Hello everyone,
as you all well know, the RU251 tank was announced a very long time ago (January 2013!) as the upcoming German tier 8 light tank. It’s been a year and the vehicle is still not there, leaving the German light tanks end with the less-than-popular Aufklärungspanzer Panther.
Now, I made some inquiries regarding the fate of this tank, because this is not the first time this has happened. Basically, Wargaming has been trying to get any info on that vehicle for ages, but it was rebuked several times by German government. This did not only happen with the RU251 by the way – the same thing happened with the Leopard Prototype B, that’s why we don’t have it in the game and that’s why it’s very unlikely this vehicle will become German hightier premium.
As I said, I asked the EU player Madestcat, who made some inquiries.. Don’t ask for details, but he asked here and there and the answer he sent me was this:
Auf Nachfrage habe ich folgende Info erhalten: Der RU 251 steht auch in Trier und wird demnächst restauriert. Aber auch für den RU 251 wird Minsk keine Genehmigung zur Untersuchung erhalten. Es gilt das gleiche Verbot wie für den Leopard Prototyp B. Tut mir Leid. Das deutsche Verteidigungsministerium will nichts mit Kriegsspielen zu tun haben. Ich kann da leider nichts dran ändern.
“Upon inquiry, I recieved the following info: RU251 currently also stands in Trier and will be restored soon. But Minsk will not recieve the permission to research it. It’s the same ban, like for the Leopard Prototype B. I am sorry. German Ministry of Defense wants to have nothing to do with war games. Unfortunately, I can’t do anything about that.”
This info corresponds to other info I recieved from other sources. Even Yuri Pasholok noted that the attitude of Germans towards Russian researchers is less than warm currently as it is. Wargaming will either have to do with available photos (there are very few) or should start looking for another candidate…
Good luck to WG… WWII era alternatives aren’t viable without some major soft stat magic and the post war ones are quite difficult to research.
It’s a shame, really :/
Wizard-time it is then :D
Or the Pz. Spähkette or how it was called :/ (ugly thing)
And thx, SS. It’s like you saw my comment somewhere asking for it :D
I really wanted to now the fate of the RU 251, but now my hopes are kinda destroyed…
But thank you again SS, for your hard research :)
Huh.
That kind of dick move of German authority.
WG itself is a dick, not the German authorities.
Both arent saint.
But German government is just lol – just like their GEMA…
Lol GEMA…don’t mention them or I’ll start to rage.
Well me being germans and a WoT player i can kinda understand booth sides.
I actually want the RU 251 in the game so i want my government to release the fucking blueprints or whatever WG needs.
But with the recent political events *Ukraine* i wouldnt allow any russian near german engineered military vehicles.
Also germans are really carefull with stuff that inculdes making war and killing people even if it is on a PC screen. Because if something happens all the idiots will ride the nazi-3rd Reich-train all over us and such. That is what we dont want to happen ….
But if they let WG measure the LEO 1 why the fuck are they so bitchy about the RU 251 ???
I think Leo 1 is a such a well researched vehicle that they didn’t necessarily have to visit Germany to get the relevant data.
The RU251 prototype is more than 50 years old – there is no engineering reason to keep that prototype a secret.
Book rats forgot to declassify it.
There are also plenty of soviet archives that are completely classified 70 years after date (i’m sure of it), even though the vast majority most likely don’t need to be. Politics is a minefield…
WG arent a Russian company.
Not sure if troll or serious….
Well they aren’t…
well the Leo1 (like currently the Leo2) was heavily exported to other countrys, so to measure it, WG didnt need to ask us germans necessarily :)
Just needed to ask Australia/Belgium/Chile/Brazil/Ecuador/Norway/Netherlands/Italy/Denmark/Canada/Turkey or Greece if they have one “laying” around :D
GEMA has nothing to do with the German government but the German Entertainment Industry, or to be more precise with the german subsidiaries of international companies like sony entertainment, Fox, MGM, Time Warner etc.
That is a real shame :-/
+1
Hire covertly some western armour historian -> let him gather the info & write a book(s) about these two -> profit? :)
They tried. Unfortunately (for Wargaming), the German officials actually aren’t stupid.
Well, if it was the next day/week after the refusal, no wonder somebody figured that out :)
Anyway, quite a pity, more info about these vehicles would be nice.
Hmmm….all tonk games are from the east. Damned capitalist westerners – Y U NO make tonk game :D
From the reply it seems they dont allow access to anybody.
Nooo D:
My dream of having another nice T8 LT…
Ya know… they could actualy make the tank based on the pictures only, stats such as speed and gun may be easy to find and the rest could be more-less imaginary. Otherwise we might be stuck with pseudo-panther for ages ;__;
And risk another flame from playerbase.
Well, its not like playerbase will even know how Real RU251 perform, but some armchair generals will comes out for sure.
Like that ever stopped WG from making-up tanks
It’s not that RU251 will stupidly OP like no-brainer-over-historical WTE.
I just want to throw my garbage AFK panther to trash can……..
Ehh… seems like this 100k+ exp grinded on AufklP will go to waste… Fortunately it was sometimes quite funny. RAMMING SPEED!
