Hello everyone,
not so long ago (prior to the introduction of patch 8.11), Storm mentioned one of his comments that there are two candidates for tier 8 American light tank: the T49 (upgunned Walker Bulldog) and the T92 Light Tank.
The T92 was being mentioned as a possible tier 8 American candidate on forums ever since the tier 8 light tank concept came to be – or, at least, ever since there was a talk of introducing high-tier scouts for other nations than the French. This of course happened (with various degrees of success), but the Americans are still waiting for their high-tier light tanks and it looks like they might get them this year. But is the T92 REALLY good enough for it to be a tier 8 candidate? Well, let’s have a look!
T92 Light Tanks is one of the proposals for a new, airmobile light tank for the US army from the 50′s, intended as a replacement for the Walker Bulldog. Here’s a short summary of its development by Priory_of_Sion:
The T92 is a very unique design which emphasized smallness. Weighing a little over 18 tons and armed with the same 76 mm gun the T92 was very close to being put into production which was planned in 1962. The 375 hp engine of the T92 would allow it to be very mobile. The 76 mm gun was located in a cleft turret which allowed for -10 degrees of comfy depression. The T92 was equipped with a semiautomatic loader. This would fire 1 round at a time and did not have any sort of drum. Each round would be put into the semiautomatic loader one at a time. After the round is fire the shell is automatically ejected. Protection is effectively the same as the M41 but lighter weight materials such as aluminum were used to protect parts of the T92.
The first T92 arrived at Aberdeen in 1956, the second arrived the next year. Both proved capable machines but there were problems found, in all 50 changes were to take place and ranged from problems with the tracks to problems with the shell case ejector. In 1957, before the 2nd pilot T92 arrived at Aberdeen, Congress found out about Soviet PT-76 and its amphibious capabilities. The T92 was unable be modified to become amphibious due to the design of the vehicle. In 1958 the T92 was cancelled.
As you can see, the vehicle is lower and sleeker than the Walker Bulldog (which is probably to appear on tier 7). Historically, it’s correct to put it after the M41, but was it really that much of an upgrade? Let’s find out by having a look at the holy tank trinity of armor, mobility and firepower. It’s worth noting that for its size, it had a crew of 4 men.
Armor
The best source of the T92 info is probably Hunnicutt’s Sheridan book. The text states the vehicle had similiar level of protection as the M41. Some components were aluminium (like the doors), but please note that the T92′s hull was made from rolled and cast homogenous steel and welded together. Aluminium components by the way are an argument against this tank, as there is currently no clear rule as how to implement aluminium into the game as far as I know. While not as durable as steel, it’s lighter. There were some tests, comparing the toughness of aluminium and steel, but it’s possible Wargaming would simply disregard the fact it’s aluminium and use “RHA” for everything.
The armor thicknesses are as follows:
Upper frontal plate: 12,7mm (65 and 83 deg, 30,5 and 104mm EFF)
Lower frontal plate: 12,7mm (35 deg, 15,5mm EFF)
Side hull armor: 10-19mm (90deg), 25mm at places (driver protection)
Rear armor: 10mm
Roof: 12,7mm
Floor: 10-25mm
Turret front: 32mm
Turret sides: 12,7mm (45 deg, 18mm EFF), 19mm near the cradle
Turret rear: 32mm, 19mm cradle
Roof: 12,7mm
Cupola thickness: 29mm
As you can see, the vehicle is completely unprotected and will be overmatched by absolutely anything it meets. Armor is clearly not its strong side and it will be overmatched by absolutely everything. Definitely not a tier 8 material here, but the armor can somewhat be disregarded, IF the mobility and the gun are good. The armor however is clearly inferior to pretty much any hightier light tank in the game.
Mobility
T92 Light Tank was equipped with Continental 10,3 liter V8 AOI-628-I engine with the output of 340 horsepower. The vehicle itself weighs 18,5 tons, so the engine gives it 18,37 hp/ton. That’s not much. To compare, elite AMX 13-90 in game weighs 14,6 tons and has a 350hp engine (24 hp/t), the WZ-132 weighs 24 tons, but has a 520 hp engine (21,6 tons) – and I am not even speaking about the firepower and protection, that’s completely somewhere else.
