Hello everyone,

definitely check out Chieftain’s article on the movie Fury, well worth reading. Also, you can check out Listy’s article on 3.7in British tank mortar.

- the T-62A SPORT experience, after the football mode ends, will be transferred to MS-1
- US premium TD M56 Scorpion is planned for this year
- no new info whether the Aufklärungspanzer Panther is going to be replaced by something else
- FV215b and FV4202 to be replaced? Tanitha: “The FV215b and FV4202 are up for work late in 2014 or early 2015. It really is too early for any information though.” (SS: my guess – FV4202 -> Vickers MBT, FV215b -> Chieftain P6)
- regarding ASIA to US account transfers and roaming: “No not at this stage, bulk transfers are unlikely. Server roaming is still a feature that may be available at a later stage but not in the short future. The most likely feature to help out here is a paid transfer service, there is no schedule for its development though, but its still the most likely feature possible for you in the future.”

- new tutorial this year? “Yes but likely out of game ones, so not likely related to the in game tutorial.”
- it’s possible the M48A1 maximum speed might increase, historically it was 48 km/h (ingame 45 km/h)
- Hellcat, T18 and KV-1S will be nerfed in 9.3
- hardcap on maximum amount of tanks of same type in one team (SS: as in for example maximum of 3 Leopards) is definitely not planned for random battles
- historical battles will not be modified to resemble team battles
- it’s most likely that VK4502 Ausf.B (rear turret) with unhistorical 200mm armor will be replaced by a Maus prototype (Storm adds it’s possible it will be replaced by the Typ 205A “Mäuschen” – 150 tons, 150mm L/31, 200mm frontal armor, 900hp engine – Storm however adds “No guarantees”)
- there are no plans to change (rebalance) IS-4, IS-7, Maus and Object 430
- Q: “What about new perks?” A: “Nothing”
- new physics in 9.3 or 9.4? “No comment for now”
- there will be a second round of the 9.2 test

161 thoughts on “14.7.2014

  1. - the T-62A SPORT experience, after the football mode ends, will be transferred to MS-1

    nice, thanks to that i dont have to go trough the awfull ms-1 stock grind

      • Yeah, I even left my bot on 24/7 and all I got were 102XP >:|

        But it’s sooo hard to play bottom tier, luckily I can buy a Tier 8 Löwe including a free of charge crew so I can roflstomp those red tomatos :)

      • Its so hardcore to beat those pesky T1 Cunninghams! I tried a new game mode: “Team Training”, i thought this would make a lot of xp… im still trying in the team training, but it doesnt seem to work. We gotta try more

  2. “- FV215b and FV4202 to be replaced? Tanitha: “The FV215b and FV4202 are up for work late in 2014 or early 2015. It really is too early for any information though.” (SS: my guess – FV4202 -> Vickers MBT, FV215b -> Chieftain P6)”

    Why do you continue with the stupid Vickers MBT SS? Really, lets hope it aint that thing…

    At most keep the Vickers as a CW award tank.

      • *sigh* you are right but I wish Vickers MBT to be left for some separate line… Can’t the try Centurion Action X variant ?

        • Action X had a 20pdr, you’d be replacing one unhistorical vehicle with another if you add the L7. And to top it off, noone knows the armor parameters of the Action X turret, so we’d end up with a fantasy tank again.

          • Big deal, the IS-4 used D-25T it has M62 T2 in game.

            Anything that can mount the 20 pounder can also mount the 105mm. You know that.

            Besides, I see nothing wrong with a 20 pounder C barrel with 250 penetration and very high RoF.

          • Buffing the 20 pounder on the Centurion Action X, maybe? Turn the Premium ammo into normal ammo, give it new premium ammo and buff the ROF in comparision to the Centurion 7/1. Maybe to a 4 second reload time?

            • Uuuuhhh, i would love that. Since the stock Cent 7 grind was one of the best and easiest in the whole game. So yes, 20 pounder with apcr (good pen), up to 4 seconds reload and enough ammo would be a good weapon for a tank even a tier 10. The only problem could be the price per shell in relation to the alpha.

