Why was 3-caliber rule removed for HEAT?

Hello everyone,

just a quick “guide” – or more like explanation why there was a removal of the 3-caliber rule for HEAT shells in 8.9. What do patchnotes tell us?

- Removed the rule for HEAT shells that excludes ricochet if the shell’s calibre exceeds the armour thickness by 3 or more times.
- Deflection angle for HEAT shells changed from 80 to 85 degrees.

As you can see, the three caliber rule excludes ricochet, if the caliber of the gun exceeds the nominal (!) armor thicknes by 3 or more times. Note that three is included in this. What it means is that 90mm+ shells (or, to be exact, shells from a 90mm+ gun) cannot ricochet on a 30mm armor. This is called “overmatch”, or “overmatch by 3″ (there is also a 2 caliber overmatch, but that isn’t very important now, I will simplify for the sake of explanation). They always hit. However, does this mean they will penetrate? Of course not.

You see, the entire situation was not very intuitive for a player. When a player is aware of the “no ricochet” overmatch rules, he can shoot at a 30mm armor with a 90mm gun under extreme angles and expect it to penetrate. After all, I have a 90mm gun and he has only a 30mm armor, that has to penetrate, right? Much to their surprise, the shell often does not penetrate. Why? Because at early ricochet angle (80 degrees), a 30mm the armor is effectively 172mm thick (and that’s only on one axis, so I should say “no less than 172mm”). At 85 degrees (well within the “no ricochet rule zone”) it’s already no less than 344mm.

I am sure you can see where this is going. Removing the 3 ricochet rule for HEAT shells (that have high penetration) and moving the ricochet boundary to 85 degrees assures that when a player hits a 30mm armor at 84 degrees, he’ll have to defeat 287mm armor (hard, but possible with tier 10 shells), while 85 degrees will already ricochet: the player would (even with a tier 10 gun firing HEAT) not be able to penetrate the armor at 85 degrees anyway, but he would hear “did not penetrate their armor” instead of “ricochet” and that’s not intuitive. Now, the player will hear “ricochet” and will know he didn’t do damage because of the extreme angle and not because of the armor thickness.

I hope it’s clear for you folks. Or at least clearer :)

60 thoughts on “Why was 3-caliber rule removed for HEAT?

  1. Thanks for preventing the whine-storm of people who don’t bother to figure out game mechanics.

  2. - Removed the rule for HEAT shells that excludes ricochet if the shell’s calibre exceeds the armour thickness by 3 or more times.

    So this is a huge NERF, right?

    - Deflection angle for HEAT shells changed from 80 to 85 degrees.

    And this is a small buff for compensation the whole situation, right?

    • Did you even bother reading the post? It is clearly stated that even before the change it was higly unlikely to pen at high angles (~85°) because the effective armor is massive.

      • Addition:

        But now you will hear “Ricochet” instead of “Did not penetrate their armor”, which is more acceptable for the majority of players who dont even bother checking how the game mechanics actually work.

      • I read everything but Im not a native speaker so I cannot understand everything clearly on the first read.

        My understanding was, like I wrote before, removing 3 caliber rule = huge nerf, changing angle degree from 80 to 85 = small buff.

          • Thx for your appreciation but thats not your fault, I have to deal with it.

            But it would be helpfull just to say that Im right with this or that I misunderstood something.

            • I don’t even understand what you wrote, you should learn english, lessons are cheap now.

    • No
      It just says ‘riochet’ instead of not penetrated.
      Under these angles you wouldnt penetrate anyway , even with gold on tier X tank destroyers.
      50mm amor * tan( 85) =571mm of armor.
      So thats a non pen anyway.

      • Actually in real life HEAT would pen that without any problem. Heat does ALLWAYS pen. I do know it cuz my brother is working in ballistic company and they r working on new types of ammo all the time. Even subcals should nearly never riochet. They only do it with really really hard angles like 82-83* to 89.99(9)*

        • And you just said they pen under high angles, and we all are speaking about high angles 0_o

          To be honest, I do not understand what you mean. You paraphrased me I think.

