Historical candidates for FV4202 replacement

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Hello everyone,

as I informed you several times already (including personal confirmation by WG EU’s historical expert, Challenger), current tier 10 British medium tank in the game, FV4202, is very unhistorical (armor is overbuffed, wrong gun if I recall correctly – the real life FV4202 carried only the 20pdr) and if Wargaming brought it to historical parameters, it would be like tier 8 stuff.

Naturally, there have been some thoughts by players to have it replaced by something else. Will this really happen? Who knows. But I was of course wondering, what vehicles are available to replace it (if any) and so I asked around, specifically those, who know a lot about British tanks: Listy and Xlucine. Special thanks go to Cannoneer (WG RU) for linking me some of the sources for the Action X.

Basically, we (well, they), apart from some vague ideas about uparmored Centurion variants (Xlucine’s materials, up to him to publish what we found), we found out that there are only two realistic options, each with its advantages and disadvantages. I am pretty sure that any potential replacement would be one of these two – IF Wargaming decided to implement a new vehicle at all (it’s probably also possible to separate Centurion Mk.IX from tier 9, but that would mean a lot of tree re-work and rebalancing of both tier 9 and 10 instead of just tier 10).

These candidates are the Action X Centurion and the Vickers MBT.

Action X Centurion

image2

Action X Centurion was an experimental upgrade program for the Centurion tank, first mentioned in 1955. A Mk.VII hull was fitted with a new type of “mantlet-less” turret (you might see some Chieftain resemblance there) – please note that this turret (despite superficial resemblance) is NOT identical to the FV4202 turret. Although it was proposed to manufacture late model Centurions with this type of turret, the program did not progress beyond prototype stage – the prototype was later used for infantry training. The actual thicknesses are not known, but the frontal base thickness is (based on tank-net info) believed to be 200mm (as an alternative to simply adding a 75mm appliqué plate to the (already existing) 150mm thick Centurion turret front).

The main issue with this vehicle is that while the turret performance probably is sufficient for tier 10, the Action X Centurion was armed only with a 20pdr, so buffing it to 105mm will remove one unhistorical vehicle (FV4202) only to replace it with another one. The main advantage is, well, that it looks really cool.

The turret prototype actually exists (although in bad shape) at Bovington:

556076_10150634429851404_1182606857_n

Vickers MBT

AB133_-_Vijayanta_MBT

Vickers MBT was supposed to be a cheaper export tank for foreign markets, developed in early 60′s (first prototype came in 1963). Its Mk.I variant (that would fit the tier 10 slot) was actually mass-produced both in Britain and in India, with 2200 built under the Indian name “Vijayanta”, but it was also exported to other countries, such as Nigeria and Kenya. Superficially it resembles the Centurion, but it’s actually not as armored, its main purpose was to be much cheaper, while keeping its effectiveness. It was lighter (some sources state 38, others 40 tons) and it had a 535hp Leyland L60 Mk.4B engine (later upgraded to 720hp Detroit Diesel). It was armed with the 105mm L7. However, there was a price for all that: the armor was only 80mm thick in front and not too well sloped.

In game terms, the Action X turret Centurion would be something like current tier 9 Centurion, while the Vickers MBT would be a Leopard 1 clone – quite light with very thin armor, but fairly mobile. Which option would you prefer?

Source:
R.Dunston – Modern Combat Vehicles 2: Centurion
Various tank.net posts
www.valka.cz

169 thoughts on “Historical candidates for FV4202 replacement”

  1. Maybe the Action X Centurion’s 20 pounder could get the same treatment as the other tier 10 medium guns, getting it’s alpha and penetration artificially boosted to, say, 300 dmg and 266 mm pen?

    That and 10 base RoF would give pretty mean damage output to balance the general lack of camo and armor.

    • How about nerf all med Gun Penetrations.
      The time where just Tier ix meds and tds existed was the best time….