Maximum speed of T92 LT was 56 km/h (35 mph), again, not that much, considering the vehicle is virtually unprotected. Both other tier 8 vehicles are noticeably faster (64 km/h).
Agility of course is a balance parameter, it could be compensated by ground resistance buff, but overall, T92 was slower and had a weaker engine than its competitors, so again, this doesn’t look too good.
Firepower
T92 Light Tank was equipped with a 76mm T185E1 gun. Sounds familiar? It should be, it’s the identical gun the T71 and T69 use in game. In the game, it has following parameters:
Damage: 150/150/185
Penetration: 175/220/38
ROF: 12-12,9 RPM
Accuracy: 0,38-0,39
Aimtime: 2,3s
By the way, this gun was also identical to the gun M41 Walker Bulldog uses. I am not an expert on American ammunition, but according to FaustianQ (US forums), the gun had following performance:
M339 APBC – 127mm @ 677m/s @ 0° versus 260BHN plate, maximum velocity is 975m/s. Also, 127mm @ 967m/s @ 30° versus 250 BHN plate.
M319 HVAP – 152mm @ 1236m/s @ 30° versus 253BHN plate, maximum velocity is 1262m/s
Anyway, back to T92: its historical rate of fire was 12 RPM and carried 60 rounds for the 76mm gun. It could be elevated to -10/+20 degrees. Here’s a twist thought: it did NOT have an autoloader. Nope, the loading process was semi-automatic. Here’s how The_Chieftains (US server history expert) describes it:
The operator releases a round. of the type appropriate for the tactical situation from the shell dispenser rack The bottom of the round is pulled rearward and up the incline of the loader ramp, until the round is in position to be lowered onto the carriage of the gun loader assembly. When the round is properly seated on the loader carriage, it is automatically locked in place at the front by two ammunition locks and at the rear by two latches. The loader operator now pulls the loader’s headguard assembly all the way to the rear. Next, the loader operator will check his safety switch box to see that the turret power switch is at the “On” position and that the turret power indicator light glows, showing the presence of power to the turret control circuits. At the safety switch box he then depresses the pushbutton type loader cycle switch, holding it in until the entire loading operation is complete and the loader comes to rest once again on the turret floor. This completes the preparation of the gun for firing, as the breech closes automatically during the loading cyle.
So, what we basically have here is a gun, that is without an autoloader underpowered even for tier 7 for a proposed tier 8 vehicle? I think that when you compare it to the 90mm AMX-13 gun and the 100mm WZ-132 gun, the outcome is absolutely clear.
Conclusion
Considering no other gun or engine was proposed for the T92 (and, thus, any upgrades would have to be unhistorical), without some serious fake overhaul (like installing a gun that wouldn’t fit in real life, installing an autoloader that wouldn’t fit etc.), there is no way in hell this vehicle can be a tier 8 light tank. It’s too thinly armored, too slow and too undergunned for that. Even historically it would fit the tier 7 slot too, since technically it started as a part of what became the T71 program.
I have a feeling that Storm, when he noted it as a tier 8 candidate, either didn’t pay particular attention to this vehicle or was simply mistaken. T49 is a much better tier 8 candidate and with tier 7 slot going to the Walker Bulldog (at least I hope it is, technically it also could be M24 – T41 – T92 – T49, although that would make little sense, with T49 being and upgrade to the M41), I actually don’t think we’ll get to see the T92 in the game, because it doesn’t fit anywhere. Maybe there might be two tier 7 light tanks? Who knows?
Ironically, the T92 was actually good for what it was supposed to do. It wasn’t a disaster, what buried it was the demand for it to be amphibious – that’s how the disaster called Sheridan started.
Sources:
Hunnicutt’s Sheridan
The_Chieftain’s and FaustianQ’s posts on US forums
Sexeh
fappeh fappeh fappeteh fappeh
Wankers :D But tonk looks badass.
It could be a hightier (6 or 7) premium light tank for the Americans.
I was thinking about the same thing, being “not fitting anywhere” is what makes a premium vehicle.
Sounds like a very good candidate for a tier 7 US premium light tank, yes, though it would be strange to have the Walker Bulldog, its historical predessor, to be better when elited than the tank that was designed to replace it…
looks great and also there is images of that not like whit wt e100 or e100 turret.