            • sorry for mistake. what i wrote is that SUBCALS may bounce at that angles between 82-83 to 89.99(9). that what i wrote. HEAT pen always.

  3. Nicely described and anyone with brains would understand – but its a shame that the ppl who dont understand it will not even read this article nor find this blog :(
    Btw I would really like to see some shell weight and dynamics implemented. Cause ricochet or not, 15cm shell flying 800m/s will change AMX 13 90 driving direction from forward to backward …
    Any info whether this is planned to be implemented? I guess the server computing load would be too high :( But it would change the game …

    • I once calculated that if a T92 shell hits a T1, the T1 would move with a speed of 45km/h in the direction of the shell if the collision was theoretical and both ‘joined’ together.

      That is way to heavy to calculate, so it will probably never come.
      Deformed terrain would be way nicer then that :)

      • Much of the energy of a shell is absorbed by the distortion of the metal it is passing through or bouncing off so there is not enough left to do much else except decorate the inside of the tank hull wiith the crew. If tanks and shells were perfectly elastic bodies where the total kinetic energy of the two bodies after the encounter is equal to their total kinetic energy before the encounter then the transfer of momentum would be more like billard balls.

    • Probably need to implement the Havok engine first before they did anything like that. That said and done though, it’d be interesting to see. I bounced a shell from my JPZe100 on a T71 last night, would have been fun seeing him go skidding across the map.

      • I did not mention friction – this is not World of (perfectly elastic) Hovercraft. Sorry but when havoc and full 1.0 physics get introduced we will be too busy flipping tanks and having them tumble down mountains to miss that.

      • Fantasy again, T71 wouldn’t be skidding from 170mm shell bounce. Your tank is not made of rubber, there is not enough friction and even if there was , the kinetic force would punch the shell through and penetrate the plate and actually damage the tank. Luckily for you, the metal has bounced the shell and you received no damage, that’s more realistic than what you described vonKaiser

      • Let’s calculate.

        The 170mm shell of JpzE-100 weighs probably around 60kg and has a muzzle velocity of 900m/s (just guesses, you can change the numbers but it doesn’t change the conclusion).

        We’re assuming frictionless surface and that all of the momentum of the shell will transfer into the T71 (the shell comes to halt inside it or gets stuck at it or whatnot) It’s simply 62kg*900m/s/18000kg (p = mv and momentum is always conserved)

        That gives us speed of 11km/h. That’s roughly the same speed as jogging, bit faster than walking (which is about 6km/h).

        Not exactly skidding. More like a gentle push. And this is the upper limit assuming the shell penetrates the tank and comes to halt inside it.

        This is one of the reasons why most players demanding more “realism” are completely in the wrong, simply because they have absolutely no idea how the real world actually works.

        • It is:
          W = 0.5 * m * v^2?
          The shell has 24,300,000 J; enough to accelerate the T71 to ~52 m/s or 187 km/h.
          Different conclusion, i guess…..

          • You have an idea how the real world works? never underestimate the energy behind such a shell… even if we say half shell weight, 30 kg, it is still enough energy to accelerate the T71 to ~37 m/s; 132 km/h.

  4. what an utter load of nonsense.. You could have saved yourself the effort of three paragraphs, and the ending nonsense of :
    Now, the player will hear “ricochet” and will know he didn’t do damage because of the extreme angle and not because of the armor thickness” ?? angle = effective armour thickness

    What are we playing? Pingball?

    • Hey, wanna hear a story that’s as smart as your comment ? Okay here it goes:

      I got raped on the couch by my “girlfriends” father. I say “girlfriend” because she was the girl I traveled to another state to see/hang out with when i was 18, had known her since 9… She spent the night fucking some guy she worked with in her room, I was so numb I just laid there and let her cancer-ridden soon-to-die father fuck me for eight or nine minutes while I pretended to be asleep.

      Since then, my best friend (who is bisexual) has gotten me drunk/fucked up with pills and raped me, I pretend to be a girl now when it happens.

        • Whiteknighting ? Nigga u trippin’ ?

