VK3001P on tier 5?

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Hello everyone,

with the upcoming changes to VK3001H, a question has arisen: can we expect the VK3001P to be “rebalanced” this way too – and pushed back to tier 5?

Well, the answer is… probably not, but definitely not because it’s historical. It’s a bit more complicated with this vehicle, as I will try to explain. But first, a bit of history:

The VK3001P “Leopard” (yes, it was called as such) was born as a part of the same program as VK3001H: to create a 25-30 ton heavy modern vehicle. As usually, professor Porsche went his own way, using his (in)famous dieselelectric system in it.

First initial drawings of the tank were ready in December 1939 (other sources, such as the infamous Achtungpanzer site, claim that it was in September – that’s not true, by September, Ferdinand Porsche became the head of the Panzerkomission), the author was Karl Rabe (Porsche chief designer). The initial assessments (March 1940) also included some preliminary calculations and subcontractor offers (Siements electrical components, Steyr engines, Škoda tracks and suspension parts).

Krupp was tasked with manufacturing three hulls and also offered professor Porsche in February 1941 to develop a turret, that would carry the 88mm L/56 gun. The design works were supposed to be ready by April 1941. Essentially, two guns were considered: the 88mm L/56 (two versions) and an unspecified 105mm gun (here, it’s unclear, what the barrel length would be, Doyle states it was some sort of L/47, Achtungpanzer states also L/52, but that is highly unlikely).

In the end, the 88mm was selected and Krupp was to manufacture six turrets, three hulls and a full-scale wooden mockup. However, by that time, Porsche development leaned more and more towards the Porsche Tiger (VK4501P) and the program was gradually stopped. No turrets were ever built, and one one prototype hull was made (Spielberger states two). Apparently, this vehicle was first used to test the dieselelectric system and Tiger P components (from 10/1941, possibly until 1942) and then it was converted into an engineering vehicle, that served on the proving ground probably until the end of the war.

Well, so much for history. Let’s compare then, how the ingame vehicle would have to be changed to resemble the real life prototype.

Game/History comparison

The real life vehicle was to weight 30 tons, the ingame is heavier – 35+ tons. Why? Because it’s also overarmored. The real life hull frontal armor was 50mm thick (75 in game), sides were 40mm thick (60 in game) and the back was 30mm thick (40mm in game). The (stock) turret armor is somewhat historical (80mm front, 60mm sides). So, what we esentially have here is a 50mm hull (which would somewhat fit tier 5), 80mm turret (also, doable for tier 5, it’s also possible to tune this by adding a new stock turret and making the 80mm one the second one, viable for tier 5). Summary: armor-wise, it’s a tier 5 vehicle.

What about the engine? Only the stock one is historical (420hp is not bad for a 30 ton vehicle). Doable.

Guns? 88mm at tier 5? Lol. That would be seriously OP. I am not even talking about the 105mm gun, that doesn’t appear even in the game at tier 6. On the other hand, the KwK 40 L/48 is completely unhistorical (this weapon version came to be only in 1942 and by then the development of VK3001P was long over) and so is the 105mm L/28 (AFAIK that was never considered) or the KwK 40 L/43 (same thing).

So, esentially, what we have here is a tier 5 armor tank with tier 6/7 historical weapons. The way it was historically, it was impossible to balance (for tier 6 it was seriously underarmored, the 105mm gun would be OP even at tier 6 and for tier 5 it was ridiculous overpowered gun-wise). The developers had two options: either to buff the armor, the mobility a bit, lose the 105mm, add a 2nd (unhistorical) turret and make it tier 6, or keep the armor, add some stock (unhistorical) turret, drop the historical weaponry completely and keep it at tier 5. It probably wasn’t an easy choice, but they chose the first way.

Of course, the third option would be to ignore the vehicle completely, but that also would not practically be possible. First, it was an existing prototype, not any less historical than the VK3001H. Second, if the Tiger P was to be kept at tier 7, there was nothing from Porsche to put anything on tier 6. In other words, it was simply too good to pass up.

Verdict:

In the end, I do believe that the developers did what they had to do. Must have been an annoying choice (some unhistorical elements will always be there – either guns, or armor) and I don’t think they’d want to revisit that again. So, in the end, I do believe this vehicle will stay as it is.

71 thoughts on “VK3001P on tier 5?”

  1. Let’s not get into the differences within the Typ 100 series. The final version reached up to 45 tons before the designation of VK 45.01 (P).

    • I agree with Kankou.

