Japanese flag revisited

Posted on by

Hello everyone,

so, I asked around a bit (or, rather, was reminded) how exactly it is with the Rising Sun Japanese flag (Kyokujitsu-Ki) and Japanese armor. The result was surprising:

Historically, the Japanese used this flag only for the Navy, it was never put on the Japanese tanks themselves. In fact, allegedly the only case of a Japanese flag painting on a tank is a real Japanese flag (white field, red circle) and it was on a Chi-Nu tank and it was one case. The Imperial Japanese Army never used that flag either in general. The Japanese “did use a small brass start near the nose of the front glacis plate, but that’s it”, according to Daigensui, who informed me of all this.

In other words, Wargaming was historically correct not to put this decal on tanks, but of course since there were no such pictures at all on Japanese vehicles, the question as to what decal will the Japanese tanks have in game is allegedly not yet decided and the Japanese flag on Chi-Nu Kai is temporary.

With this, I will be closing the discussion under the original flag article, you can continue here, but please, be civil.

103 thoughts on “Japanese flag revisited”

    • The rising sun flag was used on the Type 2 Ka Mi. Amphibious, but a tank nonetheless.

      • That’s because amphibious tanks were not under army control, but under the navy. The navy also did have SOME tanks traditionally used by the army, and I believe I’ve seen some pictures of those using the rising sun as well, but as I said, only tanks under navy control.

        That being said, I’m ok with the regular flag as an emblem for WoT, for for WoWs, it needs the rising sun flag as that is the navy’s flag, as far as I know, it’s still used today.

        • Essentially, the japanese version of marines used the rising sun flag, but not the army.

          • And even there, whether Japanese army tanks, or tanks controlled by the Navy (Marines), not very many of them actually had either the naval flag (rising sun) or the national flag (white flag with red sun in the centre). They were generally devoid of national insignia.

    • This entire mess with the Japanese flag is not only a storm in a teacup, but an artificial one as well. Korea have economic problems and thus the politicians figured out the briliant plan of blaming it all on Japan and thus launched a plan to smear the Japanese naval flag, despite it having had little to nothing to do with them. Of course so are there some Koreans that actually believe the propaganda, so removing the flag in Korea is most likely a good buiseness idea.

      • Listen to yourself here. Because Korea had economic and political problem, they launched a campaign to blame the Japanese flag? What kind of fantasy world do you live in? Do you think that kind of thinking would work in any place in the world? Does it make sense to you? Come on man. It’d be like American government launched a campaign to blame Mexican food for the economic recession.

      • This is so retarded. So there will be no Rising Sun on japanese tanks because there’s economic crisis in Korea and all koreans are now angry at Japanese Imperial Navy symbol ?

        Clearly its like blaming swastika for recent European economic crisis.

        Grow up.

    • 到底誰在生氣？不是你們歐洲人一直在生氣嗎？前七個月有那麼多關於”Stalin”的討論，如果有些人容易發脾氣，那就是你們啊。幹嗎說是我們呢？搞不明白。

      I don’t know why you are accusing anyone of having “offended little nipples”. During the past few months, exactly who were the ones who were posting giant waves of angry comments about the “Stalin” fiasco? I don’t know about the Koreans, but Chinese opinions on Japanese tanks are quite reserved and calm, especially on Kongzhong’s official WoT forums. If anything is to be proved, it is that you Europeans are very easily offended.

        • Yep, STALIN. That’s something that everyone understands, regardless of where you’re from.

          • If it’s actually written in the Latin alphabet, sure. Less so were it in the same moon-runes as the rest of the post.

      • You have to forgive them, getting offended at things that even the persons that should be offended don’t care about is a pastime and even a lifestyle for some people in the west.

      • Exactly, europeans have a big thing about being offended as if being offended is something that is out of the question, they got this shit from america and their “freedom and democracy bs”

        Steve Hughes sums it up nicely

        ———————————-
        Now you have adults going “I was offended, I was offended and I have rights!” Well so what, be offended, nothing happened. You’re an adult, grow up, and deal with it. I was offended! Well, I don’t care! Nothing happens when you’re offended. “I went to the comedy show and the comedian said something about the lord, and I was offended, and when I woke up in the morning, I had leprosy.”

