It’s a Fake – Part 1: T-60P

Hello everyone,

those of you, who like to read about tank history probably know how much bullshit info and fake tanks are there around. This is something that actually bothers me, because there are some myths, that get repeated over and over (some of the most annoying myths being referring to the Jagdpanzer 38t as “Hetzer”, the crap about Shermans burning all over the place and other bullshit by Belton Cooper and many others).

A special category of tank myths however belongs to fake tanks, that were never built or even projected. In this category belongs the myth that Löwe or Bär had working prototypes (they didn’t) and all sorts of German-related bullshit, made up by Wehraboos, modellers or simply ignorant or confused people (Krokodil, FlakMaus and others). There is one special subcategory of the previous group however: fakes, created intentionally with some purpose in mind. This is the category of Wargaming fake tanks like the 120 ton VK7201, WT E-100, T28 and T28 Prototype and other crap, that makes its way to history sites, because World of Tanks is supposed to be historical. We’ll take about that in next part.

Today however, we are going to have a look at a fake that – if unchecked – could spread and – in worst case – appear historical, the T-60P.

“T-60P” is supposed to be a (possible high-tier) Polish tank. It appeared first in this topic on European forums in the Polish section. Basically, the author (nickname Antonowicz) produced a story, where he claims that his grandfather was working in Polish plant in the 60′s (!) and that he mentioned (!!!) such a project being created as an upgrade to the T-54 by mounting a T-10M turret (!!!) on a T-54 hull. It was supposed to look like this.


I am sure you realize that the story is complete bullshit. The T-10 turret drawing is horribly off scale (the turret is too small) and there is absolutely no reason a limited production Soviet heavy tank would be dismantled and its turret used for the T-54. It’s even technically impossible, the turret is too big and the hull is too small. The guy, who posted it, produced no serious proof about this vehicle apart from “my grandpa said” and was rightfully mocked by other people on the forums. That was November 2013 and it could have ended right there – but it didn’t. Undeterred by the criticism, days later the thread author “scanned the original drawing”, producing this:


Yea, I know. I laughed too. At that point the thread turned into a complete mockery and was locked by a moderator. Again, it could have ended right there, but it didn’t. The author produced YET ANOTHER fake drawing, this time looking marginally more believable:


This “drawing” is the reason why I am making this post, because as bullshit as it is, it looks somewhat real at first glance and if unchecked, this could start spreading, so it’s better to stop it right here and right now. First of all, there are the clean lines on the picture, it was obviously made in some editor or photoshop (unfortunately for you, dear author, our grandfathers didn’t have photoshop, they made this stuff by hand). Second, there is that big CAMO RF red watermark over it. CAMO RF means “Central archive of Ministry of Defense, Russian Federation” and it is a watermark used by Yuri Pasholok (and only him as far as I can tell in this format) to distinguish the documents he personally posts on his blog – which means he would have to be the source of this drawing. He wasn’t – I asked Cannoneer, he asked Yuri Pasholok and Yuri Pasholok said it’s a photoshopped fake.

So yea. This is not the first time Polish players have made up a tank in order to create their own proposal for a tech tree. The first two fakes appeared more than year ago, the ST-50 or ST-51. Basically, what it was – some Polish player took the Czechoslovak TVP project, started claiming it was co-developed with Poland based on some claim in a post on some Polish forum and started spreading it around. It’s of course a lie, TVP was never co-developed with the Polish (if only for obvious political reasons – right after the war, we weren’t exactly friends with Poland because of territory disputes – and yes, there is that little thing that the Polish claim used drawings from a Czech book, in which there is not a single word about Polish involvement as proof). Any branch with “ST-50″, “ST-51″ or “T-60P” can thus be safely discarded as bullshit.

132 thoughts on “It’s a Fake – Part 1: T-60P

  1. Original drawing, lololol.

    Nice post, thanks for clearing up. Looking forward for the next part.

    • They had some very nice pre-war proposals, so please let’s not turn it into an anti-Poland mockery (such bullshit appeared on US forums too for example, I will write about that in the future).

      • Sorry SS, I may started out too aggressive but the fact is that Pollacks have something wrong with their “patriotism” and national pride. They want so bad their polish branch that they must make up fake tanks. Why they just can’t get over it, poland was not interested in tank development as much as Czechoslovakia or Hungary while being twice as big and having much more soldiers who were very motivated to fight for their land AND having much more enemies than their southern neighbors. Why they can’t get over the fact there are no good polish tanks to make a whole branch in WoT.

