Amphibious tanks in World of Tanks?

Hello everyone,

not so long ago, I wrote about airborne tanks and how pointless they would be in World of Tanks battles. Let’s have a look at the other category, that is sometimes brought up in various World of Tanks proposals and there was a time when players were asking “what about amphibious tanks?” quite often. Since then, this question appeared somewhat less, but it still pops up every now and then. Let’s have a look at it.

Short summary of amphibeans

There are technically three ways for a tank to cross a deep body of water without someone else’s assistance. First (and probably the least important in our context) is deep fording. The vehicle is converted with a fording kit (usually a large snorkel), that allow it to basically ride on the bottom of the water body. A lot of tanks can actually do this in a limited way, including for example the Leopard 2 or T-54 (the T-54AR is a Czechoslovak modification of the T-54 medium tank for deep fording). This is obviously pointless in World of Tanks, as it would completely break the game balance on some maps, if regular tanks could go underwater. Additionally, it would create the same issues as the other amphibious variants, but on even larger scale. We’ll get to that. It’s worth noting that the Maus was theoretically capable of deep fording too, but only with the help of another Maus.

Second are “native” amphibious vehicles, eg. armored vehicles, that are constructed specifically to float on water. There are several of these tanks technically viable for World of Tanks in fact, but they invariably would belong to very low tiers.

T-37-1

Above, you can see the Soviet T-37 amphibious tankette. The development of these light floating vehicles begun in 1931 or so in Britain by Vickers – Britain was not interested and therefore Vickers sold the design to Russia, where it was gradually developed into the line of T-37, T-38 and T-40 amphibious tankettes. These vehicles were equipped only with a 7,62mm machinegun (the T-40 had a 12,7mm though) and had extremely thin armor (4-14mm on T-40), making them tier 2 at best (T-40). In real life, these vehicles were (just like other tankettes) not very successful and practically disappeared after 1941. Another country with “viable” design would be probably the USA and its LVT series (specifically LVT(A)-1 and LVT(A)-4) – the two models mentioned were equipped with what was basically an M3 Stuart or M8 Scott turret. Extremely lightly armored, these vehicles saw service with the US Marines in the Pacific and some remained in service well until the 50′s.

Iwo_Jima_amtracs_crop_LVTA4

This is by the way where China could come in, as it was found out that in China, the LVT vehicles were actually converted into tank destroyers by mounting the ZIS-2 57mm gun.

LVTs with ZiS-2s

An unlikely “candidate” would also be Czechoslovakia, that in fact created three amphibious tankette projects before the war (ŠOT, ŠET, F-4-H), quite an odd choice for a country without its own sea.

Either way, that gets us to the third category (that is possibly the most famous), the conversions. Before and especially during the war, there numerous attempts to make various “regular” tanks float, so they could cross bodies of water. This was a category the British were very interested in. Probably the best known is the Sherman DD (Duplex Drive), where additional floaters and a amphibious propulsion system (propellers) were added to the Sherman by British engineers (based on the Straussler floater system, named after its Hungarian inventor). Sherman DD’s actually saw successful service during D-Day (although some were lost), so the device worked. The British tried to convert other vehicles to the DD system (specifically, Valentine, Cromwell and even Churchill) with various results, but none were as successful as the Sherman DD.

DD-Tank

The Americans also had such a device, called “T-6″, it was used in the Pacific, but it wasn’t apparently as widespread. Another nation with convertible tanks were the Japanese – most notable of them being the Type 2 Ka-Mi. Although it was designed as an amphibious vehicle in the first place and as such it should theoretically fall into the second group, for land operations, it could be converted into a “regular” vehicle by removing the large floaters, resembling a boat. Ka-Mi design was somewhat successful and was used practically until 1945, although mostly not in the role it was intended for. Only 184 units were made – it was quite a complicated vehicle to produce and later (during the island defense battles) there was no real demand for amphibious operations. Its two successors (Ka-Chi and Ka-Tsu) were not mass-produced.