        Nothing Happens. “I want to live in a democracy but I never want to be offended again.” Well you’re an idiot.

        How do you make a law about offending people? How do you make it an offense to offend people? Being offended is subjective. It has everything to do with you as an individual or a collective, or a group or a society or a community. Your moral conditioning, your religious beliefs. What offends me may not offend you. And you want to make laws about this?
        ———————————————

        People are sheep!

        (watch that sketch http://www.thatvideosite.com/v/2822 )

      • “If anything is to be proved, it is that you Europeans are very easily offended.”

        Yes, absolutely, the EU WoT player base is totally representative of Europeans in general, even though they ‘re a statistically tiny minority.

      • I agree with you, Stalin case showed it is the Europeans who get butthurt easily.

        but if Stalin signs are to be in this game because they are historical and there’s no law saying they’re illegal so should be the Rising Sun in the game as long as its historical and doesn’t interfere with law.

        • But as people have pointed out, it is not historical. Tanks didn’t have the rising sun. That should be the end of discussion.

        • Also it should be noted it’s a decidedly narrow segment of Europeans – namely some particularly cranky Central ones – with a stick up their butt.

          • Yep, I’m an European, and I’m buthurt offended! :)
            Not by the inscription, as it’s historical and this “IS” a historical accurate game but by the way WG approached the whole issue.
            Meaning that I can see the same attitude my grandparents told me the russians had when they “liberated” my country. It’s not hard to “love” that attitude when it brought 50 years of oppression.
            Maybe most of you don’t have a clue about life behind the Iron Curtain, but it hasn’t passed enough time to forgive russians for it.
            And WG behaving like a rhino in a china shop, doesn’t help either.
            Hope this helps you understand better why East Europeans are butthurt. :)
            And not only Polish and Romanians were offended.

            • The Japanese “liberated” the peoples of Asia from “Western colonialism” too, but not everyone from Asia is butthurt about it either. You hear cases in the news about extremist nationalists protesting and burning flags every now and then, and that’s it.

            • East Europeans are butthurt mainly due to national inferiority complexes stemming from recent to mid-range history of unadultered ugliness and failure and no meaningful improvement today either.

              Plus I’d remind you the Soviets kicked out the Germans. Had they not most of you lot wouldn’t even exist today.

  3. They can have it removed only for the reason that they are not Polish… And screw historical accuracy, it’s SerBology.

  5. Wargaming didn’t have only World of Tanks , They still have World of Warships
    And that game got effected greatly from anti-japan case

  6. SS,
    As far as you know, what will be the fate of Kyokujitsu flag on Naval 12cm SPG?
    It is a navy vehicle so it should have Kyokujitsu rather than Hinomaru flag on it.

    • That would be nitpicking it, something people on the internet are terribly good at, the real problem is World of Warships as people is saying, one slightly inaccurate vehicle in the Japanese tree would hardly be much of an issue.

      • Actually I wonder whether it would be inaccurate at all, pictures of that SPG don’t show any flag at all, like it’s the case with most Japanese tanks.

  7. I’m actually wondering if the Rising Sun flag will still be used in World of Warships now since WG has stated there policy on this. While using it on tanks would be unhistorical, It would be rather silly not to use it for ships as the Rising Sun was the naval ensign if the IJN and still is such for the JMSDF.

  8. Army version was slightly different to navy version (less stripes) however was still used. Pictured the Russian army surrendering to the Japanese Imperial Army during the Siberian War.

    • It was used, and still is by the JSDF, but it was never on any of there tanks as far as I know.

    • The one you’re referring to is the Imperial Japanese Army battle standard.
      It’s basically the equivalent of a naval ensign, but a separate flag nonetheless.

      As the other poster pointed out, yes, it’s still being used by the JGSDF as is the naval one by the JMSDF.

  9. Correct; there is most of the cases an apart Navy flag and crest.
    The rest of the Army could get an other insignia; like apart land force and apart air force insignia’s.
    Thankfully it set right by the article, I am grateful for that.
    By the way, I do not like the former Soviet red star but I do not weaning about it.
    Like SerB, if the Chinese or Korean games do not like the Rising Sun, how terrible :)

    • Woot “Red Star” are still used by Russian army. Maybe WG should remove US “White Star” because it upsets Vietnamese players.