“Even Yuri Pasholok noted that the attitude of Germans towards Russian researchers is less than warm currently as it is. ”
It’s not about nationality.
The plain reason is exactly what the reply says, the german government is highly naziphobic, it goes out of it’s way to make sure the least possible amount of things connect the Bundesrepublik with the Third Reich.
Heck, if they could, they would forget the Holocaust, too.
It’s a policy of “If we forget it, then everything will be fine, because now we’re different!” that will hopefully never backfire.
Because if it backfires it has a good chance of turning into a terrible situation for everyone.
Just as an example that people could relate to, all the americans I know remember the civil war as something terrible, but also as a war that showed what “being an american” means.
To stand up for your believes, country and for your people if necessary no matter how horrible the outcome may be.
If it would’ve been the german civil war the government would gladly forget all about it and hide any piece of evidence behind as many obstacles as possible.
I still remember when I was still at school and when we reached world war I it was a mere 4 pages long and took less than a single lesson to go through, after that we quickly went through the SINGLE page about world war II which summarized it to the number of fallen soldiers on each side and how it started.
Numbers and dates, in case a teacher actually wants to give his students a short test about the subject.
Not our teacher, when we asked him “What about the rest?” he told us we would go through it in the next grade… “sadly” he had to inform us later that week that history would be switched out for politics in the next grade a few days later.
What politics? Well the cold war of course! World war II? Oh yeah, germans were evil, did bad things, lets move on now children!
And everyone I know from over half a dozen different schools had the same issue.
Most didn’t care all too much, and why would they?
The only thing they ever heard about world war II is that germans were evil and did bad things, some stuff about the holocaust and that’s it.
Well I guess we’re lucky history never repeats itself when it’s forgotten, right?
WW1 and WW2 are not covered too much in schools anywhere because that is mostly military history that should not have a place in public schools. What is important in general regarding these 2 wars are the events that led to them and at that can be summarized in a few pages.
Well, this is what I learned about ww2 in school:
At 4:45 the german ship Schleswig-Holstein “started” the 2nd world war by firing it’s gun at the Danziger Westernplatte.
Then a short summary about continents, countries and areas that the world war II took place in followed by:
On may 7th 1945 Germany signed the surrender, which became active on the 8th.
A short text about the soviet general ordering his troops to stop pillaging german cities before he dies in an accident, and then the “death toll”.
Guess one doesn’t need to know more about it.
That’s much better than usual history lesson about other wars. Which come down to “events before it – year – change of borders”.
I learned a ton about the Pharaohs and the wars they fought, a ton about rome from it’s rise to it’s fall, Persia, Greece, England, France, Spain, America, but the most I’ve ever learned about german involvement in wars or territorial conflicts/gains was when we covered the very early imperialistic age.
Mind you I enjoyed learning about foreign history, it always is interesting to see how different some things are, and how very… very similiar others are.
However it always kinda struck me as weird that I learned more about other country’s history than my own.
>Mind you I enjoyed learning about foreign history
Yeah, that paragraph:
“On may 7th 1945 Germany signed the surrender, which became active on the 8th.
A short text about the soviet general ordering his troops to stop pillaging german cities before he dies in an accident, and then the “death toll”.”
tells a lot about “political vector”.
I had a full history chapter about the WWs when I was at school.Causes, events at the beginning of the wars, important clashes, strategies, other stuff and the outcome of the wars with cassualities and results.
Man you’re lucky
pretty similar here. canadian education is fairly decent now that I’m seeing what other people were taught.
The thing is, this wasn’t a product of the Third Reich. It’s from 1963 for fuck’s sake, Hitler is dead and gone! They are doing a mistake of viewing tanks as something other than history. To me, all old tanks are pieces of history and nothing more.
No – you’re all wrong. Re-read the text!
It says that the german gouvernment doesn’t want to support or be connefcted to war games.
So while this is of course a result of the german gouvernment to take a rather pacifistic stance out of historical responsibility it is not to forget or supersede the Third Reich as a part of german history.
This responsibility is actually very present in german society and politics.
So the sole reason for officials – be it gouvernment or museum authorities – to refuse cooperation in the case of these war equipments is to not encourage and support entertainment media dealing and maybe downplay war.
This is connected to the agenda mentioned above and also a very sensitive topic in german society and media. War games are subject to public controversies every now and then and have a very bad stance.
However I wonder how PTA data was retrieved? I mean Leopard I data could be gained via various sources in countries that equipped their armies with that one but PTA as a prototype is probably something that didn’t “left the house”.
As for animosities against “russians” go (a bad terminology as political issues are not ethnical issues) – I don’t know if current politics or controversies between EU and russia also concern or include belorussia.
So I really think the reason given is a valid one without any resentiments tied to current problems in the east.
In addition.
Some people seem to think that gouvernmant refusal is tied to a limited cabinet like as if chancelor Merkel was asked by WG or deputies of the concerning gouvernmental department if they can research that particular tank.
