Hello everyone,
one of the first lines to be introduced to the European tree, coming in 2015, will be the Italian medium line. You might think it’s old news, but the line was put together (even roughly) only not so long time ago and everything is still in flux. What is practically decided is the tier 1 and tiers 7-10, even though those are not set in stone. Tiers 2-6 aren’t so problematic and there are multiple candidates especially for the low tier slots, but who knows? In any case, this line was discussed on multiple Russian sources, so I don’t think I’ll be betraying any secrets if I tell you how the line will basically look.
The main reason why the developers want the Italian medium branch is simply because the lowtier (2-4) vehicles are historical and actually fought the British (and Americans, well, partially) in the war. That of course is one of very few advantages of this setup and the developers are well aware of the issues, that come with it. As for the top tiers, well… you’ll see.
Tier 1 – Fiat 3000B
According to the Russian sources, this tank is – as one of the few – pretty much set in stone. It was heavily inspired by the FT-17 (basically an Italian version of that tank). The version in the game will be the one with a 37mm gun (“Model 30″). According to Yuri Pasholok (or, at least allegedly), this tank will be slow, but it will have very decent firepower in the 37mm gun – there was even an upgrade of the 37mm and that might be its top gun. Here’s a wiki entry, if you are interested, or you can read an article by Vollketten about it.
One interesting thing is, apparently, this vehicle might serve as a tier 1 for ALL the European branches (despite no other line having anything to do with it). I guess I don’t have to tell you how stupid that idea is – we’ll just have to see if WG drops it.
Tier 2 – M11/39
One of the “classic” Italian tanks, that actually fought the British in the desert (with mixed results). 11 tons, 37mm hull gun, 30mm armor tops and a 105hp engine – this thing will probably not be the best vehicle ever to hit World of Tanks, but for its tier, it’s solid. Think of it as a tier 2 “Lee” – a tall(ish) tank with casemate gun and limited traverse. The engine is too weak to be serving even as a medium tank, so I think they’ll upgrade it. You can read an article about it by Vollketten if you are interested.
Tier 3 – M13/40 and M14/41
This is one of the few tiers where I am not actually sure, because both candidates are suitable. What I think they will do is mix them together somehow (M14/41 was an improved version of M13/40). It’s a pretty solid vehicle for tier 3 actually. 14 tons and a 145hp engine (10,35 hp/t) do not promise excellent mobility, but the armor is fine (hull: 30/25/6, turret: 42/30/6 – this is for the early variant, the M14/41 was apparently armored the same) and the gun is of 47mm caliber already, so it’s on par. The tank is not too slow either: 32 km/h. Nevertheless, in real life, by the time it was introduced, it was already largely obsolete and despite some successes on the battlefield, it was phased out after the desert campaign. Pure tier 3 material and also possibly one of the three tanks to be useable for any historical battles.
Tier 4 – M15/42
Possibly the ultimate evolution of the previous designs, the M15/42 medium tank was introduced in 1943 and allegedly, 118 were made. By the time of its introduction, it was already quite obsolete. It weighed 15,5 tons, was powered by a 192 hp engine and could reach up to 38 km/h. Its armor was… well, adequate for tier 4, but quite lacking for 1943: 42/25/25 hull, 49/25/25 turret. The gun was still a long 47mm one, sufficient to knock out a Sherman, but against modern Soviet designs or the heavier German “cats”, it was lacking. A few of these tanks actually fought the German after the armistice, some were confiscated and used by the Germans. As a tier 4 tank, it’s really nothing special, but also not lacking. The mobility will be average, as will the firepower.
Tier 5 – P.26/40
Here’s where the “real fun” starts – and partially, the problems. The P.26/40 tank was an advanced (for Italy) vehicle, designated as heavy tank (“pesante”). I am not really sure how many were made – I’ve seen different sources claiming different things, the likely number is between 60-100 (with some only partially completed). This tank was not used by Italian troops at all – by the time of the production (late 1943), Italy switched sides and pretty much the entire production was seized by the Germans, who used several dozen vehicles in combat against the Americans. For tier 5, the tank is pretty solid – 26,4 tons, a 330 hp engine (though some upgrades were envisioned) and a (relatively short) 75mm gun (L/34) and 50/45/40 armor (60mm front for the turret).
