stock gun, which sucks :P)
On T6 it could be a American Premium equivalent to the Nashorn in some ways… But it might be difficult ‘premium balance’ wise. After all the T6 american TDs use the 90mm M3 which is Alpha equivalent and has lower pen.
they said the same about the E-25 with its 150 pen, but that thing is one of the best premiums there is. so the penetration shouldnt be too much of a problem as long as its other stats make up for it
Yes, but the E-25 is fast&nimble, has good camo, an insane ROF, and can actually bounces some shots (of lower tiers).
The Scorpion would be a pure sniper. And it’s cross country speed would be around 25-30kph… So the comparison to the Sfl V sounds about right to me ;)
If the Little Bugger got EPIC camo, I’d live with the Low-ish pen.
At a minimum it’s Tier6 and max Tier7 with Premium MM. Let’s look at its stats.
T56 Gun (Pen/Dmg) 172/240 (same as 90mm Gun M36 on Patton)
—- Tier 5 —-
Tier5 Pz.Sfl. IVc (Flak Bus) = 194/240
—- Tier 6 —-
Tier6 Hellcat/Jackson = 160/240
Tier6 AT-8 = 171/150
Tier6 Nashorn = 203/240
Tier6 Dicker Max = 169/300
Tier6 ARL V-39 = 212/240
Tier6 SU-100 = 175/250 or 390 (2 guns at that pen)
Tier6 SU-100Y = 196/440
—- Tier 7 —-
Tier7 T25/2 = 170/240
Tier7 T25 198/320
Tier7 Churchill GC = 214/250
Tier7 AT-7 = 226/230
Tier7 JagPanther = 203/340
Tier7 Pz.Sfl. V (Big Dicker) = 231/490
Tier7 AMX AC Mle.1946 = 232/300
Tier7 SU-100M1 = 175/250
Tier7 SU-152 = 175/390
Tier7 SU-122-44 = 175/390
Speed: I won’t go into too much detail here but this thing is only as fast as the ARL V-39. Even the SU-100 goes faster (and has a hell of a lot more armor).
Turret: It has none. It traverse is limited to +/- 30 degrees.
Armor: Don’t make me laugh
Camo Rating: Don’t forget that this feature is getting a nerf in 8.11.
As you can see, it barley matches or is outclassed by many Tier6 TDs and it completely outclassed by the Tier7 TDs. Heck it’s even outclassed by the Tier5 Flak Bus. As I said above, no way in HELL this is a Tier8 TD.
This will be like the Flak Bus, if it get’s spotted, it dies.
I decided, for shits and giggles, to compare the M56 to the Pz.Sfl. IVc (aka Flak Bus).
Gun – Advantage Flak Bus
M56 = 172/240
FB = 194/240 <– 13% More pen
Gun Traverse – Advantage M56
M56 = 60
FB = 10
Gun Elevation – Advantage M56
M56 = -10 / +15
FB = -5 / +90 <– Yikes
Ammo Capacity – Advantage Flak Bus
M56 = 29
FB = 48 <– 65% More ammo
Armor – Advantage Flak Bus
M56 = None
FB = 20/14/14 <– No Contest
Speed – Advantage Flak Bus
M56 = 45 kph
FB = 60 kph <– 33% faster
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m56spat.html
As you can see, the Flak Bus outclasses the M56 all but gun traverse and depression. There is a solid argument for having this as a Tier5 TD but I would say Tier6 with normal MM.
Yes, I know that in my previous post I kept saying T56 instead of M56… that’s what I get for posting before coffee ;)
Flak bus does not outclass M56 in speed overall. Flak bus has better top speed yes but it only has about 15.38hp per ton while the M56 has 28.1 and the hellcat has 22.7. So this little sucker is fast. Long distance travel on mostly flat ground it won’t be anything special but up hills, climbing to special sniping spots, on rough terrain and making active combat maneuvers ? This little sucker will shine.
Speaking of size the m56 is very small making it harder to hit and will give it a better camo value.
Its also funny bringing up armor as 20 armor at tier 5 is so little and on top of that it only has the 20 armor in the lower hull while the rest(most) of the tank has about 12-10 so any gun that can shoot HE can pen and do full damage most of the time.
It also only has 1 less ammo than the hellcat which as a hellcat user myself ammo has never been an issue. One tank having less ammo than another doesn’t matter when neither have ammo issues.
If it was put in tier 5 I would buy it and laugh maniacally because it would be stupid OP. It needs to be put in at least tier 6 if not 7.(E25 rival?)
Dear God, this would rape at Tier4, especially with Premium MM.
Tier 4? See Ya, I’m gonna play War Thunder Ground Forces
T88 looks like “somebody” has got his fingers on the Grasshopper (PZ sfl. IV B) and copied it with US tech.
Sorry SilentStalker, no cigar for you.
Scorpion would be another great Glass canon, but as I understand, it’s not a high tier candidate. And armor scheme is close to those high tier Waffentrager vehicles, so that’s not a big problem.
T28 mock-up variant would be good, because it’s T8 material, and that is what I personally need =)
Other than that T78 looks very nice and greatly represents other US turreted TD philosophy.
T88 would be fun as TD, but… yeah, THAT artillery argument.
T4 Gun Motor Carriage can be implemented with fictional stats, if only those suit for higher tiers.
About those variants with optional hulls.. yeah, IMHO better keep them for regular branches.
P.S. Now I understand, where the fictional T28 Proto turret design comes from (yes, I am looking at you, T35 ;)
T28 mockup should replace T28 proto.
It would probably be about the same as the regular T28, but with two big “f*ck me” spots visible from the front (the MG turrets).
M56 Scorpion on Tier 8 – I’d buy it.
Are you serious? Barely tier 7 material.
No armor (and its paper like 2nd german TD line), slower than hellcat, 90mm gun.
So. Not at tier 8 unless it gets 3k DPM and 200pen atleast.
Ok, so for tier 7, I’d still buy it :-)
Or It should have a better gun and good mobility to be a tier 8.
Premiums ofc are meant to be historical so the gun would not get any better.
They can always make damage a bit higher. I think it suits 7 tier well, it just need MM like german 7 tier premiums.
Tier6 (or 7 with Prem MM)
See my posts on spec comparisons
If the M56 became a T8 Premium, The gun should at least have 180+ pen so it can actually compete w/ others. OR the 105mm with less alpha and 190 pen.
The T24 is already modeled into the game.
It would take literally 0 effort on WG’s part to implement it now…
“A prototype still sits in Aberdeen.”
The T88 may not there anymore, some armored vehicle there was moved to fort Knox
Ok… I’d be all for that T28 Mockup one… I wanted it before in the 2nd TD tree. As a premie, it might fit the bill at tier 8.
Other than that… they’ve had a tier 8 premie TD in the game the entire time…
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/261139-how-to-offer-a-us-premium-t8-td/
I believe the T30 was in reality a heavy tank though, wasn’t it?
What about the thing you proposed a while back to replace the T18? The… T… something…
Scorpion has no armor? What, did you forget about the Renault UE 57?
-Both are small
-Both have paper armor
-Both will probably die if a Renault FT (not the NC-31 or Renault Otsu. those cant run) rams them and Swiss-cheese them with the machinegun