          • Fantasy Tank???
            WTF E100 says hiiiiii and waves
            there is no reason why not reajust some of the stuff in the Action X Cent and also they already have a base texture model from the other cent’s
            vickers needs a complete new model which means more resources

            Fantasy or Not it would be a logical thing to replace the the Fv 4202 and also end the line with another centurion

        • Silent, with Your internal info, has Action X ever been considered? Was the turret researched when Xlucine (or whatever his face is) was checking Chieftain Proto? Are they even aware of it?

          Edit: Ninja’ed.
          But…, but…, but…, Listy was saying that L7 is pretty much re-bored 20pdr and they’re pretty much interchangeable. Please don’t stomp our hopes into dust…

                • Xlucine’s measurements have beeb very strange to observe. I’ve seen more than one person who has reason to doubt his findings. Never posting proof of his finds and being inconsistent with official records from people who either designed the tanks or who studied with them as professionals. The Chieftain in particular, every other source says different from his unverified measurements of an old rusting one that seem to imply it wasn’t armoured at all.

                  I remain skeptical, but I know many others less calm as I are beginning to feel he has an agenda to try and make things look worse than they really are.

            • I think there were photos of it floating around with claims that it is stored in Bovington. Hell, You wrote it Yourself in the article about possible replacements for FV4202. And c’mon… Some of the most beloved in-game tanks would not be present with an attitude like this. Be positive. L7 Action X is not historical, but certainly a logical next step in development, if British army would adopt it into service.

        • I personally would go with another Centurion variant at tier 10 (Perhaps the 9/1). While it wouldn’t be much different to the 7/1 at tier 9, it could definitely be considered a good thing (the 7/1 is one of the most favored tier 9 medium tanks in the game as of now).

          As for the Vickers MBT, the vehicle is a lot more mobile than the FV4202, and the armor isn’t necessarily paper-thin, so it has the potential to be competitive. Just give it ~2800 DPM (similar to the tier 10 soviet MTs) and good gun handling, and it would be a significant improvement over the current FV4202. However, I would save it for a second British MT line: the design that competed directly with the Indien Panzer back in the ’50s would be placed at tier 8, Design No. 46200 T (Vickers MBT Prototype) at tier 9, and the production Vickers MBT at tier 10.

          Finally, the FV4202 is perfect tier 8 premium tank material. It historically had very weak frontal hull armor (50mm) and only had a 500HP Rolls-Royce Meteorite engine (12.5HP/T), but it mounts the QF 20 Pdr Type B Barrel.

          • I would use Centurion Mk. 12, as you would now have a sloped 152mm of frontal armor and the L7A2 (an excuse for 5mm more penetration, and higher accuracy/aiming/RoF).
            It would be like an E 50 M but with very thin side armor (especially if side skirts were left out) and slower speed.
            Oh yeah and the IR equipment on the turret would make it look totally bad ass.

            In my opinion, suitable and balanced.

          • Another centurion makes sense, but they should probably start from the beginning and rebalance them. Centurion 1 is meant to cover up to the mk3, yet it still has the crappy mk 1 hull armour. The mk 5 was the first to have the 105mm, yet its ignored and the tier 9 is meant to cover the mk 7 to mk 10. Then mk 12 is ignored.

            Really there is 5 distinct generations of centurion which you would need to squeeze into 4 tiers for the games sake (rather than current 2). A41->centurion 1 (tier 7), centurion 2->3 (tier 8), centurion 5->6 (tier 8 or 9), centurion 7->9 (tier 9). Cent 12 (tier 10). Centurion 4 could even be a fun premium.

            Of course that would get a bit repetitive, especially if you consider other possible “commonwealth”(in 1945 anyway if not when the tanks were built) variants. SA has skokiaan -> semel -> olifant. ISR has sho’t -> sho’t kal

            • I wouldn’t mind having several generations of Centurions because although they may look similar, they have distinct characteristics. The spectrum of their development is so wide that they cannot be placed in just one or two tiers.

              The Soviet-Chinese clone tanks are much worse with regard to redundant tanks IMHO.

              • Your argument is invalid.
                There are no “clone tanks” in soviet-chinese high tier meds:

                Yes, Type 34 and 58 are simple clones, but everything after that only reensambles the general shapes, but plays completly different!

                T34-1: Better armored and better gunned as a T-43, but not as fast and DPM is a tad lower.
                T-34-2: Slightly worse armored T-44 with a big boomstick with bad handling, mobility and gun depression.
                WZ-120: Worse armored T-54 with worse mobility and gun depression but big boom stick – playstyle completly different!
                And the 121 cant be compared to anything on the soviet side.