Here, the problem is the designation. As you can see, the vehicle was designated as a “heavy” tank by the Italians, but with 26 tons, it can hardly be called as such. In this case, I think that instead of looking for something else, the developers will simply designate it as a medium. Furthermore, there were apparently upgrades envisioned for the vehicle (such as more powerful engine or even a 90mm gun), check out Vollketten’s article for more info. I think this tank might be actually fairly mobile (with upgraded engine) and a general all/rounder (even if the armor is not the strongest).
Tier 6 – P.43
And now, we’re off to paper land. P.43 was again a heavy tank project from 1942/1943, intended as something even better and more powerful in order to compete with the newest Soviet designs and the Panther. The project was scrapped after the Italian armistice in 1943. The vehicle project was very… ambitious, so to say. While it was supposed to weigh only 30 tons, it was to have the following armor setup: 100/50/40 (both hull and turret). It was to be powered by a 420hp engine (reaching up to 40 km/h) and it was to be armed with either a 75mm L/34 or even 90mm L/53 gun. That would give it some serious teeth for tier 6 and the mobility and armor would make it quite good. How MUCH realistic it was to keep the vehicle weighing 30 tons while keeping the frontal 100mm armor, that’s debatable, as a prototype was never built, but in game terms, it’s pretty good. Of course, the designation is a problem again, but – well, see above.
Tier 7 – Pantera
Tier 7 and tier 8 are possibly the most problematic spots of the entire branch and therefore, they are sadly inhabited by fakes and clones. In this case, it’s an Italian version of the Panther (called “Pantera” in Italian). This vehicle is based on the fact that at some point, the Germans offered the Italians the Panther license production (Ansaldo). This project never went anywhere for historical reasons (war, armistice) and Panther was thus never produced in Italy. It’s a pure “what if”, but sadly, there’s no other candidate. The vehicle would likely be different from the German one either only cosmetically, or by the (again, unhistorical) use of the 90mm L/53 gun. There’s no drawing of that for obvious reasons.
Tier 8 – M26 Pershing
This is another pure clone. Basically, it’s the same vehicle as the US M26 Pershing – the Italians used it after the war. As far as I remember, the only changes included removing the bow machinegun and one crewmember and that’s it. Sadly, it’s pretty much the only candidate for tier 8. There was another one (Panther II), but that’s more fake than the Panther and I have no idea about the reasoning behind it.
Tier 9 – OTO/MELARA M47 Patton II
This is the American M47 Patton II – but with a 105mm gun (the same as the Leopard) and with a different (not more powerful, just different) engine. If I recall correctly, one of those variants had one crew member less as well, but I am not sure about that. Either way, apart from that, it’s pretty much the usual M47 Patton II. Remember how players asked whether M47 would make it into the game and Wargaming said yes? Well, this is how.
Tier 10 – OTO Leopard
This is the tier 10 tank (and pretty much the only candidate). As you might have figured out from the picture, it’s a Leopard 1 clone, just with an autoloader and that’s that. It was found by Raptor_Fulcrum in some of the archives and published by Yuri Pasholok on his blog. It was never built, was just a proposal.
So, there you have it, the Italian line. Altogether, as far as tanks go, it will be some sort of lighter line, but with so many clones and different style tanks in it, it’s hard to characterize it with a single word. It could be good, it could be a disaster, we’ll just have to see.
Well, Leoloader is quite nice – something to change Batchat :D
loaders are just as “op” as u see arty, but u bless loaders from what I see, amazing.
Woras is so biased against things he doesn’t like he’s not even trying to hide it anymore~ :)
+1
Arties arent OP – they are disease.
Very true.
Some autoloaders are also disease- WTF100, but you know what, it’s called landarty, for a good reason.
Landarty is FV183 and KV-2.
WTF is just HE soaker :D Lemme get my hands on T49.
Absolutely agree. Arty will gradually kill the game. Yesterday I stopped playing after three battles – one-shots by arty (full HP Conqueror, 1500ish T-62A and full HP T-54).
I think WG is wrong if they presume that spending a minute in battle-loading (incl. queue), going half the map, fire two shots and then be insta-killed is fun. No, it is not. Not for me. As well as standing behind the only rock around the whole battle because you know arty is watching the area.
Actually, I’m not going to hide before arty any more – they kill me anyway and the more damage they do, the more likely they get nerfed. I know that WG gives a fuck, but I guess when few thousand people get fed up and waiting times rise to several minutes, WG would start thinking.
if arty still killing u it is ur problem that u can’t play against arty, sorry bro, I play almost always in first line, sometimes alone and arty kills me really rarely, so yep, it is doable.