        Even more so , why pollacks can’t admit their history was full of failures. They can keep saying endlessly how they were victorious against Teutonic knights in prussia, or that they kicked Swedes ass a few times in 16th century… Notice that largest and strongest polish clans is called after sarmatians, this is connected to Polish nobility of 16th and 17th century. Notice how they are tireless in remarking on how strong they once were yet they can’t get over their obvious failures in history.

        I just lost it when saw that there are already 3 completely fake tanks made up by polish community. That T60P shit…. the guy made at least 3 attempts to fabricate false proofs. I got really mad with this one. Pollacks are pathetic when it comes to discussing their history.

        • I have to admit, the load of ignorance in your post about post-WW1 is about as bad as the attempted fakes.

            • Oh really…

              Besides Polish tanks which I don’t give a fcuk about, you sir, are a fcuking moron and a rude one on top of that. I’m a Pole, I am not a particulary patriotic soul and I admit that my fellow compatriots brag about the history too much – I don’t share the sentiment but I understand where it comes from. As long as they don’t offend anyone I’m ok with that. It’s called respect and tolerance, something you should definitely learn asap. BTW, do you also call black people “niggers”, Japanese “japs”, Chinese “chinks” etc? Are you a racist Mr. ExoNut or is it just an SPS (small penis syndrome) issue?


        • Being European superpower up till 17-18th century is a failure? So much history knowledge here…

          “Why they just can’t get over it, poland was not interested in tank development as much as Czechoslovakia or Hungary(…)”

          BS. There was a lot of interest in armored warfare (tanks themselves and tactics), but putting economy on track had higher priority. Importing some French light tanks (Renault H-series iirc) for reseach and training purposes, licensing and modifiyng vickers light tanks/tankettes, research of new tanks (there are some pre-ww2 blueprints afaik) tells something, no?

          “Why they can’t get over the fact there are no good polish tanks to make a whole branch in WoT.”
          There might be, there might not – nobody knows what’s in the archives.

        • As Orzel said wrote earlier: keep in mind the conditions. Czechoslovakia had tank industry because in short, by early 30′s we were the arms superpower, we exported the most weapons in the world. We have traditions, Poland didn’t and the fact they were able to build at least SOMETHING from scratch is impressive.

          Plus, they got steamrolled by Germans, yea well, so did France, considered (til that point) to have the strongest army in Europe. I wouldn’t judge them too harshly.

          The guy producing these fakes is an idiot, but it has nothing to do with Poland itself, as I wrote, Americans produced some crap like that too.

          • Also notice that those licensed and modified tanks/tankettes had some moderate success during September campaign. For more detailed info read “Polska broń pancerna 1939″ written by Rajmund Szubański.

        • “the fact is that Pollacks have something wrong with their “patriotism” and national pride.”
          Have you ever heard about different cultures? Just don’t say such things without understanding how polish people think. “pollacks can’t admit their history was full of failures.” Yes, sure it was. Germany’s too. French people also lost some wars against Germans. Russia had this wonderful fake when they sold Alaska for nothing – and then, The Americans found a lot of Oil etc.
          And USA… Well, also sth were you “can be really proud of”
          Just – Stop saying such things about other people in other countries without any real reasons. You don’t understand WHY polish people think so.
          Maybe the wrong place here to talk about such things but pls, just try to think some more before you write or say such things.

          • > Just don’t say such things without understanding how polish people think.

            I live in poland. I know exactly how they think.

            • So, are you a shrink too? If not i highly doubt your claim.
              You base your views on an example of an attention seeking kiddie, who got negrepped and ridiculed(as SS wrote himself, perhaps you didn’t get to that?) to the ground by us poles(not pollacks, come on it’s easy to memorize) ourselves. Just to be clear, i don’t give a rats ass about polish tree/branch at all, our best armoured division used brit and yank tanks anyway and we already got a mod turning cromwel into general Maczek’s personal machine.
              I really, really recommend you change .your neighbourhood if all you see around you are cases you described and again please leave psychoanalysis to those properly educated for it.

        • I call your whole post BS.

          First, it’s Poles not “pollacks”.

          Second, you better start it with big letters.

          Third, Poland was very interested with tanks, but Polish economy after WWI and 123 years of not being a free country was shit, and rebuilding it was priority. During the same time, Czechoslovakia got fucked in the ass by allies in Nurnberg and then happily produced tanks for nazis all the way until 1945. Hungary was german ally, so it also was free to all it wanted.