            • Well shooting Gold has often only to do to overcome allmighty RNG (which is too large spread imho) – cos you sometimes not reliably hit Weakspots cos of RNG and lets you down in all, acc dmg and pen.. With Gold you have at least much higher pen calculation, and if you drop.. well you still have enough pen if RNG fucks you again.. thats how i see it in some situations

              • I hardly ever fire HEAT from my Leopard 1, 268 mm pen is enough. I only fire gold when I have some impossible to pen stuff that I can’t circle, or I really NEED to pen a certain shot.

        • Once we’re done nerfing something, something else takes its place. It’s what I like to call the Nerfwheel. We’ve nerfed Arty, soon TDs, and now people want to nerf Mediums. Then the heavies are going to be too strong (in spite of what people say, Heavies are still the most successful tanks in a good part of battles) and so they will be nerf, which will in turn make TDs and Arty overperform.

          • Spin the nerfwheel long enough to make everything crap and it will eventually balance out the power-creep that has accumulated over the last year..

            • Yeah sold the IS-7 because it was so under powered, re bought it yesterday because I thought I was being foolish before. NOPE. Its still horribly under powered.

  2. Well, since it is stupid to think anybody can avoid lighter armored agile tanks since that is how each one will end up being because of the logical tank development and not including the reactive armor and smoothbore guns, the Vickers MBT seems like a OK candidate for tier 10.

    • Tesco Tank! Cheap to be available for the poor countries :3

      Nah, I wish there was separate line for muh Tesco Tank , Centurion Action X is much better replacement for FV, remember we have Sherman FireFly to place in a line and since it’s a conversion form ‘murrican tank, we could stick it together with Australian Sentinels and then Crown the line with Vickers “Tesco Tank” MBT since it was meant for India which if I’m right, was part of the Commonwealth, which in turn makes a prefect commonwealth/conversion tank line :3

  3. Action X Centurion or I just call it Centurion X(its just me) and the Vickers MBT.
    Oh man 0____0; I’m not ready for this. My 7/1 is itching to pick one… Pick 1 or just Both.

    and let WG put FV4202 to tier 8 or just VIII prem.

    • Why don’t they make the fv4202 a tier 8 prem and give it free to everyone that bought the fv4202 when it was a tier 10 and put them to research the tier 10 once more…

      …just saing coz WG won’t do this ever!!!

      • I agree a lot if people are expecting WG to give a free premium tank again but it’s not going to happen

        • didnt know that, anyway they make a lot of mistakes all the time

          I would buy it anyway if it will be a tier 8 prem with HESH ammo

          • Donno about HESH ammo…it’ll be a fine t8 material only with the L7 replaced by the 20 pdr and with it’s historical armour…and, afaik, the 20 pdr(in game) fires APCR as premium ammo, not hesh.

            • I don’t recall them calling the t34 thing a mistake the type yes, there’s never been floods of t34′s ingame, although they did wait a while before selling it. I think they’ve said before premium tanks are not a major source of income, its more premium & gold that generate the £££.

  5. Action X Centurion looks much more badass, but I prefer Vijayanta because of 105mm L7.
    What about adding Action X Centurion turret as an upgrade for tier IX centurion?

  6. Vickers is probably going to be the 2nd tier 10 medium, and they might slip the Centurion X on the tier 9 slot. Demi-Chieftain has lower profile than both of these so it appeals to me the most, besides having an unhistorical gun.

    • Well Chieftain was designated as heavy tank right from the start by Brits, I wouldn’t count on that becoming a medium.

      • It was an MBT IIRC, not designated as a heavy. Just like Leopard I was designated MBT and not a medium…

      • Read: DEMI-Chieftain aka 40 ton Centurion aka FV4202. Chief (prototype) would definetely fit as a 2nd t10 heavy.

      • So why don’t they replace that unhistorical FV215b (which is now just a little shittier version of T110E5) with Chieftain then? Is L11 too awesome?