No – there is a certain department dealing with requests like this one and they have a guideline to operate. So if a major rule or a certain clerk’s personal opinion or office agenda – which probably was set way before WG even thought of making a tank game – says no cooperation with entertainment media that sell war as kind of fun and leisure entertainment it has nothing to do with political and economical agendas of a temporary conflict.
It is much too menaingless to make an impact on politics – Merkel probably doesn’t even know there is a game “World of Tanks” and if she knew she would just say it is a bad thing as a whole and not because it came from an eastern company….
If it really were like that gouvenment would try to block the game entirely form the market.
But politics work different – they refuse or limit energy exchange and stuff like that which has more impact and puts more stress on politicians and their nation’s economics than denying a piece of date on an exhibition peace in some tank museum….
I think you’re looking at it from the wrong angle.
I’m not stating that denying access to data for a several years old tank
for a videogame is a direct result of government decisions.
Government here meaning the politicians in charge of leading the country.
I’m stating that it’s a passive side-effect from the government trying it’s best to make any kind of information regarding the bad sides of german history as unapproachable as possible.
This “Peacify everything” theme goes through every office, including the BPjM whose duty it is to rate videogames and ban those that are a potential danger to the society.
Due to the radical behaviour from the government it doesn’t even need a direct order to put sanctions or specific rules for “wargames”.
Mind you these are the same guys that demanded for over a decade that Westwood/EA change the infantry in Command&Conquer to robots, because “Wargames with humans can’t be tolerated”.
This is again not directly influenced by the government’s way of dealing with germany’s history, but it is passively effected by it.
Well the Bundeswehr and its entity as armed forces with respective equipment is nothing the german gouvernment is ashamed for or tries to cover up.
It is not part of “bad sides” because in its base self understanding and foundation the bundeswehr is a passive defence force.
There was no involvement of the regular armed forces in conflicts prior to the 90ies apart from medical and logistic support.
So the Hanomag RU 251 is nothing the gouvernment has to get defensive about.
It’s all about the official moral conflict of german public around anything concerning violence, war and militarism as well as extremism of course.
It is actually a good attitude just that it goes a bit very far or maybe we as gamers just feel it that way.
I personally think that violence can’t be contained or prevented by banning violence in games or media in gerneral.
I personally think people can develop or evolve into violent characters no matter of how much a society spends on morlistic education and restrictions.
(Actually I think creating taboos just motivates to adapt such banned patterns as alternate or rebellic counter movement.
There needs to be control but also reflection and work with problematic topics.)
However the predominant public opinion in germany is that violence in media is something that has to be controlled and in some cases banned because of afore mentioned conclusions that violence in games provokes unwanted desires and/or behaviour that might evolve in movements or single actions threatening safety and piece of the society.
My personal conclusion ist – that society (driven by economics and the resulting politics) no matter how many moral standards they claim to defend and preserve nevertheless produces outcasts which in single cases develop into threats for the general public and themselves. The amount of outcasts or even entire masses of people not needed except for consumption is growing more and more as we speak.
So a connection to the evil past is nothing the current gouvernment is afraid or concerned of – it is the other way round from their perspective trying to protect people from violence by banning everything that might create an illusion that war and violence should be a an adequate means of entertainment leading to sociopaths and also into extremism again. It is a preventive measure just like the Bundeswehr which orginally was created to defend.
West allies realized quite quickly after the war that a demilitarized zone in germany would create a hole in the western defence against the biggest army on the continent of the soon to be declared nemesis of the democratic nations. Cold war began and the federal republic of germany got a legitimate reason to rearm for defence. It is nothing germans or german officials generally are ashamed of and see as bad part of history even though there was protest against rearmament as well.
People might disagree but that is the public perception.
The thing is, the whole “concern about military, violence, war and alike” comes from Germany’s history.
From the old germanic tribes, over the Holy Roman Empire and Prussia to Germany, all up to 1945 Germany’s history was of bloodshed and war.
Obviously that goes for basically every nation in existance to some degree,
and obviously there were long periods of peace in between the conflicts,
but looking back at Germany’s history, it’s just as violent as the british, russian, austrian or ottoman.
World war 2 changed this entirely into the complete opposite.
All up to this point most nations were still trying to figure out how to “gain over the others”, however with the end of world war 2 and the following cold war this changed completely for most nations.
I’d say that as bad and aweful the war in many aspects was, it also gave us the peace we have nowadays, even if it is wonky at times.
That is where in my opinion the importance of the Third Reich history of Germany comes from and why just “brushing over it” is having a huge negative impact on Germany and thus influences such things as videogames, too.
The “peace and prosperity” policy is great, as a former soldier I’d rather not see another Afghanistan (or worse), however the german government takes it too far.
The fear of repeating the past by remembering is still a clear influence in many aspects of the government’s decisions, and thus also effects offices working under it.
And one of the things you mentioned is the best example for this.
“Well the Bundeswehr and its entity as armed forces with respective equipment is nothing the german gouvernment is ashamed for or tries to cover up.”
As a former soldier I can tell you it’s quite the opposite.
It has gotten better in the past 5-6 years, but honestly?
The Bundeswehr is something a lot of politicians see as a “necessary evil”.