Well the E 100 turret was a proposed upgrade for Maus turret, it is kinda historical and it wouldn’t make much sense to have two tier X tanks with the same turret and also, E 100 turret has better front than Maus. I don’t understand why people keep complaining abut E 100 turret.
the E-100′s turret has that viewport bar on top of its turret that is a rather annoying weakspot, the maus turret has no weakspot like that, and due to its thick armor, can be angled to the point of 300+ effective armor on both the front and side.
lol really ? XD one of two you are a complete noob or newer play t8 + .
They said before we will see 2 new branches in 2014. If this branch will get expanded with tiers 6, 7, 8, this means it’s a new branch, or just an expand and doesn’t count as a full new branch?
My guess is that it counts.
Maybe we get the Astron X as the tier 8 and this ends up being a premium vehicle or just an alternative to the T49?
Edit: I forgot that the Astron was armed with a smoothbore :(
Tier 6 or 7 premium?
EFB
Looks awesome
Don’t know about tier 8, but they could always give it unhistorically high RoF, making it like an autoloader that never needs to reload the clip.
Oh, I kinda expected it to go like this:
M5 Stuart – Chaffee – T21 – T71 – T49 – T54E1 ->
M5 Stuart – M7 – 2 new mediums – T69 – T54E1 -> ( with T8+ meds possibly eventually changed for a whole new medium line)
Not that I’d know of any particular mediums, but some were supposed to come I believe?
There are some Sherman variants that could fit tier 6 and 7:
M4 Improved : sloped welded armour all around but armed only with a 75mm gun
M4E6: 76mm M1A1 in a T23 turret on a M4A1 hull
-additional turret is a similar design but with a sloped front
M4A4E1: special turret designed for a 105mm M2A1 howitzer
-additional turret is a M4E5 turret for an 105mm M4 howitzer
M4 with 90mm: only a design from 1942 with a slightly lower hull and a 90mm M1 gun
-additional turret is a Pershing turret with a 90mm M3 gun
there was mention of some additional armour for the Sherman developed by Chrysler but it only reached wooden mock up stage; also there was an additional armour kit to help defend from hollow charge warheads.
From all of these the M4E6 at tier 6 and the M4 90mm at tier 7 would fit the best IMO. The M4 improved could be a tier 5 premium and the 105mm howitzer one is more or less in game already.
Most new mediums however are tier 8 and up: T42 and M47 as well as T54E2 and the T95E5 and T95E7.
I could use M4A6 for my Girls und Panzer tank collection, but maybe I was hoping for something less M4 :) Oh well doesn’t really matter, does it.
There are e few problems that are blocking the light tanks from being effective. That is if you want to use your light for other things that passive scouting.
Personaly I like to use mu light as even faster/softer mediums, to flank, circle and go for the enemy rear-line. At some point during such a fight, I usualy take a hit (hopefully just to the track), but no problem, at least I know I now have like 10-15 seconds to get in close to circle or maby disappear once again.
But but but, with all those revolver tanks I get my next shot after only 3 seconds, effectivly preventing me from active scouting.
It is basically the high tier revolver tanks with huge alpha-damage, that are blocking the light/scouts from playing other rolls than passive scout. I don’t see how a rebalancing of (just the) lights can change that
Can this noob ask a question…..
If you look at the first and second pictures the tank seem to have one more wheel in the first one. Was this one of the problems they rectified?
It was a change during development, mentioned in Hunnicutt’s book.
What makes me think up to this article was, that the T92 LT is like a BatChat, yeah a smaller one, but just from images a BatChat with Gun Depression.
So what I think now is that there is a need of some sort of 90mm to put into this tank and make it as fast as the BatChat is. With better turning rate ofc, but at least the same.
*So was there plans, or maybe cause this project got cancelled later some engine, that could fit into the T92 LT with more horse power?
* If the first question is positive, is there a chance to mount a 90mm Gun like the one from T29 or to say it in other words the T69 90mm without autoloader but with something like 198 Pen normal ammunition into it?
(The T29 Gun is maybe much to long, but the T69 is shorter but has really bad penetration beside Gold, so a mixing of both guns would be cool for a T8 LT). Another guess is that you just take the T69 Gun with the 250mm HEAT Shells as normal ammo and give him no prem ammunition. If you now think thats huge Pen for a T8 LT, yes ofcourse, but it is HEAT so you cant Pen tracks and through spaced Armor, what most T10 Tanks have. So it would be quite tricky to Pen the enemy and thats a point I would say it would be somehow interesting thing.