          1.There are no girls here
          2. SS will not reward me with sex so I’m not even trying to defend him
          3. Yeah Orcs are neat but I’m not one which saddens me deeply.

          • palmnut has gone into comment overdrive, do yourself a favour m8 or you’ll just embarrass yourself

            • forgive english, i am Russia.

              i come to study Mechanical Engineering at American university. i am here little time and i am very hard stress. i am gay also and this very difficult for me, i am very religion person. i never act to be gay with other men before. but after i am in america 6 weeks i am my friend together he is gay also. He was show me American video game and then we are kiss.

              We sex together. I never before now am tell my mother about gay because i am very shame. As i fuck this American boy it is very good to me but also i am feel so guilty. I feel extreme guilty as I begin orgasm. I feel so guilty that I pick up my telephone and call Mother in Russia. I awaken her. It too late for stopping so I am cumming sex. I am very upset and guilty and crying, so I yell her, “I AM CUM FROM SEX” (in Russia). She say what? I say “I AM CUM FROM SEX” and she say you boy, do not marry American girl, and I say “NO I AM CUM FROM SEX WITH MAN, I AM IN ASS, I CUM IN ASS” and my mother very angry me. She not get scared though.

              I hang up phone and am very embarrass. My friend also he is very embarrass. I am guilt and feel very stupid. I wonder, why do I gay with man? But I continue because when it spurt it feel very good in American ass.

    • but to actually answer your , “so great input to discussion”

      Ricochet happens when shell hits angled armor and it flies off while non-penetration hit simply shatters the shell or leaves it stuck in armor plate. The difference in WoT is that when you get Ricochet it means you need to try a different angle to penetrate while non-penetration simply means you’re helpless and need to switch to different ammo or aim at different part, ultimately you may need to forfeit shooting at the target.

      Hope that helps you to realize the difference :)

      • Oh and I should add that Ricochets may fly and hit a different part of same tank which then may in fact penetrate and deal damage, this concerns tanks with “shot-traps”

        SerB once bragged about adding possibility to let ricochets hit other tanks as well.

      • still doesnt merit 3 paragraphs and an article to itself, but hey makes my day trawling silly replies and SS’s band of squires..

            • omg I feel like part of something important now

              SS’s band of squires…

              I think we should rename to Fellowship of FTR, I can act as Frodo.

            • forgive english, i am PalmNut.

              i come to study Mechanical Engineering at SS university. i am here little time and i am very hard stress. i am gay also and this very difficult for me, i am very religion person. i never act to be gay with other men before. but after i am in FTR 6 weeks i am my friend together he is gay also. He was show me WOT video game and then we are kiss.

              We sex together. I never before now am tell my mother about gay because i am very shame. As i fuck this FTR boy it is very good to me but also i am feel so guilty. I feel extreme guilty as I begin orgasm. I feel so guilty that I pick up my telephone and call Mother in FTR . I awaken her. It too late for stopping so I am cumming sex. I am very upset and guilty and crying, so I yell her, “I AM CUM FROM SEX” (in Russia). She say what? I say “I AM CUM FROM SEX” and she say you boy, do not marry American girl, and I say “NO I AM CUM FROM SEX WITH MAN, I AM IN ASS, I CUM IN ASS” and my mother very angry me. She not get scared though.

              I hang up phone and am very embarrass. My friend also he is very embarrass. I am guilt and feel very stupid. I wonder, why do I gay with man? But I continue because when it spurt it feel very good in SS ass.

  5. So in essence, they changed around the rules so absolutely clueless people who listen to the ridiculous crew voices are less baffled as to why autoaiming tanks doesn’t always work?

  6. I thought HEAT shells never overmatched in the first place (as they didn’t even ricochet before 8.6)?

  7. Hm… this actually gives me an idea for a question to the devs: “Any plans to implement realistic HEAT shell fuses that fail to activate when hitting heavily sloped armor?”

  8. As far as im concearned nerf heat even more since all tanks using heat is gold ammo pussies. AP penentrations are alreaddy too high, why the fuck would u need uber gold ammo?