On suspected German rebalance

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Author: Daigensui (US forums)

Here’s a bit of info about the upcoming German rebalance. You can consider the info… let’s say in accordance to what WG plans, ergo more than just “pure guessing” and less than a leak.

Daigensui:

Many have started panicking due the broad statement above. However, I believe while there will be quite a bit of hard number changes, those will be compensated enough to make the Panthers and Tigers enjoyable.

For starters, consider the engines, where we shall have the top engines (mostly Maybach HL 234) removed. At the same time, Maybach HL 234 is likely to be buffed to the planned 900 hp, while Maybach HL 230 P45 will be reduced to the more historical 690~700 hp. Basically we’re going to be looking at a line of less accelerating cats which might be torture for those used to the high mobility of the past.

But at the same time, the Tigers will definitely be getting an increase in speed. Most likely Tiger will be 40 km/h and Tiger II / Jagdtiger will reach 38 km/h. The slow speed at players have been complaining of will be a thing of the past. Yes, the Tigers will now have wings, although a bit weak when compared to before. Still, terrain passibility and other such soft numbers will likely help soften the blow of the engine nerfs.

Aside from mobility, Panther and Tiger will also have improvements in firepower. As mentioned before, the Panthers will be getting a rate of fire increase, which allows them to bear their blows faster and thus be able to destroy their enemies. At the minimum Tiger II will get a depression increase, with possible changes for also Jagdtiger and Tiger. Of course, given the historical accuracy phase World of Tanks is going through, Tiger II will probably “regain” its historical lower glacis plate of 100 mm instead of 120 mm, but when has that small a difference helped someone anyway?

Keep calm and carry on, my fellow panzer commanders. Panthers are getting the rate of fire that was needed, Tigers are being faster than ever. This will be counterbalanced by engine changes. All this will be quite interesting in the future.

130 thoughts on “On suspected German rebalance”

  1. thx for the info, my tiger is sitting fully manned & equipped in the garage for too long :)

  2. So 170hp less will totally not affect the performance. What do I want with a higher topspeed if it’s never reached? Exept downhill. Actually I’m more worried about what they plan to do to the E75.

    • If they’re going to delete the engines for Tiger/Tiger II, of course this will E-75 too. And, the worst thing is, *almost* every technical aspect about E-75 is speculative.

    • The E-75 stock engines are from the Tiger/Tiger II.

      The top engine is not and will almost surely stay unchanged – even though the French couldn’t get 1000 HP out of it postwar, much less 1200.

      Changes to stock engines will have no effect on E-75 gameplay, and if you’re really lucky it’ll get a ground resistance buff.

  5. The hidden terrain resistance stat matters as much as engine power.For example leopard 1 has worse hp/ton than prototype A but is a lot more agile and accelerates faster.So WG can easily compensate the engine nerf.

    If they want to…

    • Tier VI med guns (76mm M1A2 aside) could punch through about half the time.

      Implications… unpleasant.

      • haha, got used to that already!
        20mm LFP difference means nothing to a burning KT. IF they WANT, they BURN! :P

      • Since Tiger 2 lower hull has more than 45 degree slope that 20mm gives you more than 30mm effective armor. 100mm lower hull means that kv-1s can rape your lower hull with almost everyshot, currently it has big chance to bounce. And if you angle your armor you may bounce even BL-9. After that it will be impossible. So there is big difference. KT should have strong front armor since sides are weak anyway.

  7. “At the minimum Tiger II will get a depression increase, with possible changes for also Jagdtiger and Tiger.”

    Hm, “possible”? You mean absolutely needed according to “historical accuracy” they constantly preach?

  8. What about the TDs like the Jagdpanther and the Jagdpanther II?

    Are they going to give those tanks a reload buff? If so, will the reload buff on the 12.8 apply to the Ferdinand as well?

    The whole reason to get the Jagdpanther II over the Ferdinand is for the mobility it offers.

    • Those things are more than balanced. Nobody EVER mentioned them getting a change…EVER.

      Now ask:
      What about PzIII???

      Just because they are buffing some germans DOES NOT in any way mean they will buff all of them, stop with the retarded questions.

      • You do realize that JgPanther is just a Panther with the turret removed, and a big gun mounted?
        The rest is very simmilar if not identical. Since they use the same engines, nerfing one results in nerfing the other.

    • The JP2 has already a higher ROF (5.13 vs. 5, not stunning but it’s there) than Ferdinand. So I don’t think they will affect each other if they are buffed.

  9. I got the Pz 4, they nerfed it. Now it’s my beloved tigers (or cats if you want to call it). Why can’t they leave my tanks alone.
    My thought on the *rebalance*, why do they burf the top speed when the tank can’t reach it anyway.

    • When they did that with the IS-7 cries of RUZN BIAZ could be heard from the usual suspects, I seem to recall.