                So if u say: “I wouldn’t mind having several generations of Centurions because although they may look similar, they have distinct characteristics.”, i would answer:
                “I wouldn’t mind having several generations of T-54s because although they may look similar, they have distinct characteristics. ” And i would be completly right….

              • To all of you who suggest things like Centurion generations from tier 7/8 to 10… you are a bunch of ignorants.

                The those Centurions look the same. Granted they got different armor, guns and whatever but they look the same! Maybe those tanks would do and be awesome for the people that put performance over everything, for people that read blogs like this but keep in mind that this blog has maybe 100.000 readers while the game has millions of players.

                If I were a player that didn’t care about blogs and only play the game when I had the time, paying for my premium account, not giving a crap about CW and ESL and only looking to complete some specials, I would never go on that line. “Those guys are crazy. How could they put the same tank from tier 7 to 10?! That’s soooo boring.”

          • FUCK THE VICKERS MBT! I’d rather have the british medium line end at T9, than getting my FV4202 replaced by this cheap piece of export shit!

      • Good, if WarGaming put the Vickers, then it will suck, will be bad game design (different gameplay at top of line) and no one would play it. As is right now.

        just a poor Leopard 1.

      • Centurion Action X, Centurion Mk12 for just two examples.

        The Vickers MBT is hilarious under-equipped for Tier 10 after a Centurion. It’s got worse armour, it’s bigger and only has -7 depression.

  3. why replace fv215b (120)? Its one of the best tanks on tier 10 in most aspects better then t110e5.

    • Because the Chieftain is a legend of a tank which actually exists and is much more deserving of the spot at the top of the Brit heavy line? Not to mention how damn sexy it is.

    • It WAS good when first implemented, it had same armor as Conqueror but a god like gun handling, it could shoot weakspots reliably ON THE MOVE, this was excellent tank right after implementation but then came the armor buff and handling nerf which made this tank… meh. Not bad but nothing speciall at all. I guess they want to replace it because it’s difficult vehicle to master, it’s very unpopular and in general it doesn’t stand out much. T110E5 performs almost the same role and yet its simpler to work with.

      • There are enough British heavy tanks to make a second HT line, with the tier 8, 9 and 10 slots having designs related to Chieftain (see OhSlowPoke’s article called “Commonwealth Uncommons – The Universals). I personally would replace the FV215b 120 with the Spaced Armor Conqueror: the armor is more effective, the engine is at the back of the hull, it isn’t a fake design (it was actually used to test experimental ammunition, so it isn’t even a blueprint either), and it only weighs a single ton heavier than the Conqueror. What’s not to love?

          • I’d certainly love to see an FV301 in game, and it does make a nice spot to put the Vickers

        • Conq with spaced armor looks badass, gotta admit that, however it would be a total pain to play. The drawbacks that ruin the current Conqueror are the big, extremely weak LFP, and the also miserable side armor. These are exactly the things, spaced armor variant could not help on, since spaced armor is only applied on the UFP and the turret cheeks. As in, the most vulnerable parts of the tank, the ones that really need the extra protection, would stay untouched. Not to mention, that these spaced armor layers are also quite weak, only 20mm of extra protection. No wonder it got totally shot to shit in the first rounds of the ammunition tests.

  4. >it’s most likely that VK4502 Ausf.B (rear turret) with unhistorical 200mm armor will be replaced by a Maus prototype (Storm adds it’s possible it will be replaced by the Typ 205A “Mäuschen” – 150 tons, 150mm L/31, 200mm frontal armor, 900hp engine – Storm however adds “No guarantees”)

    DIS GON B GUD ;__;

  5. - Hellcat, T18 and KV-1S will be nerfed in 9.3

    So with planned introduction of the Lights it’s shaping up to be one of the best patches in history :D

    (SS: my guess – FV4202 -> Vickers MBT, )

    Please, no, please, no, please, no…

        • Read something about it before you type.

          That said, go search for it on the web

          • Its an export tank. Exported to fuckin Tanzania, Nigeria, Kenya and India, no offense. It was supposed to be cheap. And in this case it means inferior as well, because otherwise it would be adopted to the British army.

            • Cheaper, yes, inferior, not necessarily.