This includes every part of the german government.
It became openly visible with Afghanistan, the “war on terror” and the retired minister of defense Guttenberg.
Afghanistan was and still is a mess for many german soldiers.
To begin with politicians only sent troops there, because they couldn’t “keep their hands out of it” anymore.
Those troops suffered from equipment shortage, supply shortage and laws (example: ROEs) that prohibited them from conducting their duties.
All while the government tried to cover the harsh reality up by only feeding very selective information to the public.
To a certain degree every nation does this, nobody wants to show their population the grim sides of war.
That would lose you votes in the election, after all.
Of course you can argue that it’s a good thing to hide these things from the general public as they can’t possible understand the whole situation.
However I believe that this is just as wrong as denying a tank’s data for a videogame.
It’s spoonfeeding the population only the information you want to give them, it sounds good at first, after all the average joe can’t possibly understand the in depth positives and negatives political actions like this bring about,
but then a thought should cross your mind.
“Isn’t that a form of propaganda?”
And as for Guttenberg… well since I’ve written another wall of text already I’ll keep it short.
He tried to revolutionize the Bundeswehr by making it more modern and with that more effective.
While doing that he also tried to make the Bundeswehr’s actions more visible to the general public.
And then he was kicked out for an arbitrary reason like “He stole his doctoral thesis”.
Go figure…
Well put indeed! :-)
Retia i noticed that. What kind of a fucked up country forgets his history just like that as it never happened? this is so stupid somehow i even think it’s the result of some super secret CIA black project to brainwash these nazis to “be calm” so the nazi monster will never awake again in them germans. You know like those sedation/calm exercies Dr. Bruce Banner does so it will not become the terrible beast Hulk.
If everyone will go by this logic, we would all have to forget how the indians were purged from NA too. Imagine Russia forgetting Stalin for all the crimes he did and give a law to ban his name or the word soviet union. The entire population would go crazy!
I still dont know how can a country deny it’ history like that. There’s lots of crazy experiments which have happend in the past, so yea il stick to my CIA taming the nazi animal theory. There is an animal in each and one of us. But in germans there’ s a nazi animal!
The situation with Stalin is quite significantly different, most Russians view him as a man of the state, and they consider USSR to be the best and most glorious part of their history. In fact, most Russians WANT the Soviet Union to come back to life. It’s a cultural thing in Russian, that they can even be opressed like noone else, but they need their country to be THE biggest and strongest, and they want to be feared of by other nations.
First of all, I am German, and the way you are putting all Germans down as containing a “Nazi” animals just shows what kind of scum you yourself are. I doubt you really know anything about Germany or the Germans of today. There is certainly not more of a “nazi” beast in me, and in all my friends and work colleagues than in any other person from another country – maybe even rather less, since Germans have gone a long way of changing their mindset and attitude towards other peoples. There is less racism in Germany than in countries with a less broken relationship with their own past, like e.g. in France or Great Britain.
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Second, there is a “nazi” animal in every nation, because that “nazi” animal simply is a racist murderer, and you will find that in French, English, Spanish, Dutch and American history, just to name a few. As far as organized mass murder goes: Actually the purges Stalin did among the Russian population were far better thought through and organized than the genocide the Germans committed (without trying to apologize that at all). Concentration camps have been an English invention (first used in South Africa on the Boers). Many European countries have a long history of atrocities against Jews, Russia being one of the first. Isn’t “pogrom” a Russian rooted word?
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So why don’t you just put your head back in your behind and stop posting more mental diarrhea here?
The WWI hiding thingie is so retarded. I mean, hiding WWII is bad aswell, but in WWI that was no Germany’s fault. Forgetting about the fact that it was Entente who declared war on Germany, EVERY country in Europe wanted war back than. People were festing all around when the war started.
Also, how it started: Serbian terrorists kill Austro-Hungarian prince. Austro-Hungary decides to teach Serbia its lesson. Russia declares war on Austro-Hungary, defending the Serbians. Germany, who was an ALLY of AH, declares a war on Russia – to help his ally (so natural thing). England and France declare war on Germany (they might’ve been allies with Russia, don’t remember). And voila! We’ve got our world war. No fault on German side, if I’m to be honest.
As for WWII, I can’t guess if you are being sarcastic or not at the end, but I suppose yes. Then, you’re hell damn right, ppl forget about what happened and then fall into the very same loop of events. Hopefully Holocaust won’t repeat itself (altough I’m pretty sure it will, and it might actually come quite soon…).
What happened to Germany after the WWII is in my opinion the 3rd biggest national tragedy (first one being communism in Poland, second post-war Japan – but being a Pole I’m a little biased, enough said both societies collapsed morally and customarily). The terror of the War stroke Germans so hard they became probably the most peacfull European nation, partially together with western Europe. This, coupled with post-collonialism situation, made western european nations feel sorry for what they did in the past, and recklessly try to boost economy by inviting tons of immigrants, giving them huge social privileges. Nowadays we gather the fruits of those actions, seeing how Western Europe collapses upon shouts of muslim and black population. I am not racist, I do not hate anyone for what color his skin is, but those immigrants have transformed Europe, and will transform it even more.