          Also, please note that France, who had the biggest european army at that time, fell under Germans in 5 weeks – while Poland, being attacked by BOTH Germans and Russians, with no promised help from western allies, kept fighting for 4 weeks. I’d say that’s damn embarrasing for France, and should fill heart of every Pole with pride.

          And don’t try to say everyone that it’s just polish community that makes fake tanks. Every idiot can do that and many of them do, in probably all countries. So STFU and get the hell outta here, please.

    • Its second on our priority list, “can into tanks” is right after “can into space” and before “can into superpower”

      • Can not*

        Poland was once great power feared by whole europe but then… pollacks did nothing to stay as that power. I mean how much was that power worth if in less than 40 years such great power disappeared from map ? How pollacks ? How ?

        • Dude, are you stupid or what? SS told you to lay off the poland thing… This post isn’t about that so stop it already… Nobody gives a fuck about it.

        • Then you probably won’t want me to start about what they did to the Ottoman armies invading Europe, I’ll keep silent. (Hint: We could have been a muslim continent)

          • Oh man, this again ? That’s exactly what I’m talking about HURR DURR BE GRATEFUL TO POLAND WE KILLED TURKS

            I’m out, really.

            • Apart from everything, can You PLEASE stop calling us “pollacks”? Please…? It’s like calling afro-americans “niggers” or people from Germany “krauts” or “nazis”.
              So… have some respect…

            • well, i am for banning you from ftr if you don’t stop posting such things. It’s just so…

        • You’re really ignorant… First of all, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth existed for over 200 years. To put it into perspective, that’s as long as the First British Empire. But the Brits did not have 5 strong neighbors breathing down their necks…
          Second, you seem to forget about what happened during WWII. If it wasn’t for Soviet Union backstabing us, we could’ve stopped the Nazis with some help from France the coward and Britain “the ally”. The war could have ended in 1939, maybe 1940…

          • Firstly the Brits had entire world around their empire and they could stay strong and live in peace more often than not with major powers. In the end the British were not partitioned nor collapsed on their own as Empire. Something our lovely Commonwealth couldn’t do.

            Secondly, I don’t know how polish leadership could’ve been so dumb to assume that soviets WOULDN’T make that maneuver when Germans attacked. Especially after Polish-bolshevik war. The Soviets were soviets, the whole west knew you can’t trust them, the pollacks were to know it best since they were the only independent nation to fight a full fledged war with them yet they were surprised by soviets decisive strike in 1939 ?

            Think again, politics are not about honor but about calculation but all this “honor” in polish politics is something coming back here and now. Poles think “we have honor, we are better than those filthy west/germans/russians, we are morally superior” but then comes those “morally inferior and without honor countries” and they have poland any way they want because political situation suddenly, just suddenly become hostile from all sides and of course, it is not polands fault but the evil world around it.

        • “I mean how much was that power worth if in less than 40 years such great power disappeared from map ? ”
          Not 40 years, but almost a whole century of wars (civil and with external enemy) that took it’s toll on the econonomy and killed ~1/3 of population iirc.

    • This takes me back…
      Back in my days, on the Project Reality forum I’ve met a Polish kid; that made up a complete story about his Dad being a commando, training with Spetsnaz and so on

      Kids gonna kid, face it.

      • So you want to be either A Pole stick or Shoe Polish ? Great, I always knew pollacks are ignorant and want foreigners to have problems in naming them.

        I thought calling Pollacks as “siemkas” was offensive but I guess everything now offends Pollacks.

        I would also like to refer to the guy saying that calling pollack is like saying Nigger, well I’ve checked dictionary and apparently there’s no such meaning to term Pollack so it’s your problem that you feel like N… when someone calls you Pollack, not my.

        • From the “Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary”:
          Polack – noun (taboo, slang, especially North American English) – an offensive word for a person from Poland or a person of Polish origin.
          Check-mate, Mr. Xenophobe

        • The noun Polack (also Pollack, Pollock, Polock), in the contemporary English language, is a derogatory reference to a person of Polish descent. It is an Anglicisation of the Polish language word Polak, which can mean a Polish male person or a person of Polish nationality, (feminine being Polka) with a neutral connotation. However, the English loanword “Polack” (note the spelling difference which does not appear in Polish) is considered an ethnic slur in the United States and the United Kingdom, and therefore is considered insulting in nearly all modern usages.