              The British school of thought was dramatically different than the design principals behind the chieftain.. The vickers school of thought was more similar to German school of thought.

              • Ok, you have a point. But i guess it was inferior to leopard as well… (Modern tanks are quite hard to compare, when evereythins is more about crew and electronics than “hard stats”)

                • Actually.

                  At it’s time of introduction (an important distinction), the Vickers MBT had the best fire control system, even when compared to tanks like the chieftain and the leopard. The vickers MBT wasn’t cheap because it used cheap or downgraded parts, like you see in other tanks meant for sale/export, but because they used off the shelf parts and improved them and streamlined them somewhat.

                  In this case, off the shelf meant from the chieftain and other British projects. The chieftain’s fire control system was modified, while the ranging gun installed was stabilized, allowing it to engage targets on the move and instantly after stopping. The L7 was adjusted to automatically eject spent cartridges, which, with it’s other features, allowed it to achieve a rate of fire during firing trials of 12-14 rounds a minute, while firing on targets at different ranges (none greater than 2000 yards).

      • Worse armour than the Centurion 7/1, much larger than the Centurion 7/1 and crucially…only -7 depression.

        It’s just a cheap hand-me-down that happened to come out later.

      • Vickers MBT was an MBT designed by Vickers Armstrong for the Indian Army in the 1960s. It saw action in 1971 against Pakistan and was a success. It went head to head against M47 Pattons and Chinese-built T-59s and easily out-classed them.

        Concern of others with stats:
        1) Armor: Comparable to the Leopard 1
        2) Speed: 50 Km/h historical
        3) Gun: L7A2 105 mm gun
        4) Gun depression has been stated to be -7 degrees
        5) (Most important) It doesn’t look as good as the Action X Cent

        Personally I don’t mind getting either, Cent will look good and the devs can “come up” with stats as they wish since very little is known about that tank.
        Vijayanta I would definately get regardless of the effectiveness of that tank in game since it would be the first and only tank from my country.

        here is the article from SS a few weeks back:

        • Sounds awful tank. Only way to balance it is to give FV215b 120 like gun handling and +3000 dpm.

        • It would be awkward to put a Vickers MBT (export and cheap aka ‘monkey’ technology and overall an inferior tank to Centurions) on the top of the British medium line. Definitely a bad idea.

        • Type 59 is chinese variant of the T-54A! No wonder it easily outclassed it. The Cannon if nothing else. Same with M47.

        • Yea no … You appear to be uninformed about its combat role. It saw no action in the 1965 war .The main tanks of the Indian army were centurions and t 55s in the east. In 1971 the main tank of the Indian army was the t 55 . The Vickers barely saw any action . It was relegated to infantry divisions as glorified HE chuckers .The main tank of the strike corps remained the t 55 until it was replaced by the t 72 . the t 55 continues its role as a HE chucker while the Vickers are used as monuments or sent to the scrap heap.

    • I think no, the rear turret probably will be optional hull for VK4502 A tier 8 one

    • When this monster as it now is becomes a Tier 8 premium…
      Then kiss your asses goodbye! :)

      • Well since the armor thickness is unhistorical it can be 120mm too in tier 8.
        And don’t forget it’s historical gun would be the 88mm L/71 and the turret the Porscheturm with 100/80/80 mm

        • Well, since they stated they will never “do a T34″ again, I doubt they will give out premium tanks for free!

          A Tier 8 premium might be possible when it get’s nerfed to reasonable levels, but I doubt they will put the extra effort into it :/

          • As others have said, the 4502B will NOT be a premium. It’s fate is to be a alternative hull for the 4502A (with historical armor). If they end up not having alternative hulls then it’ll just be removed from the game. There is absolutely no need for another T8 German Premium Heavy

            • “There is absolutely no need for another T8 German Premium Heavy”

              That is true. However, what is VK would be sole Premium HT? Lowe could then be moved as a tier VIII regular tank with moving Tigers and VK36 one tier down.
              SS posted some time ago such a concept – Tigers at tiers VI and VII could be, finally, fully historical.

              • If they do decide to do it, think of all the confusion it may cause with all the lowe owners.

                One solution would be to just replace the lowe for the VK for free. But WG doesn’t do that often.