Amph_tank_(AWM_099057)

Finally, the Germans were testing two concepts for the invasion of Britain (Operation Seelöwe): the Schwimmpanzer II (basically a Panzer II with floaters) and the Tauchpanzers (based on Panzer III and IV), deep-fording conversions capable of travel on sea bottom. Around 250 pieces of all three types were converted before the operation was cancelled.

The concept of an amphibios tank (apart from the DD Sherman and the Pacific theater) sort of died during the war, only to re-appear in post war years as a part of the APC/IFV concept. The American Sheridan was concieved as amphibious and so was the Soviet PT-76.

In World of Tanks

I think it is absolutely clear to everyone that the amphibious tanks cannot appear in the current game form, as that would be completely pointless. There are practically no maps with large water bodies and the ability to cross (currently uncrossable) rivers would also be redundant: with the addition of more fords to Erlenberg in 8.11, there are enough places to cross any river, should a player desire to do so. The only thing that would happen, should amphibious vehicles be implemented right now would be various abuse of this mechanism (for example an amphibious vehicle could scale down the Cliff map side towards the sea and hide where no other tank could reach it).

Eventual large maps with large water bodies, that would justify the use of an amphibious vehicle, carry another danger with them. Want to camp safely? No problem – go to the middle of a large body of water and stay there. Noone else will be able to reach you. I am sure this would actually make many botters, campers and AFKers very happy, but it also would bring nothing to the game. The ability to appear unnoticed behind enemy lines would require a map big enough for you not to get spotted as soon as you get into water. In this sense, amphibious vehicles would be even more vulnerable than regular scouts, as there is nowhere to hide on a lake and its low water speed would force such a tank to completely rely on the element of surprise, because – if spotted early – it would still take it a long time to reach the shore. In a way, the submersible armor concept (deep fording kit, Tauchpanzer etc.) would make more sense, but even that would break the game the same way the “regular” amphibious tank does: instead of campers on the water, you would have campers under water and what is worse, introducing this type of vehicle leaves no excuse not to introduce such kits for various existing vehicles, which means the gameplay would change significantly.

There are even more issues with the entire concept. For example, the water is wavy, so a new physics movement model would have to be invented for WoT only for these tanks to move on the water. As I also mentioned, pretty much all these tanks are also lowtier candidates, which would make the concept useless for hightier battles, which after all is where most of the players are moving to (apart from pedobears, noone gets voluntarily stuck on tier 2-3 forever). Furthermore, the entire concept of swimming (diving) tanks would be hard to grasp for the newbies (“how the hell did that tank get over there”) only to disappear entirely later on.

And finally, it would also make the camping issue worse (Maus: “Hi guys, yea, I am waiting for the… uh… amphibious tanks to appear in this nice watery corner of the map”). Last thing we need is more heavies “waiting for… *insert excuse for camping*”.

Conclusion

Generally, I consider the concept of amphibious tanks pointless for World of Tanks. Not that it couldn’t be implemented somehow, but it would take many hours of work only to introduce like a dozen (at most) invariably lowtier vehicles (apart from the possible PT-76 – Sheridan is too new and most likely will not appear in WoT), that would potentially screw up the gameplay on regular maps, while creating a whole bunch of negative effects even on big maps with large water bodies.

28 thoughts on “Amphibious tanks in World of Tanks?

  1. “It’s worth noting that the Maus was theoretically capable of deep fording too, but only with the help of another Maus.”

    But… but why two Maus? I don’t even…

    • The ‘swimming’ Maus would draw power from the other at the water’s edge via a cable.

    • To expand on what naughtydog 29 has said above, the Maus used diesel-electric drive. Meaning the engine would not directly drive the tank, but just turn a whopping big generator that would supply power to the elecric motors powering the tracks. Porsche really had a thing for this system, and every tank in the Porsche line from tier 6 and up used, or planned to use, something similar.