      Also you’d need *really* shitty hp/ton to not reach 40km/h.

      • Lol, ok i over reacted. It will hit 40 km/h. But it still slows compare to the ”will be old tiger”.

          • I just try to run the Tiger around with Maybach HL 230 P45, It feels much slower than the top engine. And in the post it said that the HL 230 P45 will be reduce to 600-700 hp which mean the tank will become even slower.

            • Just wait for the patch ffs. The will buff hidden stats to make sure the tanks are playable even with worse HP engines.

              T-62 has an EXTREMELY crappy engine too but since it is a hovercraft, only going uphill really slows it down…

  10. I’m just praying this “Maybach HL 234 TRM P30″ doesnt get nerfed, if it does my Aufkl.Panther will be completely useless. :(

      • “…those will be compensated enough to make the Panthers and Tigers enjoyable.”
        This implies Panthers getting a nerf, and the only nerf mentioned was engine removal.

        • Thanks miter,
          you have managed to keep up on current news and inform the “uninformed” about stated events, Last I saw WG (or was it specifically SerB? oh well) claimed that they would be removing the Panthers top engines, my concern was that this applied to the Recon Panther as well as this tank is only really enjoyable with its top engine.

          • Aufkugel’s top engine is unique to the vehicle and has little to do with the parent tank. As a matter of fact it only shares the stock engine with it.

  11. I don’t like seeing the Tiger going 40km/h, yet the AMX M4 45, designed to go 50km/h, stays at 35km/h. Ah well, this buff might appease some of the werhaboos.

    • Werhabros? Dude, Tiger could go up to 40 km/h, we know that form something that is called HISTORY. I can’t get your whine.
      And I’ve never heard that AMX M4 45 was (realisticly, not in your fantasy) faster than ingame 35 km/h.

    • Yes Danny, they should do that AND buff the AMX 40 so that the terrain resistance is so incredibly good that it could do what it did irl and reach 50kmph with a weak engine.

  13. If they change schalturm,weight from 12500 to Historical 7500kg, after change of engines at least panther and p2 Will keep their hp/ ton ratio

    • Module weights aren’t necessarily historical individually. However, the effect they have on the overall tank itself results in historical/physical accurate weights.

  14. The 8,8cm L/56 still needs a penetration buff especially since the VK36.01(H) will now be classed as a heavy tank and considering 3 things:
    1) With this point taken alone, the penetration should be 138mm, as the Germans tested against armour plates at a 30 degree slope. 120mm / cos 30 = ~138mm.
    2) Germans tanks were often fighting against tanks with somewhat softer steel than what they tested their guns against, higher pen is still justified.

      • How is the point justified if the steel is weaker?

        This sword can chop a rock in half. Yes I tested it on a Melon which is weaker than most rocks but the point is still justified.

        It isn’t.

        • Wrong way around, they tested against STRONGER steel than what the gun actually went up against.

          As for the Konisch… It’s not bad, but too little alpha for a heavy tank considering most opposing players don’t do you the favour of sitting in the open so you can pump shots into them. Especially with the abundance of KV-1S at that tier it becomes a situation where you hit for 167 damage but get hit for 390 (average of course).

          The Churchill Mk.VII has that issue too, along with the terrible gun depression it shares with the VK36.01(H). In the case of at least the Konisch on the VK, it should have better depression as it would be a smaller breech inside the turret than the 88, thus more room for movement.

          • Want high alpha? Play Soviet. (Then cry because the stupid trebuchets have trouble hitting the broad side of a barn.)

            Not my problem or WG’s fault the Soviet designers fairly routinely put 50% or more larger guns on smaller tanks than the Germans, who for some bizarre reason thought 75mm gun on a 40-ton plus tank is valid use of resources.

            • Do you know WHY the 122mm was chosen for the IS instead of the 100mm? Three reasons:
              1) Stalin’s massive ego
              2) The 122mm had better HE shells for knocking out bunkers
              3) The 100mm guns, while better for anti-tank work, were also new and in short supply.

              As to German engineering choices, penetration matters far more than calibre for anti-tank work. 7,5cm L/70, 8,8cm L/56, 8,8cm L/71 all had excellent penetration, and it doesn’t really matter whether a penetrating shot is 75mm, 88mm, or 122mm, it is still going to the fuck the tank up. By the way, the Germans did engineer a larger anti-tank gun in response to the Soviet 122mm, it’s in-game on the Ferdinand, Jagdpanther II, Jagdtiger, E-75, VK45.02(P) Ausf. B, Maus, and E-100. That’s the 12,8cm Pak 44 L/55 (historical gun on the Jagdtiger).

              The only real anti-tank related benefit to larger calibre guns is that the shells lose less penetration over distance due to the increased mass of the fired shell.

