Hello everyone,
this will be possibly the last article about the Panther, as we covered pretty much everything that looks like an interesting option for the Panther. Only one “specialized vehicle” is left: the Turbo Panther. Of course, that’s not its real name, that’s a name SerB used for it. You see, SerB admitted (several times in fact), that there is a possibility (not guarantee), that the E-50 and E-50M will be merged into one vehicle on tier 10 (with rear-transmission E-50M being an optional hull for the E-50) and on tier 9, it might be replaced by something called “Turbopantera” – “the Turbo Panther”.
What is meant by that is most likely the gas turbine Panther. This topic has already been covered and there is a pretty good article on Wikipedia (it’s good mostly because its content is practically copied from the A.Kay’s book German Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Development 1930-1945).
The GT101 engine
To sum it up for you, the Germans developed several versions of the a gas turbine, with the original GT101 (1150hp) being designed in November 1944 and follow-up improved versions (GT102 and GT103) being worked up till April 1945. No prototype was ever completed apparently, but the design was sound. In real life, it was however far from a practical design: the technology was not properly tested and it had significant drawback, such as more than double the fuel consumption of the Maybach engines, which was not sustainable for wartime Germany, suffering from the lack of fuel even for its conventional engines. In later GT versions, this was somewhat mitigated (from 200 percent fuel consumption to about 130 percent), but nonetheless the gas turbine is possibly the most fuel-consuming engine type even today. Another significant drawback would be low torque in lower RPM ranges, resulting in potentially poor acceleration, when the vehicle was standing or idling. Naturally, such revs would also pose a significant strain on the transmission (a special ZF transmission was prepared by Zahnradfabrik for this type of vehicle with three clutching levels in the torque converter and twelve speeds).
Naturally, these characteristics would have to be somehow modelled in World of Tanks. I doubt Wargaming would model the different acceleration (torque) curve for one vehicle only (and I doubt any other gas turbine vehicles would make it into the game, the only other one I know of that would fit was the experimental turbine Patton), so what we potentially have here is an engine with a massive horsepower rating (1150hp), but this will possibly be compensated by high engine vulnerability: either a very high fire chance (50 percent perhaps), or with very low engine hitpoints. Or possibly both.
The platform – Panther F
Since such a vehicle would exist no sooner than in late 1945 (if at all), it is reasonable to assume it would be based on the Panther F chassis. I recently wrote about the Panther Ausf.F in an article, so if you are interested in details, I will refer you there, but basically, it’s a Panther Ausf.G hull (80mm upper frontal plate, 50mm LFP, 50-40mm sides) with its historical Schmalturm (120mm frontal plate – basically what is now in game as Panther’s Schmalturm) and with some minor improvements (slightly thicker engine deck and hull roof for example). This platform could go as fast as 50km/h, so this vehicle, despite its massive horsepower, would not be a race car. Horsepower however does influence one more thing: agility (if you want to know, what happens, when a tank, that’s very agile on paper gets a weak engine, go check the Chi-Nu Kai). This configuration has a huge potential to be one of the most agile tier 9′s. In real life, of course this would be problematic: the final drives were not too good as it was and without some serious improvements, the tank would not be practical, there would possibly be huge maintenance issues. But in WoT terms it doesn’t matter that much.
The armor of the vehicle could of course by improved by the Schürzen, the anti-AT-rifle side armor. In World of Tanks there are no AT rifles (at least not in their infantry form), but as a “HEAT detonator” (in WoT, not in real life), it could add some protection.
The gun
Now we are reaching the potential weakspot of such a vehicle (especially on tier 9). You see, there were only two guns ever planned for the Panther: the 75mm L/70 (the Škoda KwK 44/1 for the Schmalturm and KwK 44/2 – a model with a casette autoloader) and the 88mm L/71 (mind you, NOT the one that’s on Panther II, there was a proposal for the re-arming of the Panther, refer to the Panther F article, last part for details, but basically, Daimler-Benz proposed in January 1945 a Schmalturm version with the 88mm L/71, the project never progressed beyond wooden mockup).
Forget about the 75mm L/100, that was just Hitler’s pipe dream (it was proposed very early on – in January 1943 – by Hitler, who didn’t understand the way guns and metallurgy work and simply wanted longer guns and faster shells with no regards to the cost or limits, the whole project got probably silently dumped very soon afterwards). Historically, we don’t have that much to work with then. After all, the 75mm L/70 is too weak for tier 9.
Or, is it?
