Source: http://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/2380851.html
Hello everyone,
on his blog, Yuri Pasholok posted answers to two questions, that seem to appear on RU forums.
Q: Why does the Sturer Emil carry only 15 rounds of ammunition? Wiki and other sites state 18!
Answer lies in this picture (Sturer Emil’s combat compartment with ammo slots designated in numbers – it’s really 15)
Q: Why does the S-51 not have its historical 40 degrees gun traverse?
Apparently, the number “40″ (often cited on Russian sites) was a typo. Here is the original report, that clearly shows 4 degrees.
Impressive :)
I guess someone read the deg sign as a 0?
Typewriter machine, wrongly inserted paper sheet and you got a dilemma what it might be.
Well… we have two types of ammo slots:
• open ones with plain numbers;
• closed ones with K letter and numbers.
On this photo we may see:
• 7 open slots numbered from 9 to 15;
• 7 closed slots numbered from K7 to K13.
It seems logical that on another wall we should have:
• 8 open slots numbered from 1 to 8;
• 6 closed slots numbered from K1 to K6.
It means overall number of ammo round should be not 15 but 28, maybe with additional another one in barrel.
but are the shells single piece ammunition or separate shell and charge?
Have no idea. But if these are separated, why number of open and closed slots are not equal? There are 15 to 13, it makes no sense.
In the picture you can see a casing sticking out of one of the bins, can you imagine it possibly fitting into the open racks? Almost definitely 2-piece ammo.
Scale models always have shells in the racks and casings in the bins.
Box #14 is on the opposite side under the other shell rack, box #15 is on the floor next to the gun on the left side, this prototype was probably labeled for demonstration purposes, so the main bins are numbered first and the lower ones last.
Here’s the other side, btw (#15 is that box behind the breech on the floor)
http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=16759
NM, I’m an idiot, apparently the Germans really did put only 13 charges for 15 shells. I guess they…just left 2 on the floor?
There probably “are” only 13 closed compartments. The box to the left/bottom of the gun is part of the gun (or engine, not sure what ventilation is there) and there’s no box under the left rack.
I recommend this one for checking, even if it’s not original tank, that guy’s detail concentration leaves me no doubts he has it properly checked through.. (modelers sure are crazy about details, btw) http://www.drakkar-models.com/scale-tutorials/sturer-emil-panzer-afv-kit-vk3001.html
My guess would be 2 shells casings being ready for the fight by the loader and commander, or something like that – to be ready for deployment faster.
What’s on the 6o’clock of gun? Could be the additional 2 charges behind them?
That is correct. The 12.8 cm gun uses a separate charge and shell.
Now if we want to get technical…
There are three different charges for the 12.8cm gun and at least 3 different types of shells it could fire of which there is at least 4 different shells available in total each with a different weight.
While 15 rounds might be the max for the on board stowage. It is more then possible there was at least 1 support vehicle nearby that carried more ammunition. This is why the Grille at Tier 5 has 30 rounds of ammunition rather then 18.
Grilles were set up in groups of 6 with 2 ammunition carriers working with 6 Grilles. Which averages about 31.33 repeating rounds of ammunition per Grille in combat.
NEMO.
Most likely charges, hence the different designation.
Well, Panzer Tracts 7-3 on pages 242 and 243 clearly shows fully equipped fighting compartment with 28 slots for ammunition: 15 open and 13 closed.
Unfortunately technical data shown on page 248 tells clearly about 15 rounds of “Pzgr. & Sprgr.” and this is a little bit weird.
Pzgr. is Armor Piercing rounds. (Could be any of a number of different types from AP to APC, APCBC, APCR… I could go on)
Sprgr is High Explosive. (Typically)
That’s 13 Boxes for charges and racks for 15 shells.
The 12.8cm is a two piece ammunition gun.
Dam the lack of edit options.
The Sprenggrante L/4.5 mit Rauchentwichler Nr.9 weighed 26 kg and was fired at a muzzle velocity of 880m/s.
The 12.8cm Panzergranate mit Lichtspurhuelse Nr.4 weighed 26.35 kg and was also fired at the same muzzle velocity of 880m/s
Also at one point they even managed to set a T34 on fire with the Sprenggrante. They shot long on the first shot and short on the 2nd shot but hit the T24 in the rear on the third shot. Panzer Tracts 7-3 pg246
Ok. But, we don’t see the whole compartment of the Sturer Emil. Couldn’t there be a few (like 3) more rounds housed elsewhere on the vehicle? Purely speculating here.
Nope
http://www.hier-ist-es-schoen.de/Bilder/Sturer-Emil/Sturer%20Emil%20(10).jpg
They are shells and charges.
Hey, look at that! A wooden floor, so you won’t be standing in paddle of water when its raining, classy and practical!
lol’ed
Yet only one gas mask and canteen. At least their feet were dry…
the open slots at wall are much smaller … looks like its 2 different caliber types.
ah now i know it, with 128mm the bullet is separated from the cartridges.
Still you have 15 slots of one type and 13 of another.
13 propellant cartridges for 15 shells, at least as far as such dedicated stowage space went. Presumably the other two were carried as “loose cargo” instead.