      • “Maybe WG should remove US “White Star” because it upsets Vietnamese players.” – but it doesn’t. Find me a Hanoi newspaper clipping that says that Vietnamese are offended by US military symbology.

          • Well, 2 millions Vietnamese people died by starvation because of Imperial Japanese, but no one care a shit about historical icons. They’re just icons, a thing in the past. I still doesn’t understand how ppl get worked up because of some items in a game…

            • Hey, hey, I’m all for the introduction of swastikas, National Socialist-themed inscriptions (e.g. “Fur Lebensraum!” or something), and the uncensoring of crew names that are linked with Nazism. I support freedom of expression, and oppose censorship based on people’s feelings. However, whilst everyone is complaining about Stalin and Japan, they’re ignoring the Nazis as well.

  10. People complaining about Japanese tanks not having Rising Sun because it is historically inaccurate despite real life Japanese tanks never having the Rising Sun in the first place? Ah-hem, let me direct you to the TV Trope article: Reality is Unrealistic.

    • Exactly this. IJN warships used the Rising Sun Flag, whilst the ground armies of the IJA did not. Having flags painted on IJA tanks was not something that was “standardised”, but IJA infantry are commonly photographed advancing whilst holding the Hinomaru (red circle sun) flag.

      People are making a tempest in a teapot out of nothing.

      • People are just trying to force a comparison with the Stalin affair because their haemorrhoids still hurt.

      • It seems though, that IJN won’t have a Rising Sun in wows. At least on Korean (SEA?) and Chinese servers.

        If so – why is the wot eu server forced to re-introduce stalinistic inscriptions? Won’t there be roaming in wows too?

        It. Just. Doesn’t. Make. Any. Sense.

        I wonder, if wot eu players managed to get write a petition and get 40 000 signatures – would it change anything?

        • “Forced”.

          Because someone totally hold a gun to your head to coerce you into buying them. *eyeroll* Now I have better uses for my monies, but the “ZA STALINA!” inscriptions are an iconic and recognisable enough standby of war documentaries and what-have-you that if I were into splurging on such trifles they’d be pretty high on my shopping list.
          And this despite the detail I regard the man as a case study in How Not To Run A State.

          • Nobody forces Koreans to play IJN in wows… Oh wait – the game is not even in closed beta yet…

            • Nobody claimed the Koreans weren’t being a bunch of infantile retards, either. Not that this were anything like the first borderline absurd row between the Japanese and the mainlanders… lots of bad blood there and unscrupulous populists on both sides gleefully milking it for all it’s worth.

            • I would not say that Koreans are a bunch of infantile retards, but it’s just me… :/

            • Not that I don’t see where they’re coming from – I’m well aware of the general standards of Japanese behaviour at the time as well as the weird complications they have about airing their dirty laundry properly – but that doesn’t excuse the Koreans for downright hysterical knee-jerk reactions.

              National traumas, no matter how legit their roots, chiefly produce behaviour that is stupid enough to be painful to watch. An excess preoccupation with such grievances also tends to hamper homest self-reflection and recognition of far more relevant domestic issues (neither the Koreans nor the Chinese have any shortages of such AFAIK), as well as furnishing any number of odious populist types with a ready source of bandwagons.

  11. Well it seemed really weird for me from the start, why would WG put the Rising Sun flag on the tanks… I mean, I may not know a lot about japanese tanks, but I do know a lot about their history, culture and stuff like that…and I did only now rememebred that this flag was and it still is used for the Japanese Navy forces. :P

    • If you weren’t aware, the IJA and IJN were completely independent of one another. Think of them as completely separate entities or departments.

      The IJN also has infantry (landing troops), aircraft and armoured cars; these would all use the IJN flag, which is the Rising Sun flag. The IJA however did not use this flag.

      • I’m pretty sure I’ve also seen pictures of amphibious tanks of the IJN use the rising sun as well.