I can’t remember when I was last killed by arty.
I sense a guy who can’t play. I’m usually first to see the enemy and first to draw blood, since I’m extremely aggressive in contesting map control, and I rarely get one-shot by arty (Last few times were all while contesting C1 Serene Coast, and that’s probably the easiest arty spot in the game) because I don’t sit still constantly waiting for them to aim in and let their shells take 5 seconds flying to me.
Since I’m not waiting for their shells to take that 5 seconds like you are, it’s much more luck to be one-shot, and if you can’t take the fact that sometimes luck sucks (drop something on your foot, then stub your toe on the way out the door, and stumble at your bike rack a bit because you got surprised by a squirrel running by) then please uninstall from this game of life.
That’s funny. The other day I got 1 shot by an arty then the next battle I got hit again for 95% of my HP. I think the only difference is I didn’t bitch and whine about arty. =P Its here to stay, it always has been and always will be. Learn to live with it.
AutoLeo, would be WoW.
“JEBANE MAGAZYNKI”
Uknown polish tanker.
autoloader. another favorite of a super common average WoT player :v
another big fail®™ for WG.
a line full of fake tanks or clones.
there are no other options so accept it or do better!
Well, there is an option of not trying to fill the whole ten tiers with a single nation.
Put P.43bis heavy on tier 7 and merge the line into the swedish heavies.
What WG should do in a first place is to stop putting all the emphasis on the top tier vehicles only.
I mean from the remaining nations you can have the CS and SWE full branches only. POL can go up to T5. HUN up to T7. Romania up to T5 + maybe that TR580 thing on T10. Switzerland has no original low tiers. The rest can put together up to 3 tiers max.
So either WG will start merging the national lines in EUR tree (it is combined tree after all, so why the hell not) or there will be shitloads of clones. And some of them like the OTO Leo might be interesting enough, but mostly it will be a copypaste bullshit and there would be loads of it on higher tiers.
Full may be a bit too strong… That said, I disagree on several levels with this tree
How can you say this is WG’s fail?
SS wrote this, it’s not official.
I think it’s decently done, just might prove a bit boring (tier 1-4 8,9) due to 1-4 being very similar, and 8+9 being essentially same tanks as others in the game.
This is why I would see this as a very low priority for WG to implement or even consider, if they were to take these tanks.
Dissapointed by the boring Tier 1 but overall not too bad.
WG has some balancing magic to do now.
I honestly don’t see the problm of the modules being shared between different nation’s tech tree. Another way to look at it is that if one tank from one nation is so similar to anther in another nation, there should just be research discount on the second time the “clone” tank is being researched on.
From players perspective, it makes sense, since most ppl have already completed at least some parts of 2 to 3 trees. To add in another tree that’s pretty much the borrowed tanks of say USA, German etc. and force ppl to regrind the whole thing is just poor game economics in general; this “new tree” wouldn’t be very popular.
From the company’s perspective, it’s easy cash grab. But then again taken the players perspective into account, this cash grab will fail if ppl are not all that thrilled with it in the first place…
just my 2 cents on this subject.
Do you think they will only begin with one country/line in the EU tree? The good news has to be that they can pretty much put out the entire light/medium/heavy/TD/arty tree from the start since they have so many designs from all these countries..or will they do as the chinese/japanese?..One line every year? Im sure you dont know that but it would be wierd if they did it that way.
One or two.
What about the P.43bis, that could work at Tier 7.
That’s the 90mm upgrade to tier 6. I asked that myself, but for some reason, they do not think it’s viable for 7.
The P.43 is just a heavier version of the P.26/40, while the P.43bis is a completely different design with very little in common with the P.43. An elite P.26/40 would basically be the same as the P.43 so they can be merged together and the P.43bis can be at tier 6.
Problem with P43 bis is that without an unhistorical gun it would be under-armed for tier VII, 90/53 was never planned.
Well, all you do on 1tier is abuse camo and viewrange, so pure firepower isn’t any advantage and lack of mobility makes it only boring and UP, doesn’t matter how much armor you put on it…
The Italian (or European) tank line would also have a similar issue i believe with tank destroyers, or assault guns in the case of what the Italians used during WW2 (Semoventes etc)
We’ll just have to see what the WG can make up.
Just a thought, did the Italians ever fight the French during 1940?