I’m pretty sure that in next 15-20 years one of the following happens:
1) Muslims will become majority and will impose shariah law on native Europeans.
2) Muslims will rise in number and demand more social privileges and more shariah law, the native european community will oppose to them, and HUGE civil war will break out. I’m saying about millions of deaths in England, Franve, Benelux countries, Germany, Sweden….
3) Government/s will notice the danger and will dramatically cut the social privileges, resulting in Muslims revolting on a scale previously not noted (they revolt already, but not in that numbers). Martial law will be declared and police, together with the military, will fight Muslims. Many people will die, and others will be forced out of Europe.
No matter which of the scenarios will happen, dark times are coming.
I’m deeoply sorry about how long and exaggerated post I’ve created, but this danger is huge and is connected with government’s policy to hide war crimes.
I would like You to provide sources for that 20 year prognose.
Sources are everywhere around in the internet media. You won’t see that in the TV, because people would call it a hate speech. Here’s an example:
http://m.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2014/April/Native-French-under-Attack-in-Muslim-Areas/#.U0z4SYY9ogQ.facebook
I strongly suggest you watch the video (just a couple minutes long) and read the text. And then google stuff for islamic growth and crime in western Europe. Also, please read my comments below, as I wish not to write the same stuff twice, and I’ve touched the topic you wish to acknowledge.
The thing about war is that it’s never started by one side or one nation.
It’s always a combined failure of finding a middle point or just leaving each other in peace.
In a war everyone is at fault for it’s start, even ‘neutral’ bistanders can’t fully wash their hands clean, because was there really nothing they could’ve done in the past to stop it?
With that said, conflicts are a deep part of the human life, one way or another it always finds a way to intervene with our peaceful lives.
As for immigrants, it highly depends tbh.
From experience with all kinds of immigrants here in Germany (My own father being indonesian) I believe it’s for the most part those (not all!) that immigrated in old/older age and never accustommed themselves with the “local life”, but instead stayed with “their own people”.
Younger generations don’t suffer from this problem at all, there are no schools for muslims and non muslims (just an example, could be any other ethnical group).
The mix is happening, and the outcome for the most part is very positive.
With enough time adaptation will happen, but the “cultural resistance” a lot of older immigrants possess made it a very slow process.
I can relate to not wanting to forget “their roots” and homeland, but almost everyone in my generation or younger cared less and less about those roots and more about the here and now.
Could it take a turn to the worse and end up in a complete disaster?
Of course it can, the future is unpredictable and a few mistakes can quickly add together to one giant incident that sets the first foundation for what you’ve described.
However this is actually one of the things I feel positive about, due to knowing “both sides” and seeing the process of adaptation being non-existant for everyone in my generation that was born here.
Maybe I’m a bit naive in that regard.
Oh yes, You are mightily naive, Mister. Refer please this “middle point” to current Crimea situation (just to find simplest example).
I was solely refering to the immigrant situation inside my country with the “Maybe I’m a bit naive in that regard” statement.
Nevertheless, you still are – because it’s not “always” a failure on both sides (cases being eg. Crimea and WW2), unless you want to say that one side has _more_ rights than other.
I agree on Crimea, but WW2 is not solely German fault neither. Actually, WW2 was doomed to happen ever since the Treaty of Versailles was signed. It should’ve been obvious that no German society will ever agree with such teritorial loses, and imposing such high fines for Germany led to the crisis which let Hitler rise (be aware, the crisis was worldwide, but it was much worse in Germany).
Get a clue, you moron!
MaterielDefender, could you please consider writing a bit longer response? I can’t really answet anything for that comment :D
Then i will.
We are long after WW2 now and German society agrees to even bigger territtorial “losses” – that’s one point invalidating your claim.
Hitler’s economic “miracle” had been built from the very start on war gains and his social/ethnic policies aren’t acceptable by any human standars (it’s not that they weren’t known prior to outbreak of WW2).
Please notice that the character of both World Wars was very different. WWI was something everyone wanted. After it Germans felt ashamed and angry at Entente for humiliating them. They were also raging at Jews considering them the reason of defeat in WWI (German army didn’t surrender – the government did). They didn’t agree on the loses and they felt the power of German Empire, they wanted this power back. After the 2nd WW, German nation was burned out. They had no power to regain previous strength, besides, they were divided into two countries. Moreover – Germans turned very peaceful nation after WWII, cause of how terrific and cruel this war was.
I agree 100% on the Hitler’s “miracle”, but I fail to see how it debunks my thesis. Yes, there was a crisis. Yes, it was even worse in Germany. Yes, Hitler said it would get better with him in charge. Yes, it got better (for huge loans, that he would have to pay – so he had to get the war break out not to pay them back).
WW1 wasn’t the first war after which losing party was screwed. Quite opposite.
So. while there was a certain amount of, let’s say, “feelings” after WW1 in German society, it isn’t by any means a justification for pushing to WW2 or for annihilation of a part of _German_ society and _German_ citizens (i refer to still _German_ Jews).