Let’s have a look at how it could be improved. First, an autoloader. A project (KwK 44/2) was actually made to incorporate a semiautomatic loading assistant device. While the device allowed the loader some significant time saving,it wasn’t an autoloader in World of Tanks terms. Spielberger claims this device allowed for 40 RPM. Allegedly according to some sources (V.Francev), one autoloaded KwK 42 prototype with a casette-type loader was made and tested after the war by Czechoslovaks on a captured Tiger II. According to Doyle, it was supposed to be ready around April 1945.
But that’s just an autoloader, we still have the penetration issue here. For tier 9, both the L/70 and 88mm L/71 are simply too weak. So, what can we do? Well, for starters, we could introduce unhistorical guns into Panther, but that’s not a good way, besides, there wasn’t much that could fit the Schmalturm, certainly not the 128mm (even Tiger II (E75) with 128mm is just fantasy, in real life it wouldn’t fit).
One option would be the 10H64 (10cm PAW 1000), a smoothbore high-low pressure gun (or, more precisely, a thrower) the Germans experimented with. This thing would have 200mm penetration at any distance, but there are issues with it. For one, it’s smoothbore and – although historical – this is not allowed in WoT. Secondly, there was never a project to arm the Panther with it. Third issue is that we already have the 88mm 43, so we don’t need another gun of roughly the same performance, that was designed not to have superior firepower, but to be as cheap to mass produce as possible.
So, there are no historical guns available for Panther, that would support it on tier 9 (remember, current E-50 guns are just fantasy), so we’ll have to work with what we have. I imagine the setup like this:
Stock: 75mm L/70 KwK 44/1
Middle: 75mm L/70 KwK 44/2 ME (Mehrladeeinrichtung, autoloader)
Elite: 88mm Kwk 43/1
Too weak for tier 9? Well, let’s kick it up a notch. For starters, we’ll start using the the gold ammo (APCR ammunition, subcaliber Panzergranate 40) as regular ammo. That’s how we get respectable 194 (75mm) and 237 (88mm) penetration. And gold ammo? Well, that’s the real trick. Enter the Pfeilgeschoss type ammunition, or Panzergranate 44, commonly known as APFSDS.
Yes, the Germans did develop the armour-piercing fin-stabilized sabot rounds from tungsten alloys. Very little is known about them, but I do think Hogg mentions them in his German Artillery book. Discharging sabot German ammunition (known as the Treibspiegel, or TS) is well known overall (for example the 150mm sFH 43 TS rounds, consisting of a 88mm core in a 150mm shell), but mostly it was not used for AP rounds, it was used to extend the range of German artillery (HEDS rounds). If you are interested in this, I wrote about this here in more detail.
Another type of the German sabot ammunition were the Pfeilgeschosse (“arrow shots”). These things were developed by Krupp first for 37mm PaK 36 and were also known as the PPG (Peenemünder Pfeilgeschoss). This is how the ammunition looked for the 37mm gun (compared to the regular APCBC ammo):
Now we are getting to the pretty obscure stuff. There is not much info on the Panzergranate 44, apart from Hogg I think. The core was allegedly a tungsten alloy, but some sources state it could simple have been hardened steel. Such rounds were allegedly tested by Krupp, with following results:
75mm L/70 Panzergranate 44 APFSDS – cca 280mm at 100m (90 deg)
88mm L/71 Panzergranate 44 APFSDS – over 300mm at 100m (unclear)
Naturally, this can be tweaked (as in, “let’s say they used something softer and not the tungsten alloy), but you can see where this is going. A perfectly usable (and historical) gun and ammo for a tier 9. What I imagine it could look like is this:
Stock: 75mm L/70 KwK 44/1
PEN: 150 (AP)/194 (APCR)/38 (HE) DAM: 135/135/175 ACC: 0.35 ROF: 15,79 AIM: 2.0
Middle: 75mm L/70 KwK 44/2 ME (autoloader – for 10 rounds, 0,7 second delay between rounds)
PEN: 194 (APCR)/250 (APFSDS)/38 (HE) DAM: 135/135/175 ACC: 0.34 ROF: 15 AIM: 1.8
Elite: 88mm Kwk 43/1
PEN: 237 (APCR)/280 (APFSDS)/44 (HE) DAM: 240/240/295 ACC: 0.34 ROF: 8,7 AIM: 2.3
Epilogue:
Anyway, this is just an idea how the historical vehicle could look like. There is no point in inventing various fantasy guns. While very limited info is available on the Panzergranate 44, I think WG could work with that. Before you go bashing the OP combination of an autoloader and a powerful engine, please keep in mind that this vehicle has quite thin armor. In fact, it has thinner armor than current tier 7 Panther, as ingame Panther’s frontal plate is 85mm thick, while in real life it was just 80mm. In the ingame setup, of the vehicle weights were kept, it would get 25,19 hp/t however and that’s a LOT. I think it could work.