There are at least two to three potential full TD lines for the EU tree. There is one Czechoslovak one and two Swedish ones.
Italy tried to fight France.
Heads up: Charging head first in an under-equipped army at heavy and built up fortifications is not a good idea. They basically made no progress and there wasn’t an armistice until the 25th of July, several days after the armistice with Germany because France wasn’t willing to give up stuff to Italy in talks.
>> One interesting thing is, apparently, this vehicle might serve as a tier 1 for ALL the European branches (despite no other line having anything to do with it). I guess I don’t have to tell you how stupid that idea is – we’ll just have to see if WG drops it.
Problem is, that there are certain rules, set quite in stone for this game – at least for now:
1. Every 1tier is free
2. Every 1tier comes automatically to you
3. Every 1tier eqals free slot – so giving more than one for every tree is not good from business point of view.
4. Every 1tier comes with 100% crew.
Very little is set in stones, when it comes to EU tree. And many rules will be broken before the end.
That we are yet to see – but i understand why they may be reluctant.
The whole “EU tree” is a very finicky idea…
This!
And as you will have to pick up a crew nationality, before starting the EUR tree grind, in the same way WG could make you to choose a Tier1 tank, whichever better suits for you. That would be acceptable possibility. Otherwise, so many little tanks will be left out of the game.
Bu the tree… yeah, if we leave out the clones, then why not – drum Leo is a fine tank to go for after all. The existing one I have little interest in, but autoloader… oooh :)
And we are speaking about wg, the hard working company who wants to please some of the EU comunities, and of course will give a lot of free garage slots for free.
not the lazy one who takes 1 year to nerf a kv1s/hellcat, screws things with every patch and his code is a dumpster, and wants to make a mission for the fv4202 because they dont want to give tanks for free.
And why should they give out TIER EIGHT prem tanks for free? Just because bunch of morons started grinding it once they heard the first sign of “there might be free stuff”? I’m sick of this demanding “gib WG plox I deserve it” attitude. I hope WG screws you over sorely.
Maybe they could deploy other tier 1 vehicles to start different lines, but not have them come free. w/ hangar and crew, except for the very first one which would be the Italian FT-17 in this case.
That would be best – grind all other tier I from the one which would be the free-start one.
The Fiat 3000B as the Tier 1 is a weak choice especially when Italy has alternates which are better and actually led to later tanks technology wise whereas the Fiat 3000 basically led nowhere.
For the whole EU tree starting from the Fiat 3000 is a poor choice as it has nothing in common with the rest of europe.
Ironically by the time we finish the FT clones and other French variants in foreign service we’ll have more French tanks in other nations than in the French tree itself.
P.26/40 as a medium is ok, Panther in its time was a heavy too
but the 330 hp engine is not strong enough, devs should put a stronger one in the tank, historical or not
The only other engine proposed for the P.26/40, was after the armistice when the Germans proposed the Maybach HL-120 300hp engine due to unreliability and unavailability of the Italian 330hp diesel engine. So the only historical engine upgrade is actually slightly weaker. As for anything unhistorical, I don’t know anything more powerful would even fit in the P.26/40 given how Italy designed its armored vehicles.
There were more powerful engines in development so yes.
lol, I have an engine that would blow your $%&#!^% mind.
Trolololo Leopard, or OTO Leopard- my wet dream! The Leo with autoloader huhuhu :)
I am not thrilled. I liked the looks of the Swedish tech tree a lot better.
Tiers 1-5 look boring right of the bat.
T6 might surprise.
7+8 copies, meh
9+10 now we’re talking!
Not a tree to jizz pants for just because of the T10. Liked the Swedish one much more.
I’m not thrilled with WG choices to say the least.
While there is no perfect solution to the Italian tree I designed something that would at least make clone tanks feel different in game play:
http://zxhistory.blogspot.it/2014/09/designing-italian-tank-tree-for-wot.html
http://zxhistory.blogspot.it/2014/10/designing-italian-tank-tree-for-wot.html
I don’t really have any issue with clone tanks that have different parameters.
More lines, more tanks. :)
I don’t mind clones either. Personally I like to see all the variants on the field. I’d love to see T-55s and M47s on the field instead of just T-54s and M46s (with later-variant modules)
I also understand why others don’t agree with me though.