          • and btw. when Poles talk about other Poles in Polish they call them polacy which is kind off pronounced like “Polahtsuh” not completly correct but close, it’s not that easy to spell the pronounciation of something

  2. Nice sleuthing.

    Looking forward to the 2nd part. With the rise of the fake tanks I’m going to make sure the Wiki has better clarification as to what was real and what wasn’t, once it’s reopened.

  3. - This is the category of Wargaming fake tanks like the 120 ton VK7201, WT E-100, T28 and T28 Prototype and other crap, that makes its way to history sites, because World of Tanks is supposed to be historical. We’ll take about that in next part.

    Oh my, this might be flammable.

    • I just can’t wrap my head around the fact people believe something in a game. Sure, Achtung panzer seems “historical” enough but a game? Really?
      At least the most videly known sites (ala wikipedia and Archive awareness) know their shit, if everyone would be just copying from one another there wouldn’t be anything real on the internet.

  4. Pingback: [Sammelthread] World of Tanks [3] - Seite 1396

  5. This must be pretty embarrasing. It should be at least, as the whole notion of making up a tank just to have a tech tree and to lie about having “original drawings” is pretty pathetic.

  6. Silentstalker, do you think there might also be a category of blueprints of “fake” tanks that were created during and after the 2nd world war (on any side) that was intentionally leaked to the other side in order to spread misinformation? I think it would be equally disastrous if such things made it in to WoT.

    • I know of only two such tanks, the Panzer IX and Panzer X – that was pure propaganda. Maybe the allies did that too, not sure (plus, in second part of the war, there was probably no reason for such propaganda, because by 1943 Germany was already on defensive anyway).

      • Toss in the supposed ‘Polnishe panzer t39′, Though that probably was more counterespionage than propaganda…

          • The fabled 14tp, I know of that, but the drawning itself is (at least according to Janusz Magnuski) most probably a fake purposely fed to the germans. Or a really poor rendition…

      • The allies did a lot of miss naming, labeling, and just overstating the capability of their tanks from time to time. Well and then there was blow up inflatable tanks to increase the numbers of tanks around. The Germans tried skipping blocks of serial numbers to “increase” their numbers of tanks available.

  7. I don’t really mind WG producing fake tanks like the T28 Proto, I think they actually did a good job. Like, the “historical design drawing” supposedly depicting T28 proto looks like a really early design stage, but I like how WG “simulated” years it would take the design to develop further, like the drawing has VVSS suspension, as on the first Shermans, and the Proto (and the T95 too) has the HVSS as fitted to the M4A3E8. That’s two years from the M4 in’42 and E8 in ’44. Plenty of time to develop the design, and WG made it “believable”, it even looks pretty badass, if I say so myself (I enjoyed T28 proto greatly). As for the others, it’s the “it could have been” thing.
    TL DR: i don’t care about the fakes, as long as it’s pointed out it’s a construct and wasn’t a real thing.

  8. Well Shermans actually did have issues with fires after a hit before adapting a smarter way of storing the ammunition. It’s only the early models however and often widely exaggerated. Same as the “invincible Tiger” myth.

    • LOL!
      That’s all I can say XD I’d like to see someone explain how this was supposed to worm

      • DarthSatanus69 said:
        “Mój dziadek był inżynierem III Rzeszy, oto co mi podesłał na e-mail : ”
        My Grandpa was III Reich engineer, he give me this on e-mail:
        “Wyprodukowali jeden prototyp, który rozwalił Sewastopol jedną serią. ”
        They biuld one prototype, which smashed up Sewastopol with one series
        Polish trolls were trolled by polish. See other jokes/fakes in orginal thread.

  9. I kind of feel bad for the kid.

    He thought his grandpa designed a tank or something and everyone mocked him.

    I know it’s fake and I know the world is cruel but it still seems rough on him.

  10. Now i just gonna grab a Drawing board. Draw some random tank and claim its a top secret DAF project to troll around. It will be as real as this one. ;)

  11. I wonder where they would get those T-10M turrets, since they were never exported to the Warsaw Pact.

    • There’s a few posters running around claiming there were a handful of those brought in for evaluation, which sounds somewhat plausible, and if the turrets were needed, they could probably be home-built on a licence. The availibility of parts is the least of the problems here…

    • IMHO a far more serious question would be “How would like your crew made?”, because sitting on the engine would surely raise some comfort issues :D

  12. Well we have fake everything else,why not fake tanks.Mis-information and BS are a foot.
    Has anyone heard of E.L.F Mk P1
    Stronk Tank made by magic russain elves very good camo due to the Fairy Dust.
    Very OP.Nerf the SOB Right now,God dam it.
    Or should I get one?