        • Chieftain deserves its own line. And yes, L11 pens 320mm with standard ammo, and unless WG magics in another round, it’s not going pen anything other than that (except with HESH and training rounds).

        • FV215b is only “shitty” when people try to go around corner front first and get tracked with turret blocked…

          Performance is fine because of even better dpm/firecontrol than T110e5 and premium ammo is APCR.

  7. The Action X Centurion(Darn, how badass a name is that?) fits more in with the theme of its predeccessors, I’d rather they saved the Vickers designs for a faster medium line, or as the culimination of a light line like the french has it.

    • Heeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvyyyyyyyyyyyy taaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk

      The brits desgned it as Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

      • please stop shouting.
        … can you link a source stating how the UK treated this tank as a Heavy? In all literature, printed and digitally, 9/10 cats (prefer whiskas kitty food) say it was successor to Centurion, and defined as an MBT (the marketing spin of the 50s/60s). Stop shouting and link something m8.

        • why would they replace the FV4202, a medium tank, with the chieftain, a tank that is most likely going to be very slow?

    • Please elaborate, every time I fiddle with it on Test server I can’t figure out how to play this thing.

      No BS, I’m serious, tell me how you play this thing. I want to understand.

      • I usually play hull down trying to support others or make enemy pay attention to me while others advance. Never go first especially without support. It’s bouncy tank but speed is too low so you cant runaway. I generally like to play hull down so FV fits me.

      • Pop out from different places, use your superior gun depression and low profile to your advantage and keep close to hills and buildings. It’s a very good at exhausting the enemy and harassing their flanks.

        • Hmm…. you guys are actually right, the gun depression is really good, I always have a hard time to adapt to this weird 40km/h max speed limit.

          Oh well, I’ll check your advises once the test goes up, thanks! :)

  12. To say that the Vickers mk 1 would be clone leopard 1 would be stretching things ..a lot … It is considerably slower than a t 55 and overall inferior to the t 55 .unless you give it that 900hp Detroit diesel or the 840 HP Russian v 12 both of which are only proposed upgrades . A far better solution “historically” would be to keep the Vickers at tier 9 and boosting the DPM of the cent 3 and sending it to tier 10

    • Agreed on comparing Vickers to Leo. There’s no contest here, It’s like comparing Trabant to BMW.

      however I disagree with you that it should be at tier 9, it has L7, give it murrican engine and Voila! We have a perfect Tesco-grade tier X

  13. One thing to keep in mind SS, Where you can fit a 105mm L7, you can fit a 20Pdr. The two guns are utterly interchangeable, it was on of the design requirements.

      • Could be, but the mountings are the same. The Breech only effects the length into the fighting compartment.

        I’m waiting for those documents, then I can hopefully show that the FV4202 had a Liquid propellant gun. We Know that the idea was trailed in the games time span.
        That would make the tank have a much higher Rate of fire.

        • It would be interesting to have an option – 20pdr with buffed penetration firing very frequently, or slower firing L7.
          It could be nice “feature” distinguishing British mediums from other nations tanks.

          • It’s already present on Cent 7/1. And according to Listy L7 would be a logical, semi-historical upgrade to 20pdr. on tier X. So, give us a Action X (it even sounds kind of 80′s action movie badass) and Vickers MBT for the top of second branch.

        • I had some info on the Liquid propellant guns at some point but it has been several years since I read up on them… I wonder what I did with the info.

  14. The 20 pounder and the 105 are interchangeable, as the 105 is based on the 20 pounder. I’d like to see the fv as the tier 8 premium and the action x as the tier 10, the ultimate evolution.

  15. maybe we don’t have to replace it maybe if we just give alternatives a bit like the current Russian medium lines

  16. I’d like to see the Action X turret make an appearance since it’s more in line with the rest of the branch. It would have to be armed with the L7 but it wouldn’t be that much of a stretch since the L7 was designed to fit in 20 pdr mounts anyway.