Panther!!!!
awesome and first?
no
to be precise : yes and no.
Grind with stock gun would be as awful as that tier3 howitzer on ARL V39, or 17pdr on Caernarvon.
Beside, even if it would be an agile and fast medium with autoloader, its hull would still be massive and offering no protection at the same time. Quite deadly (but mainly for user) combination.
Basically a German Lorraine 40t.
Well, maybe the Panther II gets replaced by the Panther Ausf. F, and whatever is ground on that will help cushion this grind?
WG would never make us grind ~50k xp on tier 9 with 75/L70. Oh wait…
Germans seem to lack both pen and alpha every time, perhaps save the most recent glass cannons. Giving them high-end ammo for low-caliber guns, combined with good penetration might be a way of making all their tanks perform significantly better, albeit not quite OP yet.
Leopard 1 – awesome pen, good alpha.
E-75 – awesome pen, awesome alpha.
JPE100 – good pen, very good alpha.
JT – awesome pen, very good alpha.
E-50 M – awesome pen, good alpha.
Did I miss something?
first 8 tiers
E-75 has mediocre pen and not awesome….And Maus has the same pen on T10 which is utter shit. And it also has the lowest DPM out of all T10.
KV-5 also has utter shit pen at tier 8, dosent stop it from being awesome.
therefore maus is awesome
no
Yes, but the KV-5 at least has DPM. The Maus has both mediocre ROF and pen.
JagdPanzer E-100 very low shell velocity. Bounces HP and gold rounds very often on paper armoured tanks due to that. Don’t go blind on the stat’s u can get to read ingame, there are more parameters that will decide a gun will peform good or bad. Anyway, just keep the E-50 and E-50M. The E-50 is my favorite kamikaze ramming mobile.
Waffentragers say hi.
Still in test phase, too early to say how they will end up in the game.
there is just no way that will happen, you would have to hit a tier 10 heavy 20 times to kill it with that autoloader (if you penetrate, wich you wont), and even with the apcr ammo for the 88 it would have to be given a unhistorical rate of fire at tier 9
i dont see any way for this to work at that tier
Alternatively they can make it play like the Panther and Panther II in-game already do, with an average ROF and high pen, but to give it something to rely on, give it OBSCENELY-good accuracy (I’m talking 0.3 m at 100 m shot dispersion max), allowing it to remain as a sniper, but now giving it the mobility it so desperately needs.
The 75mm L/70 KwK 44/1 ME would be the weapon of choice for me. The 250 pen (prem rounds) on a very agile medium tank with 0.7 sec reload in between shells and potential to deal 1350 dmg in 6.3 seconds … Not only it’s a huge burst damage when compared to how quickly it’s dealt, these 10 shells would have enough pen/calibre to deal damage to modules and it’s enough of them in the drum/clip/cassette to score at least few crits per burst.
That won’t work unless the aim time is 0.5s or there’s no dispersion after shot.
For your interest:
The Autoloader-L/70 is mentioned and explained on Page 153 in Panther and its Variants (okay, german edition this is, page number in different languages may vary). There you will even find the number of 40RPM. Even its Name is mentioned: KwK44/2.
Ah ye, I see, thanks
…a pleasure :) (great article, btw)
Great job is right, very well thought out, impressive.
Cheers,
Appy/Samantha
gut gemacht Panther-Lobbyist #002 ;-)
…gerne, Nummer 1 ;-)
i like the idea of the 75mm L71 with an autoloader and different ammunition. But the ROF and therefore the DPM is very bad so it woud need a massive ROF buff.
I can see this tank work similar as the tier 2/3 german Pz 2/Pz2 G as they have autoloaders too but with fast reload and lowish burstdamage (for its tier)
Except that those are small tanks that are thus somewhat hard targets to hit, whereas the Panther variants are fairly large by medium tank standards. They’re also faster than the Turbopanther would be.
Being a grammar nazi: the plural of “Pfeilgeschoss” ist “Pfeilgeschosse”, not “Pfeilgeschösse”. Anyway, awesome article. Thanks!
If you give the thing current Tiger or a bit faster ROF on the 88/L71 , with that premium pen, I like that gun. 240 dmg every 4-5 seconds doesn’t seem too bad. The issue is that the tank as a platform would be an XP pinata for any other tank…
hmm… so it actually might get implemented :D
I’ve actually had the same idea for a long time, except I want the Ahnenerbe-Panther as a tier VIII prem.