Yes shells are separated from charges
Do i see a bottle of Schnaps there? As an equipment :) ?
Well of course, can’t go into battle without Schnapps and a set of glasses :)
the liquor also has to fit the first class wooden floor!
I don’t understand it! Even if this is fucking historical give that tank more shells for balance reasons. They use this historical bullshit only when they want! Meanwhile the game is full of paper or invented tanks!
*something is actually historical* *still whines*
You want historical? Go join the army! It’s a fucking arcade game man…balance should be nr1 priority!
^^ exactly
and SaintCaboose missed the whole point…..but he thought he would look cool with his comment….he actually looks retarded
In some Marders there were clips for holding 2-3 rounds on the folding back flap. That might account for the extra count. Any photos of that?
I could look into that but I don’t recall seeing any such bags.
As for the 12.8cm Pz Sfl. V there are no such bags on any of the photos I have seen of it. There are boxes on the 12.8cm Pz Sfl. V, on the sides, in combat. Most likely theses are tool boxes mounted on it in the field to hold tools or other equipment.
I remember now It is on the Grille M. It may only be on the mid-engine type.
Here is a view of the flap shell holders.
http://www.spruebrothers.com/gmwimages/images/Criel/crr032.JPG
I get it that 15 shells were historical, but have they ever thought about game balancing issue? I’m pretty sure many tanks have historically incorrect number of shells, but we don’t give a fuck about it, don’t we? It’s all for balancing purpose, but suddenly they need to be 100% historically accurate. I still find it extremly stupid that they are trying to be “historically correct” in a game that is more arcade than simulator and in a game where is tons of incorrect stuff including paper project tanks.
You must carry pretty hard considering you get about 7k damage from the entire ammo capacity
So use the 10,5cm or whatever the stock gun now was, seemed plenty enough for the tier when I eyeballed the stats.
To have more then 15 shells they would need to do what was done on the Grille and a few other tanks.
Quoting myself:”While 15 rounds might be the max for the on board stowage. It is more then possible there was at least 1 support vehicle nearby that carried more ammunition. This is why the Grille at Tier 5 has 30 rounds of ammunition rather then 18.
Grilles were set up in groups of 6 with 2 ammunition carriers working with 6 Grilles. Which averages about 31.33 repeating rounds of ammunition per Grille in combat. ”
But to do this you need proof of said support vehicle and proof of the number of rounds of ammunition that it carried. Do able but difficult.
More practically, self-propelled artillery pieces tend to hang rather further back from the actual shooting than the self-propelled AT gun types. The SPGs’ implied ammo carriers can be handwaved without overmuch suspension of disbelief when they sit way back near the home base; those of the TDs would require a whole lot more when the things tend to be almost in the thick of the fighting…
Eh, browser forgot about auto-filling the name…
It’s still possible that a munition panzer was moving extra ammo back and forth between the front and rear. Such vehicles were made out fo Panzer I, II, III’s as they became useless.
Could be 16 rounds too, rolling out, 1 shell already loaded.
AFAIK something of an universal SOP was to only load a shell in combat after orders from the TC; more to the point, separated loads are kind of pain in the butt as one you’ve rammed the propellant the only way to get the shell proper out of the gun is to push a stick down the barrel na dpoke it back down…
Thankfully WG opted to handwave *these* little details in the interests of playability.
Can’t have one shell already loaded, every tank starts the match by loading. For Sturer Emil to start with a round loaded, *everyone* would need to start with a round loaded, and that’d be stupid.
That, too. Though if you wanted to be *really* generous you could assume the loaders start with an extra set in their hands…
…
…nah, still seems kinda dodgy.
On the subject of the Sturer Emil:
You shall note that the ready-racks are numbered separetely from the closed racks.
They start counting on the left side of the vehicle (K1-K6 and 1-8) and continue on the right side (K7-K13 and 9-15). This means it actually holds 15+13=28, not 18 shells. A typo on the wiki (copied everywhere) and a mistake from the picture by WG.
I should add to this, on the subject of separate charges: You can obviously see a brass (!) shell casing sticking out of the storage. AFAIK separate charges weren’t packed in brass shells.
Sure they were, *especially* for big guns like this. An unitary cartridge would have been too large and heavy to be really manageable.
The Shell is separate from the Charges (Brass) nothing really more to be said about that.
The “18 shells” found on wikipedia and everywhere else is according to Hilary Doyle’s “Encyclopedia of German Tanks of Word War Two”.
WG loves to go against his findings. I think it’s a sport for them at this point.
Some times Doyle’s “Encyclopedia of German Tanks of Word War Two” contradicts his own Panzer Tracts. It can be very annoying. You have to always check the publication date.
sorry for my bad english, but:
the “K” stands for “Kartusche” which is nothing more than a cartridge.
a cartridge is shell already set up with a propellant, you just put the projectile on it and its ready.
oh, and before i forget it: it was 10 rounds (5 AP + 5HE) + 3 spare cartridges to use with the 3 spare AP projectiles.
+ 2 HE for… you know what to do with your tank when you run out of ammo…
thats how we krauts used to do it and still do.