      ”The vehicle had 75 to 80mm armor on all front surfaces. Side armor was universally 60mm, while rear armor varied from 40 to 60mm. The project was abandoned in 1941 when the armament criteria changed. The army at that point wished to mount the 8.8cm gun in any tank heavier than the Panzer IV which the turret of the VK 3001(P) could not accept this gun (nor could any other VK 3001). The only flaw discovered in the design was the unreliability of the gasoline engines. Experience gained by Porsche with the development of the VK 3001 was used in the development of the VK 4501(P). This vehicle was one of the two prototypes entered in the competition which resulted in the Tiger I tank.”

    • The vehicle in game is clearly named VK3001P, not Typ 100. While the Typ 100 designation was a factory designation for the whole series, VK3001P was a specific designation for this platform, valid from 6.3.1941 until 24.4.1941, while the Panzerkampfwagen Typ 100 was valid all the way until 1.6.1941. So purely technically, it’s correct to refer to the vehicle in game as the 50/40/30 prototype.

    • Why didn’t they use vk3001h(4)->vk3001p(5)->vk4501(6)->tigerP(7) line of progression?

      • Tiger P is also unhistorical at tier 7, VK4501 is tier 6/7 material, VK3001 can be either T5 or T6… whatever you do, you will end up with something unhistorical, so you might do this as well.

        • So? Most tanks in this game are unhistorical so i fail to see any reason why german tanks should be historical.

            • In my opinion it depends on the rearrangement of the vk4502 series.
              If the vk4502 ausf. b gets only one tier lower than now, then i think the vk3001p will stay at tier 6, but if they decide to get the vk4502 with changeable hulls down to tier 7, then they will bring the tiger P as a new tier 6 and the vk3001p as a tier 5.

              But that would be the a massive rearrangement in the techtree, so i don’t know if they realy would do sth like that.
              For now i agree, that the vk3001p will stay. But things can change quickly when the topic of the rearrangement get’s closer to its implementation.

              @SS did you hear anything new (rumors) regarding the VK4502 rearrangement? :)
              Thanks in advance

  2. “Guns? 88mm at tier 5? Lol. That would be seriously OP”

    88 L/56:
    220/220/270 HP 132/171/44 acc: 0.38 aim: 2,3 s (on tier6 meds!)

    French 90 mm DCA 30 (on BDR G1B – tier5 heavy – with paper armor)
    240/240/320 HP 135/175/45 acc: 0.4 aim: 2,5 s

    I don’t really see why would a balanced L/56 variant “seriously” OP on a quite big, lightly armored chassis like the “real” VK3001 P. They could give it a longer aim time, significantly lower rof than currently on T6 meds – penetration and accuracy wise imo it’s ok – compared to the french gun.

          • Ahh, got it.
            Then they could make it a T5 heavy – after all it’s somekind of heavy prototype – like the VK3001 H

          • Wasn’t there few meds having heavier MM weight than other meds of same tier? Indien Panzer was one of them I think. It means devs could assign MM weight individually and thus balancing out the 88mm gun.

      • Sure, and BDR meets with T3 too atm, with a very similar gun.
        So I still don’t understand why would the german L/56 be OP at T5 – after balanced rof and aim time.

      • Read the post again pls silent. BDR is overguned, ELC AMX is overguned so why no german med at T5 with an 88 mm gun?

        • BDR has useless armor, is slow as hell and the gun shoots all over the place. ELC doesn’t even have a turret, or armor. 3001P has quite a thick turret, a decent 88mm gun, is relatively mobile (check the 14 hp/t, not bad) AND has a better MM.

          • Your historical armored vk3001P whould have even crapier armor so i fail to understand how that 88L56 can be OP. It would get anyway lower rof, I am sure of that.

          • BDR’s “useless” armour is thicker thatn that of VK3001P, at 60/40/60+80/70/60, even the turret is same at front. Also BDR has adequate mobility compared to other T5 heavies and nearly the same HP as the VK still being tier 6, so if VK be put 1 tier down, it would have some 500HP, significantly less than BDR.

            KwK 36 is in fact inferior to French DCA 30, having less alpha and less penetration.

            Considering the VK would be extreme vulnerable and with little HP it has to be compensated with SOMETHING. Namely a decent gun.
            I seriously don’t know how this would be “another KV-1S”. Actually KV-1S was untouched from the very release of the game. It was never buffed. (just don’t come with the a “buff by changing the accuracy system” – EVERY tank was buffed by that, not only KV-1S). The whiners simply cannot deal with 390 alpha on T6, but never consider it takes 15seconds to reload and even with the accuracy buff is highly inaccurate.
            I easily engage KV-1S even on tier 5 – it has a non existent hull armour and if it misses me once, I can easily destroy it while he’s on reload.