It has to be at least somewhat historical….
Doesn’t this fit perfectly as a premium? It was actually built but not mass produced, it is somewhat obscure, it only had 1 configuration and it doesn’t really fit the tech tree anywhere.
t7?
With low ground resistance it would be a less armored T71 without an autoloader, not bad but still inferior to the tech tree counterpart.
I agree totally. Bring it out one patch before the expanded amarican light line comes out.
They would sell a lot of them.
Appy
Tier V: Chaffee with 75mm M17 upgrade (real proposal, Faustian mentioned it, something like 120 pen I think)
Tier VI: T37, would be much like the current Chaffee (which uses the T37′s turret and gun as upgrades)
Tier VII: T41, very much like the T37, but it would have the Walker Bulldog’s gun
Tier VIII: Walker Bulldog with 90mm M41 (M48 Patton stock gun) upgrade, this was a historical proposal and doesn’t have smoothbore shenanigans
and REMOVE_ARBITRARY_SCOUT_MM_FROM_THE_GAME
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/313228-platypusbill%E2%80%99s-reworked-american-tech-tree/
^Disclaimer: artistic license with top speeds/penetration/etc (apparently the 90mm M36/M41/M54 were nearly identical).
Give it better camo, better view range (420 like all tier 10 murican medium have) compare with 2 other tier 8 LT, a better engine (we have unhistorical tank running out there, so i don’t think we have a problem with unhistorical engine for balance it), some good soft stats (terrain resistance, accuracy on more, camo on fire) and we have a good tier 8 scout. This is WG, don’t need to fear of “historical accuracy”
Sidearmour looks like IS-7, just…not even spaced.
It’s kinda like those condom sales slogans – “so thin, it’s almost like without!” :P
This is no worse off than the amx 13 90. I think it fits perfectly.
Huh, it DOESN’T have an autoloader?
My dreams are crushed. :(
(Tier VII premium light?)
I always thought that the T92 Light could be a side researchable tank from the T71.
Pingback: T92 L.T. ¿Un Ligero Americano Tier 8? | Wot y Leaks
Damage: 150/150/185
Penetration: 175/220/38
ROF: 12-12,9 RPM
Accuracy: 0,38-0,39
Aimtime: 2,3s
I mean that penentration on a tier 8 scout tank? And also 150 alpha a that rof and aimtime? That will totally go theu all tier 8 heavys frontaly if hitting the lower glacis….smart.
Well the Specifications, should be the tank stock configuration,
WG has put unhistorical engines and guns on tanks…lol
Its 76mm gun Could have a Rof of 20runds/minute
Looking at how small the tank is, it should have super good camo rating
So it’s, roughly speaking, an underpowered “tier 7″ American copy of AMX ELC?
More like an AMX-13 minus autoloader really. But with MOAR MG miniturrets to delight the young and old alike.
Would make a good tier 6 premium tank
It would seem more appropriate as a tier 7 premium light tank as it comes from the same family as the T71, tier 7 aswell, and the T92 was supposed to replace the Walker Bulldog which would indeed be a superb tier 7 light tank candidate.
It would be odd to have the successor tank to the Walker Bulldog be a tier lower AND be a premium tank (which is less the a regularly elited same tier tank) to boot.
Tier 8 premium would be best IMHO as the developers could make it better then the Walker Bulldog, but inferior to the regular light tank to appear at tier 8 for the American tree, but I doubt WG will make tier 8 premium light tanks, so tier 7 premium seems the next best fit to me.
To reflect the semi-auto loader, can they just give it a boosted RoF rather than a clip. give me the T71 gun with 25 rpm rather than 30 rpm on a clip with a 20sec reload.
20* e-25 rof is more than enough. 25 would be OP. 30 on t71 is OK because you cannot fire it constantly.
Edit:
also, the T71 has 18 RPM 20 sec reload and 6 shots. x3
oh, wait- it’s less. because you have to take the 10 seconds from inbetween shots. so 15 rpm.
20RPM is more than enough. I would be super happy. …it’d likely be OP, but I’d love it.