                If they do bring the Tigers down a tier, that would be great

    • Like Siren’s singing, their songs are always a sign of good fortune!
      Oh wait…….

    • I dont get why people are so eager too see the hellcat nerfed.it can only be played to its strenghts by a good player. And good players shoud now how to take them out easily . So its basicaly a tank every player here has and does well in. So why be happy that they nerf it too be more campy ad crappy, they just nerg our fun.

    • They were saying it was going to happen in 9.2 only a couple of months ago. They’re just going to keep delaying it.

  6. rest in peace my litlle poor fv215b 120.after they remowe you i will quit playing!!!

  7. Goddamn it, why hasn’t there been ANY word about the draw distance change (from square to circle) in so many months?

    I think they’ve completely forgot about it…

    • They haven’t. When something is discussed and then you don’t hear about it for a long time (please note that 3 months is not long in WoT terms), it was either decided it’s a pretty bad idea or the developers ran into some technical issues when doing it. My guess would be the latter.

      • As far as technical issues go, I’m sure they also want to fix a number of problems they currently have before creating new ones. Its also possible it just got shelved for a bit until they’ve worked through urgent issues. The same way that HavoK and a few other features got delayed.

      • That would also be my guess…ever wondered why we only get to see square maps and the devs have to resort to huge obstacles (Hidden Village says hello) to make the playing field “non-square”? It is because main components of the BigWorld engine run on that square concept.
        It is not that someone just said “Hey lets make that drawing distance a square”, but a very real limitation of the BW engine. I doubt they can make it circular (without artificially cutting the corners off the current square) unless they switch the game to another engine.

    • Remember that the draw distance change has HUUUUUGE influence on the gameplay…
      I hope they test it enough before letting it get live!
      I rather wait a little while longer instead of getting a messed up patch

        • Well… you can say at this point it WILL unbalance some maps, but WG should be aware of the fact that they have to alter the maps again…

  8. Okay wg you win this time, i don’t need mausturm on my E100, give me dat Typ 205A “Mäuschen” :D

    Woras, we going to need a Terrible Mäuschen driver topic :D

  9. T18, KV1S nerfs
    What about the FV304, E25 infection. They are now worse than T18′s, Kv1S, Hellcats, T49′s all combined. Even on test server there’s 6 of each FV304s and E25′s at least. :) sarcasm

    • You seem to be new here…
      Welcome to the “Common Test Server”, i guess.
      Where six FV 215b 183 and four arties per team are perfectly normal!

    • FV304 will likely be receiving a historical nerf, and a resizing (made larger)

    • E-25s and those pesky FV artys do need to be looked into (as in nerfed)

      In one recent match, a SU-100 and an FV managed 7 killes in a tier 8 game. SU spotting and the arty just throwing shell after shell on the target.

      The match ended in a draw with a Rhm B WT alive on our team and those 2 on the enemy.

      With that high firing arc, accuracy and rof, that arty reminds me of the pre-nerf arty. It can keep tanks perma-tracked and there is no place to stay “Arty-safe” with that cockroach being able to relocate like an AMX

    • It’s not an infection, that’s just a poor reference. The reason why there are so many Fv’s and E-25′s are due to their uniqueness. If you could have any tier 10, why bother play tier 6 or 7? Well it’s because those tier 6 and 7 are unique. I could understand seeing 30 FV 304′s in one game, because the other tier 6′s are just stupid. Maybe Tog’s there too.

    • Its not fast, its not stealthy, its not hulldowny, has no pen, doesnt aim fast, gold ammo is weak.
      Yeah, no need to nerf.

      • Woras, what should I do?
        Now that my beloved 7th skill Hellcat and my UP KV-1S are getting nerfed what Tier should i play?
        I don’t want to play Tier 8-10, because of all the statpadders infesting these Tiers, I really hate those guys in their SU-101 OP tanks always killing players that are below them just to feel good!

    • I don’t either, now I’m freaking out and need to know what the nerf is, and if I’ll have to start stocking CW gold to transfer my poor 4-skill Hellcat crew to something else… :’(

    • Simple, Any tank that is mass used for stat padding is a target for nerf. Hellcat and KV-1S are favorites across servers in this regard with that cockroack arty FV quickly catching up.

      Players with sub 47% WR usually have 52-54% on the Hellcat and KV.