  13. What about the “historical” FV3000 that I’m about to makeup…. I mean, post “historical” documents about.

    But on the serious note, the only time I want to see a fake tank, is if it’s shown in Star Wars or another Sci-fi film.

  14. To all saying “Poles made up a tank” – It was 1 (ONE) guy that make a fake tank, and 99% of forum readers told him that he must provide a proof that this tank is real. Also the “Polish-Czechoslovakian TVP tank” topic was quickly explained on the forum so every mind-using reader was avare, that there was no cooperation and Poland it was in no way “Polish” tank. So please stop writing bullshit.

  15. WG can organise some competition in style “Making of the most believable fake tank” it would show us the true troll power :D
    Bad joke i know..
    Now seriously: I have made some 3D models of fake tanks .. just my imagination.. i was training my CAD skills. Now i decided to keep them only for my eyes :D they could cause flame like this one.

  16. Some problems with this article, specifically that it claims that the VK 72.01 and the T28 were fakes. They weren’t fake at all.

    The VK 72.01 is the designation assigned to the original design of the Lowe (known as the “Leichter Lowe”), along with the heavier 90-ton “Schwerer Lowe” design that was later refined into WA 1662, which is the tier 8 premium Lowe we have in the game in order to simplify production by keeping as many components in common with the Tiger II as possible. None of them ever left the drawing board after Porsche’s Maus was selected for development instead.

    The T28 is the original form of the T95. The second set of tracks were added on later during testing after they changed its designation and intended function in order to more evenly distribute its weight. I’m not sure the T28 Prototype in the game is an actual design though; it’s something to look into.

    • Stop repeating that fucking trash that is Achtungpanzer. The Lion was designed BEFORE Tiger II was even on the drawing table, and there was no light/heavy distinction. All of that is utter BS by that faggot of a lying Achtungpanzer.

    • T28 in game form is fake, because it was simply the T95 without the additional tracks. The stuff from Achtungpanzer is just bullshit, that site is run by wehraboos and morons and unfortunately, people who are… well, let me say “confused” (putting it mildly) take their fantasies as reality and repost their crap.

      Please never, EVER quote Achtungpanzer again.

  17. Just because the Germans didn’t call Jagdpanzer 38t a ‘Hetzer’ doesn’t mean we can’t. The US didn’t call the M3 a ‘Grant’ tank either even though they built it. Is there a US tech manual calling it a Grant tank? It was the British that named all those tanks with catchy names.

    • That’s a retarded paragraph. Grant was different from Lee in several ways, but mainly starting from the turret.

      • Not exactly Mensa material are you? Grant, Lee and American tanks named after US Civil War generals were named by the British. They even made up a list. The US Army did not give them those names.

        • Dude…

          Ever heard about this “period” thingy?…



  18. becaouse of retards and kids like this polish plyers have bas opinion and there is so many god guys after 18 y even after 35 . its not our fault thad we have so many kidos playing wot i Poland

  19. Nice article SS, keep them coming.

    As for the whole thing about PL tree – can someone please explain in an calm, comprehensive and non-butthurt we-mast-haz-it way why the Poles (to avoid confusion, not all of them, and not all are siemkas) want their tree so badly?

    I am sure lower tier tanks/tankettes (TKS as a PL version Pz I C, just one tier lower? Stronk tonk!) will be pretty awesome in a mixed EU tree, but constantly being butthurt and obnoxious to anyone saying “no, you cant have it” is just weird.

    Heck, YU tree could be more fun with tanks from all over the world, making it an unique mix of RU/US/UK pre-war, mid-war and post-war machines and their modifications (some were used up to mid 90´s!), but you dont see former YU/Balkan community being this enraged about the fact we are not going to get it.

    What´s the deal with that?

    • Eeeeeeewwwww….. No, can’t explain it. I don’t know myself either. This might be somewhat connected to “Czterej pancerni i pies” tv series, but I’m not sure.

      Personally – I don’t care. WG can implement apocalypse/mammoth or even a baneblade in some separate tree for teh lulz.

  20. BTW: as I said earlier – nobody knows what’s in the archives. There might be enough tanks to do two full branches or there might be none. There’s a chance (slim, but bigger than 0) that there are some blueprints which got turned down for political and/or economical reasons – just as it happened with some non-millitary projects (FSO Wars car or K-202 computer).

  21. “Polish players have made up a tank”

    YEAH! Since every polish player made up a tank, logic!

    I heard, that czech player have made up a submarine, oh wat.