              I’m also not asking for a Soviet-like high alpha option for the Germans in tier 6, I just want the option they do have to be given a fair shake. Particularly as regards the Jagdpanzer IV, a tier 6 TD with MAX 150mm pen on a gun doing only 135 average damage when it can potentially meet tier 8. Fucking pathetic.

    • You are one of the few here who understands this concept. Also, German APCBC (PzGr 39) projectile nose hardness exceeded other nations’ which increased penetration for a given weight and velocity. Published German data indeed underestimates German penetration of their foes in real-world scenarios. I have no idea if the designers of this game incorporated this.

      • F’rinstance, German ballistic test plate was in the range of 260-320 BHN, while American was 220-250 BHN.

        • That’s why the US 76mm guns didn’t perform as expected in practice which led to all kinds of morale issues, acrimony all around and Ordinance revising its testing practices. Somewhat irrelevant as far as the US tanks were concerned though, as the only ones with enough plate to stand up to the more powerful end of German guns were the “Jumbo” and Churchills from Mark 7 onwards *anyway*.

          • And the Firefly, which scared German tankers so much that they were told to actively avoid them if encountered.

            • They were actually told to take the Fireflys out before the other Shermans not to avoid them.
              On the other hand Russian T-34 crews were told to avoid Stugs if encountered.

  15. “Tiger II will probably “regain” its historical lower glacis plate of 100 mm instead of 120 mm”

    I’m just wondering when WG will put away this 20mm of solid armour if it will also have some impact on the weight of that tank

    • Nothing. At least for now. The new Tier IX heavy is not ready atm, so everything will stay as it is. They don’t use the mentioned Maybach engines IIRC, so no changes there. If the Tiger I gets gun depression buff, there is (imo) a very very low possibility of the Tiger P getting it as well (to appease whiners).

    • I would love to see the speed cap on the 4502a increased, but I wouldn’t hold my breath over it…

  19. It should be noted that while terrain resistance helps acceleration and traverse a lot, it isn’t as beneficial to hill climbing speed, as the factor of an upward slope is unaffected. For instance, the T-62A (~15,5hp/t) moves as well as or even better than the T-54 (~19.5hp/t) on flat, but it’s a tad sluggish on hills in comparison.

  20. Of course, given the historical accuracy phase World of Tanks is going through, Tiger II will probably “regain” its historical lower glacis plate of 100 mm instead of 120 mm, but when has that small a difference helped someone anyway?

    Again the “historical accuracy” thing. It actually will matter. KT nowadays slightly angled(few °) can bounce ~200mm pen on lower plate. Proved it myself by shooting one with Jagdpanther(88mm gun-203mm pen) two times. If it was 100mm i would go trough like a butter. And not like KT was so OP it needed nerf. But obviously their goal is to make all german tech tree historical by nerfing them in every aspect they can no matter they are buffed just for the sake of balance of the game. How about they remove best gun on IS-4 and leave it with D25 only, just because of historical accuracy ‘n’ shit. Yea that would be dumb for sure. Same as what they are doing with zee Germanz.

      • It’s close, but 100mm at 50 degrees is about 14mm less effective than 120mm at 45 degrees.

        • 100mm@50° = 155mm
          120mm@45° = 170mm
          but if you include angling it might be no difference to a mini buff as 100@ 65°(angling) is 236 and 120 at 60°(angling) is 240 so no difference. However its very rare that you can angle urself that much without exposing ur sides to enemy fire.(Shooting around corners or teasing the enemy too shoot)

          As a general rule: The more you angle ur tank the lesser the difference betweent the old and the new armor protection. Those 175 and 181 pen guns (russian and chinese) are now more likely to penetrate. Deflecting 200 penetration guns is now considerably harder to do

    • 122mm D25 were later replaced by 122mm M62 gun so it is very likely that it also applies to the IS-4
      But you are right because i heared that the 122mm D25 gun had app the same penetration as the 88L56 gun on the Tiger. So they should buff the penetration to 190 mm and the penetration of the 88L71 to 225mm and buff the accuracy of em. That alongside with an rate of fire buff would solve some problems that were in thegame for quite a while now. (105mm on Tiger 2 and crappy penetration of the L56. To make the tier 7 HT more equal i would nerf the penetration of the american 105mm gun to 193
      AND the best part is that the 88L100 on the E50 would be unnessesary as it is a work of fiction and it looks stupid.