And, saying that Germany had been pushed to WW2 is going much too far. You can as well say that today there are even more reasons for WW3.
And Hitler was to pay said debts with war gains.
And, it’s strange that you can’t see similarities to Crimea with all that “protecting minority” thing and provocations. Modus operandi is very similar to what was happening in 1939.
@nixxxie:
Ah, now it made *click* inside my head.
I actually compared the crimea situation to the annexion of the “Sudetenland” before in another discussion.
Yes, I do see the danger in this, but I don’t see how it’s related to my previous comment.
I was solely commenting on the immigrant situation in Germany,
unless you mean that a similiar situation could come up here if things go horribly wrong.
Which honestly I can’t see right now.
The immigrant generation is slowly dying of old age now and the younger generations who were born in the country or came into it at very young age have accepted Germany as their homeland.
Then again history has shown countless times before that a charismatic person with a dedicated group of people at the wrong time and the wrong place can easily cause major incidents.
I was referring to this part of statement, where you specifically said “war”:
“The thing about war is that it’s never started by one side or one nation.
It’s always a combined failure of finding a middle point or just leaving each other in peace.”
And there was Haren in the middle of our discussion, so some of my comments were referring to his.
“My own father being indonesian”
I can only immagine Haren’s reaction to that XD
Neutral reaction mate. As I said, I’m not a racist, I know there are Muslims tired of muslim rethoric (but realisticly, they are just as much “muslim” as most nowadays Catholics are – they just state they are, while they ignore ~90% of their religion’s laws), but the clashes on the streets of western Europe are for a reason. The fact that huge majority of rapes and crimes in general in Sweden is commited by non-western immigrants has a reason, the very same comes for the fact that nowadays there are much more rapes and murders in Sweden (per 1000 citizens) than there were in previous years, without so many immigrants. I do not consider any nation or race inferior. His (Retia’s – her?) father being Indonesian is for me just like any other nationality, it only tells me that he/she is immigrant child, and I’m very pleased to see that was raised in a peaceful manner.
I was thinking at something like “I didn’t expect that, hope she didn’t get me wrong”, but you pointed out you’re not racist, so it should be ok.
On topic, where I live, Italy, isn’t exactly the most “civil” country, so crimes weren’t that rare even in the past, but although illegal immigration is a fact and a problem here, particulary in recent times you almost can’t understand what’s populism and what’s not anymore
Agree on that. Also, as to my reaction, I guess I stressed out strong enough in the first place that I do not consider anyone worse cause of the color of their skin. Therefore, when Retia wrote her father is an Indonesian, I didn’t expect her to get offended. She wrote pretty logically before, so I considered her a smart person :p
Not sure about the smart person part, but I didn’t take it as an insult.
It’s true that the immigration, even here where it feels to be going pretty good can always turn bad.
Like any options in life, for the government to take this one bears certain undeniable risks.
And I’d rather discuss such risks instead of waiting in silence till the powder keg blows up.
Plus I generally am interested in different points of view/opinions as long as they aren’t written in a… less constructive form like by that guy in the comments below.
Well, I’ve written a bit on crime rates in Sweden in a comment below, so I’m not going to repeat myself, but as to immigrants. The problem are multi-children muslim/black families, having no education nor will to work. They do nothing but take social aid, and are very often into crimes. Black gangs are today terrorising Paris, and “Muslim Militia” patrol muslim districts in London, bitting people up for walking with a beer, a dog or a girl not “properly” covered. Don’t get me wrong, there are surely good and valuable people among the immigrants, as are many murderers and thieves in european nations. The point is, there is a lot more bad people in muslim/black communities in western europe. Combine that with Islam’s hate speech and you get what you get. Muslims raging on western streets, shouting out “Behead those who insult islam” and so on. Muslim preachers in England saying that Muslims will soon take over the Europe. That is happening right now, on our eyes, and whoever notices it is called racist. That’s terrible.
A dreadful example from this week – in Sweden it was banned to criticise immigration and LGBT in the internet. I’m sure you can find english sources on the topic.
Here is a full law:
http://www.riksdagen.se/sv/Dokument-Lagar/Utskottens-dokument/Betankanden/Arenden/201314/KU17/
WW1 is not that simple. The real problem was the mindset of the society and their leaders at that time, with Germany being very eager to start a war to “balance” the “injustice” the colonial policy of established world powers like Great Britain or France had supposedly imposed on them. They were just looking for a reason.
What about:
1) EU states bankrupt
2) Welfare state is cut down
3) People want to know “who is responsible”
4) Nacionalists are elected
5) Muslims and other imigrants are forced out of the Europe
Prognosis usually turn out to be wrong.
@ WW1
you wrote
##
Also, how it started: Serbian terrorists kill Austro-Hungarian prince. Austro-Hungary decides to teach Serbia its lesson. Russia declares war on Austro-Hungary, defending the Serbians. Germany, who was an ALLY of AH, declares a war on Russia – to help his ally (so natural thing). England and France declare war on Germany (they might’ve been allies with Russia, don’t remember). And voila! We’ve got our world war. No fault on German side, if I’m to be honest.