-Give the KwK 44/2 175mm or so AP penetration (L//0 was ballistically equivalent to the 17 Pdr, right?), 220 APCR pen, and 150 damage. 0.34 acc and 2.3 sec aim time
-Autoloader with ~2.2 seconds between shells, 5 shot clip, 20 sec reload
-55km/h top speed with ludicrous accel and hill climbing (it has the P/W ratio of a light tank).
-1400 HP
-380 view range
The weaknesses being the lack of damage compared to other autoloaders and vulnerability (trashy armour, large silhouette/bad armour, and ridiculously flammable engine + frontal transmission). However, it would have excellent straight-line speed and really good fire control compared to most autoloaders.
That sounds like a trash. An excellent proposal for a high tier german tank.
Is there an alternative “conventional” engine like that 900hp engine that would fit in the tier 9 Panther without being unhistorical? Frontal engine fires are not a nice thing to begin with, but now imagine that with this gas turbine…..
Armor wise…as long as it does not overmatch the frontal and the side armor, this should sufficient, but the 40mm sides are weak (120mm+ guns can overmatch it). You already mentioned the Schürzen, only issue is that WG appearantly doesnt really care about it (see PzIV S, where its purely cosmetic).
In real life, Panther crews were apperantly slapping everything, track links, spare road wheels, you name it, to improve the weak side armor. I am not sure if this would work in WoT, as track links and other stuff would fall off if it gets hit. In game, only the Churchill VII has track links as working spaced armor.
Wouldnt it be possible to use the standard 88mm KwK 43 L/71 as stock gun? This would have been better choice as a stock gun. Sure, it is somewhat less historical, but it somewhat makes sense again.
Another almost unrelated question…what do you think of the 75mm L/100 in terms of historic accuracy? While they did mention that (that (in)famous guy wanted that), woud that accuracy make sense (I doubt this barrel length would ever work, not forget to mention that this barrel would get stuck in obstacles due its length). On other hand, if we would remove that long peashooter from the tier 7 Panther, it wouldnt even work in tier 7 anymore because I do not know how to improve that tank otherwise…
Historical, no. There was an undisclosed Deutz diesel prototype, but that was more like 700hp
Random thought: don’t fin-stabbed “long rod” shells have all KINDS of compatibility problems with rifled guns? I got the impression the spin imparted by the rifling basically throws stability totally off the whack with those kinds of projectiles unless you, say, make like the Obus G and flat out isolate the shell proper from the barrel with ball bearings or similar…
Well it will decrease penetration a bit. But not significantly. The real problem comes when you lob a HEAT round down a rifled barrel.
There are APFSDS-Rounds for rifled guns eben today, for example CHARM1 and -3 for the RO L30. The real Problem is firing subcalibre through muzzle breaks..
Just leave e50 alone nobody needs another terrible panther.
You really are mad, aren’t you?
And he has every right to be. In real life, the Panther was probably the best tank of World War II…when everything was in working order (reliability issues are ignored in WoT), but in WoT, the Panther is a joke, a travesty to what it really was. The reason is that it’s effectively a tier 6 chassis placed arbitrarily at tier 7 and given that JOKE of a gun called the 75 mm L/100.
That’s a big “probably”.
As for final drives, germans were planning to just fit the Tiger II one into the Panther to fix it.
As I see it
- Stock: autoloaded 75mm L/70 at very high ROF (E-25 level) to emulate the peculiar autoloader (it’s not a drum loader, just a system that allowed the loader to do just dump shells in the cassette
- Middle: 75mm L/70 KwK 44/2 ME (similar ROF)
- Elite: Elite: 88mm Kwk 43/1 with the historical tested 5 round drum loader.
Didnt you mention (or someone else, if I mistake), that an actual Panther with the GT101 was fully tested and somewhat functional (fuel issues aside which is no issue in WoT)?
As for the autoloader 88mm L/71 KwK 43/1, I dunno if that would work at tier 9, with just a clip damage output of 1200 at tier 9. Sure, we can give that autoloader a fast magazine reload time, but I prefer having a single shot gun rather than this.
I would never what to change my e-50 for panther which has pointless armor anyway and knowing WG that new panther will be shit.
>nonetheless the gas turbine is possibly the most fuel-consuming engine type even today
Let’s guess, who’s the elephant in the US armed forces’ room?
I know, and frankly I don’t see why they gave the Abrams a gas turbine. The military complains about fuel and logistical issues…well…that’s what happens when you power your MBTs with jet engines. They should have done what the Germans did on the Leopard 2 and stuck with diesels.
