Hello everyone,
I would like to share with you a funny story, that happened yesterday. Last night, I was working on an upgrade proposal for the LT Vz.35 (Panzer 35t), regarding the second (elite) turret of the vehicle. I won’t bother you with details, it’s a pretty confusing business anyway – suffice to say at one point I decided the best option to have for the elite turret would be the T-11 turret (from the modified LT Vz.35′s, exported to Bulgaria under the name Lek tank Shkoda). Well, it would be the best option, were it not for the tiny little fact that the turrets look identical! The T-11 was just modified to incorporate a more modern 37mm gun (the A8).
Now, if you ever read my articles on Czechoslovak armor, you probably know that I quote possibly the most important Czechoslovak armor publicist a lot – his name is Ivo Pejčoch and he wrote series of books on armor. Now, when it comes to other nations, the books do have some flaws, but the Czechoslovak research is (as expected) pretty solid. In such a case, you’d expect solid drawings from him as well, no?
Well… check this out.
This is the LT Vz.35 on Pejčoch’s drawing: Great, I posted the wrong picture. This is the R-2 (the rear of the turret is different). Nevermind, just check the frontal part of the turret.
And this is the T-11
Now, compare the turrets. You will find that (obviously, apart from the gun), they are identical on the drawing down to every last rivet. Naturally, at this point, I was sort of disappointed, because the turret swap for T-11 was not a bad idea (and a historical one to boot), but obviously, having two identical turrets would not be the preferrable solution for World of Tanks. On a hunch, I decided to compare the photographs of the vehicles as well – surely, Pejčoch cannot be wrong, right?
Well, check this out. This is the original LT Vz.35 – pay attention to the front of the turret. Comparing the vehicle with Pejčoch drawing – fits.
And now the T-11 – here’s a detail look at the turret (used as a stationary bunker somewhere in Bulgaria):
Now, compare it with the T-11 drawing and pay attention to the turret front. That’s right, the viewport on the right side from the mantlet is missing, so the turrets are visually different after all! The piece of metal on the left side of the mantlet is missing as well, but that wasn’t on other photographs, so I assume it’s some sort of ad hoc modification. And so, Pejčoch was wrong. Even the best make mistakes I guess (personally, I think he was just lazy and copypasted the turret from the Vz.35 drawing).
The moral of the story is: don’t take everything that is written in books as granted. It CAN be wrong and sometimes it is – some Russian books for example had wrong armor thicknesses written for German tanks and they sometimes pop up on RU forums with comments such as “why don’t we have this thickness when it’s in the book”? Well, it is in the book, that however doesn’t make it true.
Interesting…
In another word, for better accuracy try to research on source archive as much as possible.
Even those can get things wrong… But they tend to be better then books.
ah, but if it was on Facebook it would be legit
Always take a minimum of 3 sources and average reality between them.
It is very true though, don’t take a book as gospel because it’s published. Look at that notorious book on Sherman tanks by Belton Cooper. Half of it was absolute poop and the nonsense was recycled for years as truth.
KT vs SP fantasy?
Yes, it didn’t happen. Read a lot of stuff about that and the closest SP was about 150 miles away. They did kill something they called a tiger, but it was probably a panzer 4 by the evidence given and the engagement was in the dark
Having two identical turrets is no option? IS says hello :-)
IS-2 waves back.
And the Schmalturm laughs at them all:
There was one Schmalturm project, but there are many weights for it across all tanks :D
Pz IV S. – 8530 kg, 120/60/60 armor
VK 30.02 (D) – 7745kg, 120/60/60 armor
Panther – 7745kg, 120/60/60 armor
Panther II – 7750kg 120/60/60 armor
E-50 – 8438kg, 120/60/60 armor
And then there was the old Pz IV and VK 30.01 (H) with Schmalturm, with even more different weights. But hey, its the same turret.
You likely don’t have the comprehension skills to realize that module weights are semi-arbitrary to ensure that total weight is as close to actual combat weight.
Sure.
I remember when SerB himself said that according to their calculation, the mass of the Schmalturm was greater than the standard turret. So if it dont fits, you go with your own calculation. Historical accuracy, right?
Otherwise I raise you this: http://ftr-wot.blogspot.de/2013/02/the-schmalturm.html
Can i get my turret traverse buffed now? Or elevation? No, of course it cant be fixed while even the weight is fucked up.
Great catch. There is a sort of self vindication when this happen.
Hello,
appart from this you can see on the drawings that on the LT Vz.35 turret
the backside of the turret is divided into to bolted parts.
Instead of this on the T-11 turret the back plate seems to be made of one curved
piece. Just a small difference but a difference :-)
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is my fault. Because I scanned the wrong picture. That’s not LT-35, that’s R-2 (Š-IIa-R), Romanian version.
There is a small difference between this two turrets drawings. Look at the back of each turret. One has two plates riveted and the second one has only one plate.
Y.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is my fault. Because I scanned the wrong picture. That’s not LT-35, that’s R-2 (Š-IIa-R), Romanian version.
Polish branch will be much simpler. Czech variants of the same tanks are quite confusing.
BTW have you tried Czech branch of the German tree in WT:GF? They added Marder III in last patch and it is pretty badass :-D.
Y.
“The piece of metal” seems to be some kind of restrictor bumper, so you don’t shoot your own gun, since mg is on gimbal mount.
If we are on hunt for differences, it may be added to top turret model, too.
I thought so too, but the mass-produced T-11 did not have it. It was added later it seems.
I’m not sure about adding later, quite a big job for such a small modification. It may be from some late-production turret, though. How many pics of different T-11 turrets/tanks do you have? We could compare how many didn’t have that feature, and which serial numbers are missing ;) .
One small correction; I’m 90 % sure that the stationary bunker turret is located in Norway, not Bulgaria (I read an article on the subject, its part of a planned fortress museum).
Not the article I read, but after googling the picture I found this:
http://www.atlantikwall-research-norway.de/Touren_10_2005_Kristiansand.html
Kjevik.
(for the record, not trying to be a dick :P )
I find to not trust something just because it came from WG.net’s various official portals to be a lot better advice than “don’t trust everything in a book.”
They’ve reneged on so many things. To include most recently finally stating that they’re going to do something to fix “troll platoons.” Which they’ve said they wouldn’t… for years.
It’s like The Rejection of SerB’s Denial 2, The Reneg…ening