    Keep in mind that the Vickers MBT had 7 degrees of gun depression (source is AFV profile No. 45). Combining that with the fact that it has less top speed than the Leopard would mean that it would have to have some seriously good stats on the gun or it would just be inferior. If they decide to implement it as a a replacement to the FV4202 I’d prefer the Mk3 since it offers better gun depression and it has a better turret shape. It would make a lot more sense if it was a tier 10 for the second medium branch.

  19. I like the idea of dropping FV4202 to Tier 8 and mounting the 20 pounder. Perhaps a few mobility tweeks would be required as well. An elegant solution from someone else.

    Then bump both the current Centurions up a tier with more Hit Points, Tougher Modules, better Crew survivability and better ROF to reflect their new tier positions.

    They could also consider reducing the hit box size of the frontal ammo rack as I believe this was the first rack used in combat so a number of rounds would already be out of it as ‘ready use’. Maybe an old Centurion veteran could confirm this?

    This would help reflect the ability of the Centurion to take substantial battle damage and still remain effective.

    The tier 9 version could have an optional hull upgrade to take into account the added applique armour on the glacis. The L7 would be an upgrade from the 20 pounder, with reduced ROF compared to the Tier 10. This follows the upgrades made from Mk3 to Mk6 versions, so it appeases the historical community and shows continuity of that particular chassis line. Lets not start this line from Mk2.

    The Tier 10 could be any variation of the Mk7/2 chassis onwards, with possibly the Mk8 turret if you wanted some variety in appearance, apart from the already enlarged chassis on this versions development line.

    It is minimal work for WG, compared to making 3 nearly identical tier 10 Russian meds, and the Cents would easily hold their own with the extra survivability, which was a defining feature of this tank, ask any Israeli, Indian or other nationalities tankers who served on one in combat for confirmation.

    my two bobs worth, all the best

      • That’s just bad, FV has better hull armor and is smaller than Centurion, it would be a downgrade or no gain when progressing from tier 9 to 10.

        • Look up:
          “That post you linked is obsolete. It was found out that the armor is much worse than previously suggested.”

  22. I am quite tired of paper-mache tanks. The choice is obvious: Centurion X, and that while moving FV 4202 to 8 tier as a free premium, just like with the T34.
    I am a dreamer, I know.

    • Let me guess, you have 60% of battles in IS-3 aaaaannnddd you mostly get killed by tanks that were paper-prjects?

      Solution ?

      REMOVE THE PAPER TANKS

      THEN YOU’LL PWN

      =PROFITxDDDDD

      • I think he’s referring to the armor, meaning he doesn’t like tanks with armor that might as well be tissue paper against anything that shoots at it (i.e. BatChat 25t, Leopard I, Waffentraeger E-100 on the gun shield etc.)

  23. Will this fall through the same way that the equally unhistorical FV 215b (HT) thing fell through? I am sure I read in several places that the HT ‘variant’ fell over, and the historical one was the 183. Is that right?

    (Long time lurker, first time poster – love the blog man!)

    • Yeh, historically the only Fv215 prototype designed mounted the 183mm gun. There was no project to mount the 120mm, which was already on the cheiftan at the time,

      • Errrmm Chieftain ? are you sure? Wasn’t it Conqueror ? Only prototype Chieftain had rifled gun, the production model had smoothbore gun iirc.

        • Errrmm yes? British tanks still have rifled guns in their MBTs because they fire HESH at tanks and APFSDS at softer targets. And the Chieftain used the L11A5 120mm gun.

        • Sorry, I was indeed confusing the conqueror with the chieftain there. Too many c words! The conqueror was the contemporary design with the fv215. Cheiftan came several years after

  24. Well, how many of the tanks in game isn’t unhistorical anyway? Just look at tiger 1 with long 88, tiger 2 with 10,5, etc

    • “Other suggested improvements included a new main weapon (10.5 cm KwK L/68).”
      -Wikipedia

    • Don’t forget the KV-1′s 57 mm 413 gun, which in fact not only was never fitted on the KV-1, but never existed in the first place. It was added simply to prolong the grind on a tank that already takes forever to elite because of having to unlock three tier 6 Heavies from the same vehicle (though on the other hand this is also quite good because it gives you three new tanks to play with).