      Same with the 75mm L70 as in RL the penetration was equal to the 88L56
      I would buff the penetration of the 3 top 75mm guns so that the 75mm L48 has a penetration of ~120mm. i would buff the pen of the 75mmL70 to 195mm and its alpha to 150 so it can replace the L100 comedy gun
      Stug3 is hard to balance with this because not having ~150 penetration on its gun would be bad but i would give it the possibillity to mount the 75mm Konisch gun to compensate.(not historical but this is nessasary to make it playable. Those changes would make quite a few tanks more historical)

      In my opinion all the 75mm and 76mm guns exept the L70 should get the same alphad of 135(T71 would be closer to 50% global rating with this mininerf) L70 had completely different projectile and was a high velocity gun so the increased alpha of 150 would be justified

  21. am i the only guy that actually likes the tiger 2?
    am nothing special but have 56% win in it, mostly from randoms no platoon carry

    • I liked it actually; what I didn’t like was running into tier Xs and finding myself raging and how fucking long it was taking after getting everything upgraded to get to the E-75.

  22. Historically accurate phase? Hahah. Tigers could not do 40 k/h, how is that buff historically accurate?

    I have nothing against the buff, of course, but please, this has been hashed out again and again. They simply weren’t that fast.

  24. Why don’t the Panthers get -8° to +20° Gundepression? (-8° to +15° 8.8 in Schmalturm)

      • I have never read that the chin mantlet reduced the gun depression. Can you provide any source?
        Also both Panther and PantherII get the Schmalturm ingame and I also only read about -8° to +15°/20° depending on 7.5/8.8 Kw.K.

      • Maybe they can make the Ausf. A or Ausf.D turrets optional on the tank (which would offer decreased stats in some areas but gives the extra couple of degrees of gun depression and weighs less, making it a matter of preference, like using the stock turret versus the schmallturm on the VK 30.02 DB).

        • They don’t need to change any stats aside more gun depression. The chin was only added onto the old mantlet to avoid incoming shells bouncing from the mantlets lower half into the upper tank armor. I started a quick search in my Spielberger and Jentz books and only found that the chin mantlet was rare even on Ausf. G Panthers – a report of reduction of gun depression I have not found.

          But what I found that a certain aiming device reduced the gun elevation to -8° to +18° compared to the original -8° to +20° somewhere in Ausf. A. Still never any word of the fantasy values WarGaming uses on Panther I&II.

  25. So my JgPantherII will get its top engine removed and get its second engine needed by 170 hp? Are you fucking mad?

  26. I try hard to imagine, how the russian comunity would react on news like “uhm, due to historical correctness, WG decides to reduce russian alpha damage by 15% on all vehicles”

    and then I start laughing out loudly xD

  27. I have to say, it took WG a long time to find a way of nerfing the German tanks…say hello to 5 minutes climbing up a hill.

  28. OMFG I cant bear this any longer…My panther 2 is already in the garage most of the time and they still want to hurt the engine? Will it even be comparable to the Indien PZ? also,… for the historical accuracy “rebalances”…the Hellcat could go 100km/h as it was designed to do, but look at the ingame stats.

      • Yeah, cause historical accuracy can go fuck itself as long as any non-Chinese or non-Soviet tanks get the short end of the deal, and the Chinese and Soviets get the good end. I mean, doesn’t the T57 heavy’s description say that there were models with both a 120mm AND a 155mm gun? What happened to that second gun?

  29. Okay so the Tigers will be faster, but I take it that they’ll just take a little longer to get up to that top speed. Okay, I can live with that. It’s a fair trade in my book.

  30. tl;dr – SLURP SLURP

    Tiger (H) should keep its mobility and still get a speed increase. There is no reason to “counterbalance” because its the most underpowered VII tier tank, FFS.

  31. The shit motor of Lowe no change? This is a Motor Maybach HL 234! Please say yes… the Lowe needs a BUFF urgent!

  33. “However, I believe while there will be quite a bit of hard number changes, those will be compensated enough to make the Panthers and Tigers enjoyable.”

    Where was the compensation to make artys enjoyable? Are Tiger and Panther drivers alone more important than ALL of the arty drivers that basically just got the finger from WG?

  34. I heard that the Panthers and their RoF buff will be quite insignificant. How useless would that be if it turns out to be true…

  35. Since then FFS more top speed by sactifying acceleration is considered as BUFF?? 95% of time acceleration is more useful than top speed in game. Personaly i didnt enjoy playing jagtiger until i researched last engine. And i dont care if it will be able to go 3-5 km/h faster than now.

  37. “Basically we’re going to be looking at a line of less accelerating cats which might be torture for those used to the high mobility of the past.”
    Yay! The most ridiculous super turbo duper racing tanks of the game – Tigers and Panthers – will finally have their engines nerfed!
    Sarcasm mode off.
    Seriously, if WG is going to give Panthers and Tigers their historical engines, then every single tank in game should be treated similarly – for example IS-2 had only 520 HP engine, not 700 HP one, T-34-85 – 500 HP one, identical to T-34-76, T-44 – 520 HP one, T-54 – 581 HP…