      Since an engine requires air to run however, one need a snorkel for the engine to draw in air while deep-fording. With the Maus they got around that by not using the engine of the tank doing the fording, but instead drawing power trough a cable from another Maus on the embankment, with its engine running.

      • does anyone know untill wich debt the maus could go? apart from cable lenght wich can easily be made longer eaven in the field, the only limiting factor to me is how well the sealings where.

  2. Even if we had large water surrounded maps it would be pointless for ‘surprise’. Even the design speeds of most of these vehicles was 6 kilometers per hout max. Meaning you need ten minutes to travel a kilometer. With battles supposedly lasting an average of 5 minutes, you won’t even get far enough into the enemy’s rear to kill arty :P
    For other uses: I agree that we have enough wading points already.

    A little OT: What do you think about the PT-76 as a high tier Soviet Light? With the gun firing HEAT only, it can be a force to be reconed with firepower wise (at least for pen). Bearing in mind, that the Light’s armor is practically nonexistent in high tier already, the even more abismal armor of the PT-76 wouldn’t be ‘so’ bad…

  3. ” Amphibious tank…..it made me remember with BMP….. Oh Operation Flashpoint……”
    ohhhh OFP…that is a great one…btw nerf BMPs HEAT pen and it will be a great LT (its a IFV IRL)

  4. I’d like to see them… especially DD tanks, but I doubt they’ll show up until WG figures out a way to hotkey deploying and stowing the canvas for them. Oh wait…. it could be the same button toggling feature for the Stridsvagn 103 and the E-10′s hydro-pneumatic suspension… OH SHI…. mind blown!

  5. During operation overlord (D-Day to you basic people) almost all DD tanks never made it to the shores of France because they either sank or broke down.

    Also for the Germans there was the landwasser schlepper series.

    • I wouldn’t say almost all of them… the biggest disaster was Omaha beaches landings, but most of the others made it either from the launch point, or in the case of Sword beach, 1 was lost, but the other 5 landed directly on shore because of canvas issues.

      All of these tanks, amphibs, and DD could be part of a specific update just for them, along with Snorkels for fording rivers and shallower water as an equipment choice similar to a rammer or ventilation systems. Additionally, it could allow for Tauchpanzers like the III and IV where they were made to deliberately ride along the bottom of a riverbed with a large snorkel-device, however the guns would obviously be inoperable underwater.

  6. The Leopard 1 also had a deep fording kit, allowing it to traverse a body of water 4 m deep. There is a Leopard 1 displayed at the German Panzermuseum in Munster with this kit mounted. The “snorkel” basically looks like 3 oil drums welded together.

    I have a picture of it on my FB gallery if you’re interested, SilentStalker.

    Something like that in WoT would be imbalanced. So if your team is losing big time, you just hide in the water to prevent the enemy team from winning? That would just be.. well they can always cap. :)

  7. Hmm…this could work, and it would work in favor of a couple of tanks I had thought of to be the tier 7 and tier 8 light tanks on the Soviet tree some time ago: the PT-76 and PT-85 (not to be confused with the Type 82, an unrelated North Korean vehicle that’s also known as the PT-85). Granted, the differences between the two are minimal (the PT-85′s main differences from its predecessor being a cast turret and an 85 mm gun), and they both lack in terms of burst damage compared to the French lights and somewhat in terms of alpha compared to the Chinese ones, but perhaps the amphibious capability could somewhat balance it out, or if not, just give them an arbitrarily-high camo value.

  8. (for example an amphibious vehicle could scale down the Cliff map side towards the sea and hide where no other tank could reach it).

    So win by capping if they do that; you don’t have to kill every single tank on the enemy team.

  9. Well, as for World of Tanks and submersible tanks, I just experienced a sneak attack from a remote island and the tank was nowhere to be seen – it just popped up out of the water (at 100%) behind me, zapped me and drove off. So much for your comment on this being pointless.

    Defeat
    Battle: Serene Coast 02.02.2014 11:54:23
    Vehicle: Type 3 Chi-Nu Kai
    Experience received: 18
    Credits received: 7.875