##
you Timeline is not correct
28. July: AH declares war at Serbia
1. August: Germany declares war at Russia
3. August: Germany declares war at France
3. August: Germany invades Belgium
4. August: UK declares war at Germany
6. August: AH declares war at Russia
8. August: UK declares war at AH
And i challenge you conclusion
Got to agree, thatąs how it happened.
They wanted a war – they declared it.. They’re just as involved as everyone else. Even more as they were initiators. AH and Germany wanted this conflict and made everything so it would happen. Look up AH ultimatum.
Retia,
I haven’t such an amount of retarded, illiterate, clueless stuff as your dribble here for a while.
.
“Germany” by no way tries to forget about the Third Reich and its atrocities. What it does is to try and make it clear that the Nazi horrors were so abominable that it wants to stay well clear of it. There is no denial or apology of German history involved.
.
I have learned a lot about WW1 and WW2 at school. There was no hiding or denial of those times and what had happened there, nor is there in German society. There is a small group of neo nazis that tries to glorify the Third Reich and to deny its horrors, but these people are a minority and they are not welcome in Germany. Other countries have such idiots and their political parties, too.
.
So stop posting more clueless, biased bullsh!t here, will you?
Take a chill pill dude. We made you what you are today after we kicked your ass. Us americans.
If it wasnt for us your entire country would have been a soviet union state and probably be taken by Putin now as they do with Ukraine.
That’s what I don’t much like about the stereotypical american (USA), always saying how great they’re and how it’s all thanks to them :/
I’m not saying it’s not true, nor that I would have liked things to different, just… I don’t like that behavior.
Ah, always start a well written counter argument by insulting the person who’s statement you try to deny… yeap that makes perfect sense.
I also like that you know best about my school experience and that of basically everyone I’ve ever met in my life.
Obviously since you’ve apparently taken part in our school life you know best.
It’s people like you that make me able to go to sleep at night well knowing that another person will think up my life for me.
Interesting. In the same manner post WWII era is badly covered in czech schools now. Its not so bad it would take only one page of text bad but its similar. Anyway modern history is usually badly covered at schools.
Well, if it will be restored “soon” then it will propably be on display somwhere and WG will get the specification anyway. Let us hope it is not WG kind of soon.
to be fair, restoring a tank is not a quick job. that will probably be a few years in the process.
And where is the “real” problem with that?
The game is full with “historical” tanks (e.g Maus, T71, Waffelträger and so on).
Just make a model from the pictures, put some fancy values for guns, engine, crew and that’s it.
How is Maus not historically correct, as you’re clearly implying?? They measured it from the actual thing in Kubinka.
maus is real
the chassi and the turret are just from diffrent projects and they 100% real
also about that yes they could do that but you know WG makes even the most simple thing difficult
i wonder though how they can introduse the thing WT E 100 which is propably fake and cant do it for a light tank that is requested by numbers
The Bundeswehr is ironically a really pacifistic army. Something like Americas Army would never be possible here (evil ego shooter killing simulations :) ).
If I remember correctly, the only game, programmed by the Bundeswehr, dealt with the difficulty of landing a rescue helicopter on a frigate. Very military, much action, wow …
I have seen a promo poster for the Bundeswehr. Features a rescue helicopter onboard a frigate; with a restless sea backround…
some time ago, we had this amazing promo Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUvUmTssYcU
the Reaktion after seconds: http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/umstrittener-internet-clip-die-bundeswehr-als-ballerspiel-1.1194218 it was taken offline, too much “call of duty – Bundeswehr”
Shit tank anyway.
Thank you for sharing your foughts.
I thought exactly the same :)
So what? Who cares? As long as it’s sexy
With so many faked or half-fakled tanks in game does they really need detailed info to introduce that prototype??
because the shit we give them about fake tanks is motivation to get as much real data as possible?
Well, IMO WG should start from removing fakes from the game… And then use excuse of “not enough data to introduce”.
I think WG got what it deserved for ages. I praise the German MoD here.
So how are the Chances to get an Aufklärungsmaus now ?
There go my hopes for this tank… :(
And where is the problem??? in the end WG uses the values they want for “balance”, is curious they want be historical with a prototype… specially when they need fix it to the tier 8.
They can do the model and internal modules… well, why not start with a Leo internal mode???
I see more viable they want only release in 2014 gold tanks and the pair of new lines promised… if they dont want release the damn lower tiers that many nations needs to have a base for their new lines… do you remember the fail when they try release a pair of low tier tanks for french line??? 2 tanks anounced, show to players and finally they dont release them and un las times they release tanks not planed and not really needed in game.
Couldn’t Bovington “borrow” it for a new “display” so that it can be “seen” by the public…
I can kind of understand the German standpoint, about not liking anything war related, see that games with blood are banned or have a very high rating in Germany. But this is post war.
Bovi do have a couple of tanks which could make German scouts though maybe not high tier.