            On the other hand, I don’t think such VK3001P change would happen, simply because there is no other vehicle to fill the tier 6 gap. You certainly don’t want Tiger P there (with 4501A at T7 and VK4502B on T8 hahaha)

          • Darn it I was posting my own post while that happened…

            That nickname “Leopard” was correct as far as I know, but if that was added in WoT it would case too much confusion. We already have the tier 5 light tank that is called Leopard (from the same time period!), though I kinda doubt if that light tank had this nickname, it already had the VK16.02 designation.

            Then there is the tier 9 Leopard PTA and the tier 10 Leopard 1. Of course, they ideally shouldnt meet at all, the tier difference (3) being too big. But it may still cause confusion

            So calling this tank the VK3001P ingame works already..

  3. “The VK3001P “Leopard” (yes, it was called as such) [...]”

    Only by people at Porsche factory, it was internal nickname for the tank.

  4. No, VK3001P is tier VI material.
    The unhistorical thing about it is only the idiot stock configuration.

  6. Originally I thought the idea with this:
    The VK3001H loses its big turret and moves to tier 5 as a medium tank.
    The VK3001P moves to tier 5 as a heavy tank, while losing its engines and the 75mm L/70 and if the armor is correct, it loses some hull armor too. The turret armor is still good, even in tier 6 due its mantlet and would be even better in tier 5.

    I do not think that the 88mm L/56 is OP at tier 5. We have the BDR G1B with an alpha damage of 240 damage. The 88mm could work fine at tier 5, it would need worse soft stats to make it work (ROF nerf, maybe slight aim time nerf in tier 5) and it would be very fine in tier 5.

    The 105mm L/47 would be indeed OP in tier 5. In tier 6, it would be hard to balance it, as it might have a pen of 175-180mm if this was realized. Sure, there is the ARL 44 with its 212mm pen, but it has horrible soft stats to make up for it.

    I am not sure if the 75mm L/70 would work in a tier 5 heavy, due its high pen. I know, the Churchill I has a very similar gun in tier 5. And I do not remember at all that the 75m L/70 was ever fit in that Porsche turret.

    A replacement for the tier 6 VK3001P would be the VK4501P, basically either a uparmored VK3001P or a Tiger P without its bolted add-on armor from the Ferdinand. The Konisch is not available here and the 75mm L/70 has a rather low pen for a tier 6 heavy. Of course there is that 105mm L/47, but balancing it in tier 6 is rather difficult. There is already the T-150 with its 107mm gun which does 300 damage per shot while having a RPM of 6 in ideal conditions. (with vents, rammer, etc.)

    105mm L/47
    Damage 300/300/420
    Penetration 175/214/60
    Rate of Fire 5.7 RPM
    Accuracy 0.4
    Aim Time 2.9s

    Compatible tanks: VK4501P, Tiger P

    That could be also used as an alternative gun in the tier 7 Tiger P and only on it
    Basically it would lose some pen and accuracy while retaining the good soft stats from the L/52.

    OR the other other solution is to…indeed reduce its hull armor to historical levels while losing some weight in the process so it could go faster….voila, we have a new VK3001H in terms of gameplay! (good turret/horrible hull; same gun depression, same speed, etc.)

    • Oh I forgot something..the Tiger P ingame is actually an uparmored Tiger P, its hull armor is identical to the Ferdinand while IRL it had only 100mm of frontal armor (the “fake” GW Tiger P does have 100mm frontal armor).
      Bonus points that only that one uparmored Tiger P saw ever service on the battlefield if i am correct. The other ones were either converted to Ferdinands or…..I don’t know.

      • PzJagAbt 653 ring a bell ? At last One , if not two , was used for Befehlspanzer . In the unit was some funny vehicles like – Flakpanzer T-34 , Bergepanther wit Flakvierling and Bergepanther with static turret from Pz IV :)

    • I thought about the same solution. Old 3001 h lovers would be happy. Now 3001p is less armoured and less mobile than 3601. It makes no sense. Only its max speed is a bit better, but drives significantly worse.

  7. How is 88 OP? French heavy has 90mm with more penetration and damage. Better armor and smaller size. VK3001P as tier 5 would only be somewhat good/useful and historical with 88. The tank would be slow, crap armored and huge so the gun would make up for it

    • “Better armor and smaller size.”
      o_O
      Am thinking someone hasn’t actually driven the G1B…

      • Have you driven VK3001P, that tank is vastly larger than G1B. It’s HUGE. G1B might not be small but VK3001P is enormous.