From what I heard, it’s mostly because it’s quite convenient to run it off the same fuel as the aircraft (and I believe the diesel engines in the humvee will also run on jetfuel, simplifying things further).
I understand the Russians aren’t 100% happy with the one in the T-80 either.
I predict Schürzen will be a hull module on many German tanks.
Dai also mentioned a turbo JT project, Tiger 2 as well IIRC. Turbines for everything!
The 10cm PAW 1000 would be fun… But I like everything as you laid it out SS. Its more or less what I was also thinking. WG is going to have to make premium ammo stock for this thing to have it be able to take on tier 9 and 10. The turbine will give a slow but steady acceleration to top speed as the transmission iirc is automatic which helps reduce engine wear and increase fuel economy.
.
For those that don’t know the V3 Supergun was to use APFSDS that was developed for it.
I not the TurboPanther be an tier VIII and the Panther II an tier IX?
PS: I voted if SerB put the “autoloader” gun on the tier VII Panther
ingame Panther II is an paper tank. Panther II never was intended to have Schmalturm mit 8.8.
it was just an project scrapped in favor of Panther Ausf.F.
Panther II was not a paper tank. The Hull and design was very much a real thing. And the existing Panther II with the Panther G turret is close to what would have been built had the war continued.
Errrr, the last I heard the P II had been canned long before the end and the de facto pipe-dream replacement was the E-50…
It had been canned, eventually, but several hulls were under construction.
That doesn’t mean much – there were two drivable Mouses and a mostly complete E-100 in spite of both projects having gotten axed in whatwasitnow, early ’43.
INGAME P-II is a “paper” tank. Or, more correctly, unhistorical.
Because it have Schmalturm mit 8.8.
What the heck you guys have with that ‘an’?
Anyway, I want GT101 for my Awful Panther…..
You want the GT103. It would have better stats all around.Fire chance etc.
What I read about it made the GT 103 sound a LOT like the engineers’ wishful thinking, the 102 sounded a lot more credible while getting rid of most of the 101′s more alarming faults.
Auf Panther would turn into a huge kamikaze machine
which sound like a good fun for me despite 30%+ fire chance
SS – the 85 mm front is based on measurements.
Just like the KT turretfront (185) in the game. The one which was tested against the 122 and 100mm APBC shells was measured to have 190mm for example.
Generally the production tolerance was +5%, but that was sometimes exceeded.
Here are the measurements on Panthers:
Glacis: 85mm (more than five vehicles)
Nose: 65, 67, 75 mm (at least five tanks)
Source is WW2 Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery
Best regards!
You must also understand that armor quality on the Panther at the end of the war was rather poor. The first panthers armor tended to not spall at all but with a loss of alloys and poor substitutes the armor had to be thickened to maintain protection and spalling increased. It would also crack more when hit and because of the cracks become less effective if hit in the same place twice.
In this case, I’d prefer to base it on Spielberger. Contrary to popular belief, measuring armor weight with ultrasound (at least that’s what I think they used) is not easy, it’s not exactly a user-friendly method. Also, it’s not perfectly accurate, you can make mistakes reading it etc.
With such crap guns even a good Power/weight ratio would not help. This L/71 with 8,7 RoF would be an unfunny joke. I will pass, I prefer my E-50. :/
Is the APFSDS used on rifled guns?
the auto loader and APFSDS may be both be historical.
But would the auto loader accepting those really long rounds historical?
They could give the it more ammo rack health, late panther G’s started to use armored ammo rack bays. Not sure if that is reflected in game on the current panther.
Just leave the e 50 alone I don’t need to seem more German panthers
catching fire anymore 2 times in a row
Panzergranate 44 is a fiction, german flack guns used sabot to get their shots up higher, but it was HE not AP
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/195945-german-ww2-fsapds-ppg-and-rochlin-granate/page__st__-40__p__3703518__hl__+treibspiegel#entry3703518
that link is to the thread where i rebutted the idea
basically the picture of the 37mm is called a Sprenggranate its long range HE if it were solid shot made from tungsten it would be so heavy the charge would not be able to propel it at any usable speed.
It is a bit sad that this site has come to be yet another source of bollocks that people will read and spread across the web as if fiction were fact.
Honestly i’d rather just keep the E-50 as it is… this thing at tier 9? Will be a total joke… so are they 100% going to do this or is just a thought for now? Gun Selection will be abysmal and the armor will be next to none. This tank would be best a tier 8 premium instead of a tier 9 regular tank especially with those stats.
Might have to start my grind to the E-50M if they do do this, because otherwise its going to be the worst grind in the game…