“Schützenpanzer Lang HS.30″
“Wiesel AWC”
“SPz kurz”
Well, maybe German government doesn’t like games with commie-propaganda stalinistic inscriptions either and that’s the real reason behind this refusal… *trollface
more like *spazoutdumbfuckface
Maybe we should play WT, they dont have… oh wait… almost every game featuring ww2 will have era correct inscriptions.
minus the world wide banned ones ofc
1/10, missed point totally :P .
ok
Well, the sad fact is.. our government (as in german government) doesn’t care about any mass murder propaganda (in games) as long as its not nazi related…
The fact is that there are laws in Germany regarding violence in games, and these laws are stricter than in most other countries in the world. Germany on the other side is a free country, so if you are full age, you can purchase games containing any kinds of violence – except those displaying the atrocities of the not so recent German past. So you may want to stuff your comment, Not_me.
“so if you are full age, you can purchase games containing any kinds of violence – except those displaying the atrocities of the not so recent German past.”
That. I understand banning the propagation of nazi way of thinking, but banning the sole swastika sign in places it was in real life? That’s bullshit.
The 110k xp sat on my piece of shit Aufk. Panther has a longer wait to be used then…
If you are stupid you are called a retard. If you are more stupid you can work in the governments.
The attitude of the German authorities has nothing to do with the nationality of researchers. It has something to do with German history and their resulting stance towards everything having an “uncritical” approach to war, war games falling into that category. Ofc Russians do not have such an attitude, and also generally seem to be rather naive in regard of war and exerting violence to other peoples, so they may have a hard time understanding the ethical implications and issues of conscience others may have here. Bottom line: The Russians concerned should stop taking everything personal and being butthurt because German authorities do not want to grant them permission to researching (historical) German military equipment.
Exactly, we don’t want war games or anything else related to war here in Germany, we rather sell our technology to other countries to kill themselves.
Afterwards we feel very bad about it, at least a bit, for a few days until the next country wants to buy small arms, tanks and submarines they promise never to use against people.
Seriously, there have to be SOMEONE out there who is able and willing to messure the prototype.
It’s not like it was fitted with some transgalactic hyperdrive.. or?
EDIT: I mean, WG can’t be the only ones interested in the vehicle.
Soemtimes this works but is deoending how accessable the exhibition piece and how cooperative the museum officals are.
When my brother researched a certain half track for his rc modelling project he got allowed to measure it after a few mail and phone corresponcence with the museum director.
That has been a private venture and at that time the museum was abotu to get restructured anyway and the some vehicles were much more accessable than before as some got already moved out.
In this case there seems to be a restauration planned and so it might be non accesable and even if – there might be a bareer or certain musuem policy not to get near that piece.
Especially now that they know it is a piece of interest for certain war games.
I hope there is a solution as I’d like to see it in game but for now we have to live with the situation.
Lets steal the RU251 prototype for our Dark Lord!
One does not simply walk into Germany, I need a fellowship!
Who’s with me?
Btw if we are in we can steal some pretzel and beer too.
WG made so many fake tanks. Why is it so difficult for them to build one out of some pics and then do their balancing on the tank.
Why is that so difficulty in terms of RU251 ?
I am sad, because I would be eager to drive tre RU251, but…
I AM HAPPY that somebody said to the WG: “no matter u have the biggest MMO around, no matter how much u offer, no matter u have a fcking bank on Cyprus – you wont get it !!!”
Silly German politics. The entire German stance on games and violence is based on a completely backward understanding of the subject matter and psychology. Some idiot figured that violence in games might incite people to commit violence in real life and presto, all sorts of games get more or less banned.
German authorities are sensitive about war games, but co-operating for a video about the Leopard series? No problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Ko7GIH_QU
Which WoT achievement is that on his beret? lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7Ko7GIH_QU&feature=player_detailpage#t=305
An intractive game where you actively take aim on targets (even if virtual) is a lot different than just infromation about weapon systems and technology behind it. Otherwise there wouldn’t be tank museums in germany and public demonstrations of weapon systems for public audience of the armed forces.
Panzermuseum Münster does have a document on its site about World of Tanks and how it relates to their own view of how war should be presented to the public:
http://www.panzermuseum-munster.de/index.php?id=30
It is at the bottom of the list.
I would like to see a proper english translation about that (what i can take from that – with Google translate – is rather negative…)
Well, almost 100% sure it wouldn’t make profit for WG as much as Waffleshit e100 does so they don’t care. They completely made up a fantasy tank that is so fucking broken on so many leves, but it makes tons of cash. This thing(RU251) would be insteresting, but nowhere near OP(broken) hence it wouldn’t attract that many players for them to be actually bothered with it. If they get info, they’ll make it, if not screw it, we’ll find some other shitank and make it german t8 light.
Are you kidding? They can make tanks based upon a few lines of text (or never existed) but with this image they can’t?
” Even Yuri Pasholok noted that the attitude of Germans towards Russian researchers is less than warm currently as it is.”
Hmm…I wonder why? *sarcasm mode*
I don’t see the issue. There’s pictures, they can make a model from that. As far as the rest WG has shown no reluctance to make things up. Problem solved.
if i see another German or Russian tank added within a 2 month span, i may throw up.
No matter how, I feel a little sad.