      • The 57mm DID exist. As a design drawing.

        The 57mm was drawn up to be an exact swap out for an existing gun. Thus, it is in the game.

        Read the previous “Fake Tanks” articles…(last week or so) or better still the articles covering the Russian tanks from EE on the History.

  25. Use the FV4202 in its historical form as T8 prem, and any of those 2 as the t10.
    That would make sense

  26. Put the Action X Centurion with the 20pdr as the tier X of the current med line and make it fire APCR which has 258mm pen and buff the alpha to 280. Put the Vickers MBT as tier X of the (possible) other med branch with the Challenger (Cromwell) leading from the Comet to be tier VIII and Charioteer as tier IX.

  28. As a current FV4202 user, I think the Cent X would be good. Pen increase on the 20 Pdr or the 105, I’m be happy either way.
    I could then get rid of the fairly underwhelming Matilda BP as my Brit premium medium with a ‘free’ Premium FV4202!
    And WG still profit as I’d probably need to use gold to shift the FV4202 crew into the new tier X Medium.

  29. they will never replace anything. why replaye a T10 when then can do another branch …

    • Because apparently the T-54 is the only tier 9 medium tank that will be allowed to unlock two (soon to be three, possibly four) tier 10 mediums from it. Why? Because Russians.

  30. Please don’t do anything to my FV4202. Its the only tank i ever seen bounce four clips of the WT Auf E-100.

  31. The sensible part of me says go with the Vickers. A light, mobile tank with the L7 is never a bad thing.

    Buuuuuuut the part of me that has loved the Centurions and the 20pdr says go with the Action X. And give it the 20pdr! But with something like a 2.5-3 sec reload and laser accuracy. Don’t even have to buff the accuracy. If you give me a DPM machine like that I will be so freaking happy because I’m actually hating the L7 on the 7/1. I miss dat rate of fire…

    • How about make the 20pdr gun fire APCR with 258mm pen and buff the alpha to about 260-290.

      • 50kph top speed isn’t enough with that armour.

        I would keep the FV4202 rather than either of these.

        The problem with it is it was a one-off testbed, not intended for action, as such a bit of artistic licence in what might have been a production model is better than trying to shoe-horn an historical tank into the slot.

        Just fix the cupola, give it faster aim time or less spread on the move, or both so it doesn’t have to sit out in the open getting shot at.

    • Indeed, especially since the Vickers MBT would more or less be a Leopard 1 clone in terms of gameplay, not that WG cares about this, what with there being so many other tanks that are so similar in playstyle, hell many of them are variants of each other:

      -Four M4 Sherman variants (with more on the way once the Commonwealth/Lend-Lease branch of the British tree is finally added)

      -Three Pattons (M46, M48 and M60 granted the last one’s a Clan Wars reward tank)

      -All four of the tanks developed with the T29 hull (T29,T30, T32 and T34)

      -The British low-tier Cruiser tanks, which up until tier 4 might as well all be the same tank in terms of performance

      -Both of the German top-tier heavies being superheavy tanks instead of regular heavy tanks that still have a reasonable degree of mobility

      -Six tanks all derived from the original basic KV hull design, half of them at tier 6 alone (KV-1, KV-2, T-150, KV-1S, KV-220 and KV-33)

      -The IS-3, IS-8 and five heavy tanks derived from them and basically play identically (the other five are the Chinese heavies from tiers 8 to 10), four if you don’t count the Chinese-server-exclusive WZ-111.