        • Yes. As a matter of fact the “Porsche Boat” is one of my Tier 6 cash-cow keepers, I rather like it.

          The GBR “Potato” AKA “Weird Smoker Robot Head” may not be as long and wide, but it’s tall as fuck and the armour layout is plain terrible. Also quite cumbersome IIRC.

  8. During the beta this tank was the worst tank you had to drive to get to the Panther. It was rly horrible.

    • Not that it is much better nowadays… Still you have to grind generous amount of exp in not exactly fast tank with not exactly outstanding 75L/48

  10. I’d prefer 30.01(p) to be a tier 6 heavy tank on the Porsche line to paraller the soon to be heavy 36.01(H)… It certainly drove like a heavy when I had it. Weight and role hardly matter here, Panther and Pershing are both more heavy than medium, even in their historical context.

  11. So, it has the armor of a later prototype, and in Elite configuration the right gun.
    The only problem with historical accuracy then is the name.

    So why even bother changing this vehicle?
    Change the name, done!

    They could add the VK 30.01P hull, when different hull modules are introduced.

  12. “the 105mm gun would be OP even at tier 6″

    And 107 mm Zis-6 is not ? Simply make that thing a heavy, it is as much a heavy prototype as VK3001H is, plus it leads to another heavy so transition is perfectly alright.

        • Yes, or 105 mm Canon 13TR (= similar gun to Zis-6 that ARL44 uses). Nothing overpowered for tier 6 heavy, it could even be balanced for a (sluggish and big) medium since this is the only vehicle it would be used on.

          VK3001P is bigger than Vk3001H anyway, if that qualifies as a heavy …

  13. Refreshing to read an insightful article about WoT realated topic without the usual idiotic oversimplefied blame everything on WG bs, thx

  14. I have a few questions:
    Did your information mention anything about the top speed of it(I mean if the in-game value of 60 is historical)?

    Why do you think a 105mm would be OP? The T-150 currently have a similar gun. Also it doesn’t have to be the same as the L/52 that is in the game but have the L/47 that is mentioned which could be balanced with low penetration(lower than the T-150′s gun around 130mm of penetration) and worse rof becus it is a lot faster than the T-150. The only reason why I could see it being OP would be that the tigers gets a gun that has worse damage per shot but really with lower penetration the tigers should be better,

      • It can’t reach that speed in game with the crappy engine. If top speed is something to worry about, then why IS7 is not trolling every medium tanks? Why AMX40 is not the most OP tank ever?

    • I wonder if some WoT player turned tank driver had ever forgotten about the gun being actually material and driven it into a wall or something.

  16. There are also rumors arround that both VK4502P tanks are going to be changed since its armor is unhistorically buffed in game. Which may mean that possible the entire Porsche branch is going to be changed, I do not know how far this goes.

    Zarax posted a newer and historically accurate Porsche branch sometime, Its that link that he provided in the comments..

  17. Excuse me for the off-topic, but how can I make a question to WG? I mean, to appear in those Q&A questions. Is it possible?

    Thank you.

  18. SS, can you find me the source of the supposed 50 mm armor VK 30.01 (P)? All my sources indicates 70 mm to be the frontal armor as of March 5, 1941.

  19. Here is an idea, make armor, weight, engine historical, and give it the 105 gun. You get a tank with paper armor, boom stick, that is slightly faster than heavy. No, 105mm will not be OP. Dickermax already have it at tier6. Kv1S got much more superiour armor, bigger gun, more hitpoint, while being only little bit slower. What new VK3001P got to beat KV1S is the better reload speed, little bit faster, better accuracy, while the dpm and aim time is almost the same. One can still argue that KV1S is better. Sounds very balanced to me. Don’t forget, gun isn’t the only thing a tank have. Givr BL10 to any other tier8 tank can nake it OP, but just not on ISU152.

    • No 105mm dude, Dicker Max is a TD and should have a more powerful gun. Dont fucking compare heavy tanks with TDs, they should never have guns that are fucking close to TDs anyways.

  20. To all the retards that thing VK 30.01 (P) should get the L/52: All Krupp did was show some penetration numbers. There was no serious proposal to arm Typ 100 with a 10.5 cm gun at any point.

  22. i say teir6 heav 105 with similar stats (hard and soft) to the ARL’s 105 and its own turrent…. but any gun but the 75L48 reqiures second suspension (there needs to be a stock grind). lolz sounds like another T150 i agree and have the 105L47 replace the panzer4′s derp on tigerP making it like the KV3.(troll moment) make the teir 8 like super heavy (KV4) make the 9 the maus (ST1 got downd i think) and to top it of… maus2 with 15cm gun