I imagine the Panther will be hard to make without any alternative gun options. i doubt they’ll give it the l/100, and with the M41 having a (Late) precedent of guns you may find some kind of 75mm l/70 (Late) version being toted on it with APCR as stock ammo and HEAT premium.
Who knows.
I hope to see the austrian Kürassier as one of the light tanks in that tree.
But i fear it may be a bit too young for that.
The Austrians considered it a tank destroyer, not a light tank. Although the two roles post WWII tended to overlap quite a bit.
Definitely going to start this line as soon as it comes out. Keeping my fingers crossed for the OTO Leopard.
wow. i thought the rear armour would be a lot better than that!!!
I’m still surprised that the Italians aren’t making it in as their own tree. They have enough content for at least one light tank, one medium tank, and one tank destroyer/artillery line.
No they don’t. Indigenous vehicles reach to tier 6 for the medium, TD, and SPG lines, and that’s with being generous. And they have no light line to speak of, not unless the Sahriano is made a light in which case it’s roughly equivalent to the Covenanter.
The hollow charges for the 90/53 and 90/42 are compatible.
Not if you want the lines to reach tier10 (this med line is the only italian line which goes higher than tier7-8)
Agreed. They were a major enough player in WW2 that they should get their own tree IMO, even if it includes a lot of paper tanks, as that really wouldn’t be any worse than the other Axis lines. To be fair, everything on the Germans starting at tier 8, with the exception of the Tiger II, Jagdtiger, and the Maus, were either canceled projects or never existed in the first place. Even the Maus, which did exist, was never finished. Furthermore, a good number of tanks below teir 8 are project tanks, such as the VK’s and the SPG line is fake after tier 6. The Japanese are even in worse shape, as not a single SPG/TD is even in the tree yet. So I’m at a loss why they can’t give the Italians the “German” treatment.
Thing of it is, there are no paper projects to include. Italy’s indigenous tank development stopped from 1943 until the early ’70s when Italy’s first indigenous tank project, was tropicalizing the Leopard 1, a vehicle which later evolved into the OF-40. Instead, Italy used American, and later German tanks, and even the proposed upgrades went nowhere as it was simply easier to buy new tanks. So we’re left with either Wargaming created completely fictional vehicles like the WT auf E 100, or unmodified foreign vehicles that Italy used, and even then there is still no TD above tier 6, and no heavy or light lines to really speak of.
As for Japan, the Heavy, TD, and SPG lines will come, as Japan more or less has enough vehicles for them. Italy on the other hand, does not.
Bah… the OF-40 would have made a superior choice for the tier 10 medium. It would finally show people the A3 turret on the Leopard is more useful than the DPM and vulnerability of the autoloader once the drum is empty.
The more I think about the EU Tree, the more I realize it’s a bad idea and it may never happen if WG decides to maintain their rule about “complete branches”.
I’d very much appreciate if they drop that rule and let branches end at lower tiers, without having to bring fakes and clones into the game.
On the other hand, I’ve always been a supporter of diversity and “as many vehicles as we can get, no matter if they were made or just paper models” so I’ll love to see more tanks into the game.
The EU tree has already been confirmed for introduction in 2015, I completely agree with tiers not having to end at 10 though, makes things more complicated than need be.
Just what tier x needs. Another autoloader.
Tier 1-6 fine the rest are just pointless
Scrap that shit! The Euro tree has enough nations and possible branches so there is absolutely no need in 4 clones on high-tiers.
Introduction of such a branch would almost certainly mean that other EU MT lines would be put on hold for years, which would include some interesting vehicles for Czech, Switzerland, Hungary and of course Sweden (hell knows why they still insist on Sweden being part of EU tree since it builds awesome lines of all classes while Italy with overstretched 2 lines was every since considered possible to become a separate nation – WTF?)
The Swedes didn’t see active combat though, so they lack prestige relatively to the Italians (Although given the results of most of the combat situations that the Italians wound up in, perhaps they would be better off without such “prestige”).
Pingback: European tank tree in 2015 - WoT Updates
Would be a real cop out to use another ft-17 clone instead of the cv.3….
I was rather hoping that the Carro Veloce L3 would be Tier 1. It was a historically important tank (more than the Fiat 3000) and used by several European countries ranging from Austria, Hungary, and Spain to Yugoslavia and Croatia. I’m mainly just glad that the Italian tanks will be making an appearance though.
Mi come italia, mi partisan in istriu.
Pingback: Czechoslovak Branch Reloaded | For the Record