      Good players who have kept their tanks have a 3-4 skill crew in these tanks. Imagine the but hurt of the new players going against them at tier 6.

      Hellcat is very stealthy, and once upgraded with all the equipment and a good crew can easily carry games.

  10. - US premium TD M56 Scorpion is planned for this year

    FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU WG, just FU FFS. I wanted to play that tank and now …. WG says NOPE, give us your MONEYYYYYY.

    • We’ve known for quite some time now that the M56 was going to be a premium tank

      • I have a picture of me and my Brother sitting on one in a park in 1988, it was already decomissioned by then. And it isnt armored at all, so would you wanna play it???

  11. - “The FV215b and FV4202 are up for work late in 2014 or early 2015. It really is too early for any information though.” (SS: my guess – FV4202 -> Vickers MBT, FV215b -> Chieftain P6)

    So, as I’m seeing it now, we’re about to get two tanks, that both are inferior to the tanks they replace. Which is quite worrisome, since neither the FV4202, nor the FV215b is an extraordinally powerful vehicle (to put it mildly). Yeah, I know, they can be fearsome in the right hands, but let’s face it: most of their counterparts are just better.

  12. So what the fudge??? We were promised Havok in 9.0 now we have no comment on 9.2, 9.3, 9.4. They were quick to show it working in the trailers but now it doesnt work hmmmmmmm…. Bullshit!!!!!!

  13. They need to just replace the US tier 10 medium with the M60A1 and stop fucking around with the M48.

    • WG screwed up by not putting the M60 as the US medium tier X. Think of all of the money they would have made from all of the players free experiencing their way the US medium branch to buy the damn thing.

    • A long time ago, I read a post that the M46 and M48 were going to be combined at tier 9 (can’t remember where I read it) and the M60 would be the tier 10.

      Then WG decided to “gift” out the M60 to CW winners.

      It would have made a good tier 10 with some polishing but WG thought otherwise.

      • Since the M60 is basically the same as the M48 ingame it would have been cool.

        Its Bullshit that WG wants US tanks to have togfight advanced Ruski ones.

        T54 in game has Experimental gun that was from 70`s with heavy hull from old model and Engine it never dreamed of.

        All in all its a T55m with upgraded gun and engine and is supposed to fight the M46 that was made in 1946. Basically a M26 with new turret…Lol?

        Then the T62a from 62 faces off vs 1948 model M48???

        Why not the real world rivals???

        M26 scared Ruskis who made T54 which scared US who made M47 which scared Ruskis who made T55 which scared US who made M48 which scared Rus badly who made Experiments which scared US who made M60a1 that then made the 62a.

        M26 vs T54 Mod 1945 @8
        M47/48 vs T54 Obj 137 with 100mm and a 290mm HEAT round @9
        M60a1 vs 62a and 140 @ 10

        • That’s exactly what WG was doing, or Tiger won’t fight with T29.

          If Hunnicutt is right, first M48A1 roll out from 1954. And T-54 mod 1945 will be premium tank.

  14. How will they balance the Scorpion? Another Hellcat type? But unlike most Gold tanks its cannon will be death incarnate

    “This gun could penetrate 8.5 in (220 mm) of rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) at a range of 1,000 yd (914 m) against armor angled at 30 degrees. At a range of 100 yd (91 m), it could penetrate 13 in (330 mm) of RHA angled sloped at 30″

    • That’s a HVAP (APCR) type projectile, gold ammo by WoT-terms. The gun itself is about equal to the T69 gun.

  15. “- new physics in 9.3 or 9.4? “No comment for now””

    I don’t believe they update physics this year, they know the get away with it, so there is no hurry for them.

  16. what the hell wargaming delete my T62A commander
    and he is not in the barrack
    f**k you wargaming

  17. (SS: my guess – FV4202 -> Vickers MBT, FV215b -> Chieftain P6)

    This makes no logical sense. Why do you keep going on about the Vickers MBT? It was a budget Centurion 7. The 215B is fictional and the FV4202 isn’t even a Tier VIII in its actual real form.

    What makes more sense is to replace the FV4202 with an Action X Centurion and on the other line replace the 215B with the Chieftain G1/2. The Chieftain P1-6 and W1-6 were prototype/experimental tanks. The alternative is to make both Tier X a W, P or G Chieftain. After all the Chieftain replaced both the Centurion and Conqueror.