      -And the most blatant case, a whopping thirteen tanks derived from the T-54 (and the Chinese copy of it, the Type 59, and yes, I’m counting the T-62A and Object 140, as for all intents and purposes they’re just advancements on the same basic pattern established by the T-54 in the first place), twelve if you don’t count the Chinese-server-exclusive Type 59 Gold, with at LEAST two more on the way.

  32. If I wanted a light and agile unarmored med I would have gone up the German line.

    The FV4202 is an amazingly fun tank already, one of the few medium tanks I keep racking 5k+ potential damage in, last night even took 6k and kolobanovs (and that’s not even near my record).

    I’d prefer they just buffed the current 4202 with higher top speed or better turret armor, but if they were forced to replace it then the centurion X it would be, or the chieftain prototype.

  33. Being an Indian, the Vickers would be pretty cool (go around boasting to Australians about how there are still no Australian tanks in-game).

    However, I would much prefer the Action X Centurion because it fits the line’s “flavour.” The Centurions are slow (yet maneuverable) and relatively well armoured vehicles. If there were a Vickers, then it would be too much of a surprise that you would have been better off playing as the Japanese or the Germans.

    • Actually, one Australian tank: the Sentinel, is due to be added to the game when the Commonwealth/Lend-Lease tree is added sometime either mid-late this year or early next year iirc. Whether it’ll be a normal tank or a premium, that I cannot say.

      Also the Vickers MBT is still a British design, not Indian.

  34. Finally the something on my beloved FV42o2 . The answer is simple. Instead of messing around with the action x centurion nerfing it buffing it and all. Just give us the MBT give it .3 accuracy like the leopard 55kph speed and high rof mybe 6.5 rounds per minute. Then change the ammo price on the mk1 centurion since its almost like firing apcr every game for some reason they never fixed taht flaw.

    The indien panzer doesnt have crazy priced ammo.

    • Rephrase give .29 accuracy let it have the most accurate gun in the game with good rof. To compensate for its 55kph and low armor. The action tank would be ok but kind of bored since ive been through 2 centurions do i really have to have another one. Silent stalker do you know something about this that your not telling us. Please do tell us because i greatly need a new medium. Im getting the leopard pt a tomorrow. Problem is im British and i want a British tank to to use at tier ten , The fv is great i can get 5 to 6k damage in a good game but its handicapped by turret armor and speed,

      I think you know something silentstalker spit it out. hahaha
      Thanks for bringing the topic up the British line needs some attention.

  35. If take current FV over both. FV has insane armor for a medium tank, good gun, decent mobility. I don’t need no less armored or undergunned tank, my FV is fine.

  37. I’m not sure what the issue with the L7 in the FV4202 or even for that Action X Centurion is, being the L7 was designed to fit into the same mounting of the 20pdr and if memory serves the L7 is just a rebore of the 20pdr barrels.

  38. I’d love to see the FV4202 or the Action X as a tier 8 premium, and the Vickers MBT become the tier 10, and the T34 problem can be easily solved, replace the FV4202 for the Vickers MBT as the tier 10, then in the next patch, reintroduce the heavily nerfed FV4202 or the Action X as the tier 8 premium.

  39. After reading the comments I just think leaving the Fv4202 as is, is the best option IMO just buff the turret armour and speed and camo and ROF

    • The FV4202 armour and speed are already hilariously exaggerated from what it was historically.

    • I say just leave it unchanged. All it needs to be a great rather than good medium is to get HESH fixed by adding lots of normalization; how hard is that…really?

      If people are worried about historical accuracy I’ve got a tier 10 German TD for you to look at first

      • The reason they won’t add that normalization on HESH you asked for is simple:

        The Fv215b 183. There’s a reason its nickname is the “Death Star”, a nickname that USED to apply to the Jagdpanzer E-100 (which I call the “Death Star I”, and the Fv215b 183 the “Death Star II”).

  40. Hey SS they’ve said that the FV215b was also unhistorical and there was the possibility of it being replaced. Could you do a similar article about possible replacements for British tier 10 heavy?