        • Yes. The IJN has tanks. The IJA has tanks. I don’t know why this is a difficult concept to comprehend for some people within this discussion.

          IJN has armoured vehicles amongst its amphib landing forces; these tanks would have IJN symbology. IJA would have land-warfare tanks, and these tanks would follow the standards that the IJA sets out.

          Both the IJA and IJN have aircraft as well. Aircraft carrier-based aircraft would have the IJN Rising Sun flag painted on the side, whilst aircraft belonging to the IJA wouldn’t.

  14. Daigensui at his/her specialist field :D
    I thought the rising sun would be on all military vehicles :/

    • Not on the tanks themselves. IJN tanks did have the naval Kyokujitsu-ki, but since WoT is focused on IJA, there are no plans to add the army or naval Kyokujitsu-ki.

      • Yes and additionally the Brass Star was only used by the army, tanks operated by the IJN used a brass anchor (lots of pictures from the 1932 Shanghai incident of Japanese tanks with Kyokujitsu-k on them). The small Japanese flag is not bad in that regard because it’s a trans-service symbol used by both branches of the military so it’s not exclusionary and of course is not a controversial symbol that will anger Korean or Chinese players.

        • Ok i concur but some decal changing is going to take place. Cause i don’t care what Koreans or Chinese think about a flag.

          • Wait, so you just want to be edgy, and don’t really care about “muh historical accuracy”? Am I reading your post correctly?

            It’s been mentioned that there’s nothing wrong with the flags that WG picked. If you really want the Naval flag on the Japanese tanks, then by all means do so.

  18. I know it’s not historical, but if they didn’t put any symbols on their tanks it handle matters. Why not use the Imperial Seal? Would anyone be offended at that?

  19. Okay, so the japanese didn’t use a standard symbol on their tanks. The problem is that WoT somehow forces the tanks to have flags on them and we have to live with some compromise. I’m just wondering which flag is the best compromise. Is Hinomaru a better choice than Kyokujitsu-ki? And apart from the tanks, which flag would be the best to represent the nation in the tech tree?

  20. As I said before, stop being too sensitive about these things, it only ruins your own enjoyment of the game (also others, if you whine too much)

    Look, if you hate japan (or Stalin), you should take joy in destroying their tanks — especially the ones with the decals you take offense from.

    And come on… japan has a cut out maxi pad as their national flag, given them a break _(:з」∠)_

    • I’d rather say that it’s not being too sensitive on the community part, it’s wg pr section that goes full retard every now and then. If these guys were police negotiators, or were responsible for crowd control during riots, they would gleefully start throwing poop just to piss off the other side.

      Now that would be hilarious to watch from the sidelines… Until you get caught in the crossfire… Literal shitstorm! XD

  21. Come ON! Stalin not offensive, soviet red star not offensive, f@cking rising sun – offensive. Burn books with swastika and other “offensive” symbols and create your own f@cking history!

    • Your contitution is not basis for law in every country, so you can take your 1st amendment elsewhere silly ‘murican.

  25. Oh well, at least on ASIA there isn’t much butthurt about the japanese.

    The purpose of history isn’t to fight eachother over what happened in the past, but to learn what happened in the past and learn from the mistakes.
    It’s a game with some basis on history, don’t play if you don’t want to see symbols that offend you.

    • And what should the rest do when some russian scumbags try to falsify history (and this stalingate is not the first time, remember the event in honor to the “strategical mastermind” kliment voroshilov?)? Oh, I know! SEND THEM COH2!

      inb4 RED RUSSIAN BUTTHURT….

  26. Hey guys, the solution for this disturbing insignia’s is evident!
    Get a mod which clears the national insignia’s: no red stars, no ritterkreuzes, nothing in this kind.
    Nobody get offended, nobody get hurts.
    And, please, do not cudgel down your fellow tanker for such a trivial issue like an insignia or the name of a long died person.
    And first of all do not make jokes of my Polish brothers! I am actually Hungarian, but it even me are offended by some jokes.

  28. still bullshit.

    which nation put their “flags” on their tanks? armies’ flags and military symbols are different than national flags. tell me: how many tanks had the nazi-flag painted on them officially? none, right?!