Hello everyone,
yesterday, as you probably noticed, a new premium French vehicle (AMX-13/57) was leaked. It’s basically the same old AMX-13, only equipped with a very long AMX-13/57 cannon. There is actually very little information about the gun and the vehicle itself and it’s reasonable to assume that Wargaming simply “guessed” the gun values – the same, however, cannot be said about the AMX-13 armor.
With the introduction of the HD AMX-13/57 model, we can have a first look at how the AMX-13 armor will change in the game, when both the AMX-13/75 and the AMX-13/90 get reworked to HD. This is not just a speculation, as even though the AMX-13/57 hull is the early variant, the armor schematics for the later hulls are the same and thus, it’s reasonable to assume the armor of the AMX-13 tanks will be reworked to resemble the AMX-13/57 in HD. The turret might differ, there I am not quite sure.
If you are wondering about the history of the AMX-13/57 by the way, then yes, it’s historical – or, at least it existed in the plans and a mock-up was made. Very little is known about this very early AMX-13 variant, only that by the time the mock-up was ready (it never progressed beyond preliminary stage), the gun was considered obsolete and was replaced by a 75mm one (we have in the game). There’s exactly one picture of the AMX-13/57 and this is it:
I assume the modellers managed to do it simply because they took the hull from the original AMX-13 and gave it a small visual overhaul. Anyway, to the armor – this is the AMX-13/57 armor:
And this is the current AMX-13/75 armor:
As you can see, the vehicle armor layout changed quite a bit. The 50mm strip of the frontal armor was reduced and the upper lower plate (instead of 40mm) now has layers of 30, 20 and 15mm. This is not as important because of the armor thickness itself, but it is for overmatch purposes: 15mm – that’s triple overmatch even from 45mm guns. The side armor seems not to have changed.
Overall, if they rework the AMX-13/75 (and 90) according to these specs, it’s a nerf, although how big a one, that remains to be seen.
Did the gun armor change? Also, first!
you mean mantlet ? its different gun so who knows.
Also, let’s not forget that this is famous “french UFO armor”
Rules of physics don’t apply here.
We can expect occasional bounces even from JPZE100.
>french UFO armor
da fuq ? Have not already learned about overmatch ? geee…. People have opinions without proper knowledge…
That was a joke.
french tank drivers will understand. Sometimes you get to bounce unbelievable shot.
BTW. do you really believe this “overmatch” thing ? How reliable it is ?
I also heard HEAT and HESH are not supposed to bounce. Yet they do sometimes. No, they are not eaten or 0 dmg, they literally bounce off.
There is so many factors to the game …
for example.. 10% normalization ? Really ? Thank you! Works great with the +-25% penetration RNG . Altering random number by 10% makes just another random number.
Normalization is done to the angle of impact not to damage or pen so it is normalizing a very real calculated number basedoff the trajectory of the shell and the orientation of the armour it hits.
and based on that, it will calculate whether it did pen or not.
if the angle corresponds to eff.armor 250 lets say. after normalization the angle is changed and it makes eff.armor 240 for example. Cool!
and now you have penetration in the equation. Which is anything between 180-300 for example. What difference does the 240mm vs 250mm makes if the penetration is just random.
Dont get me wrong, im not compalining about RNG, I just say the whole normalizatin makes little difference. You would get same result without normalization if you simply rolled more pen. Or am I missing something ?
French tanks have weird turret angles, making them more prone to “lolilol I just bounced an Object 704″ events.
It’s not so much that HEAT and HE types can’t bounce, but they have a significantly steeper ricochet angle than AP type ammo.
(AP ricochets at >70 degrees, >80 for HEAT [it was mentioned that HE will ricochet at extreme angles previously, but it's no longer on the wiki for some reason])
QUOTE: That was a joke.
french tank drivers will understand. Sometimes you get to bounce unbelievable shot.
Indeed….JgdPz 100 off my ASS! :-)
The thing is, you can easily penetrate it already, if it has a lower armor rating, would it really change anything? I mean, how many tanks really shoot with HE? :)
You CAN get some lucky bounces on the UFP if it is at an autobounce angle, with the armour nerfed like that it is an AUTOPEN for everything. Before only 120mm+ gun’s could overmatch the UFP and pen it at whatever angle, now pretty much _anything_ can.
this.
And how often does that happen ? Once every 200 games ? Neglectable to me to be honest ..
Well the thing is, it DID happen.
And who knows how often that saved the life/health of a poor AMX 13 75/90 that later was the last member of the team and then was able to kill the last enemy? This certainly won’t happen now anymore.
The only thing I was trying to make clear here it that it def. is a nerf and that the armour actually did help even if it is still laughably thin. Now it certainly is completely useless so whatever, let’s hope that it at least is a buff to acceleration etc.
It isnt neglectable when it happens in tourneys.
It has happened before.
Also Peter,
I wouldnt judge it yet. Since after all we dont know how WG will compensate for the armor reduction.
Likely a buff to mobility, gun handling or even both.
I’m not counting that out, as said, I’m kinda expecting a buff in acceleration etc.
But honestly, I don’t really care. The AMX 13 line is not really that interesting to me since they don’t really match my playstyle.
At least I’m looking forward to not have those infuriating bounces on silly AMX 13′s anymore in the future tho. :P
Well Corvi, several weeks ago, a 13-90 bounced 2 shots from my tortoise… with his side (0 dam, just tracks).
nah, you would be surprised how often that happens.
I do shoot HE, mostly in CWs… E-100/IS-7 vs hulldown IS-7. mostly on map province… on westfield when campfest goin on, I shoot blindly on suspicios positions. in last month I killed 3-4 tanks with blindshots in CWs :) quite suprise to be shoted in bc25/leo with HE from E4 or E-100 in some random bush
It’s a terrible nerf since now, T49 will easily pen (full damage -900) AMX 13.
Yes it has some differents, but not thing will change :|
Like right now you cant expect the AMX 13 can bounce anything apart from some rare RNGs
This is kinda a neft but it will not change anything :)
They may compensate with gun buffs.
IMO if they do, we should look at what buffs it receives to decide whether its a nerf or not. For all we know WG may reduce the interclip time or buff the AMX 13 90 gun handling (It has terrible gun handling) allowing it to shoot on the move with good accuracy perhaps.
Guess we have to wait and see.
Yeh sadly AMX 13 90 gets trashed by most other lights easily. Also AMX 13 75 gets lolraped by both T71 and 59-16 .. The guns are just horrible.
Well, I’m currently earning XP for 13 90 with my 13 75 and I really can’t say i’m suffering. The tank is just lovely and although the new (or even some old) lights might be better, this one is certainly a pleasure to drive.
A simple rule of thumb is not to attack full HP enemies, spot them instead, wait for your team to start them and then run and finish them. Earned my 2nd ace tanker with 13 75 this way with 5 kills and 2700 damage. My 1st ace was also quite satisfactory: http://wotreplays.com/site/1298170#steppes-s0ustruh-amx_13_75 :-)
Just because you like it doesn’t mean that it it isn’t UP compared to other tier 7 LTs; which you did mention, but it needs a buff. I liked the Lorraine 40t too.
Sure, I know that. Maybe the point is that 12 t and 13 75 were my first tier V+ autoloaders. Many people play with T71 first and then hate 13 75, which is not fair for poor little AMX. :-)
I started with 13 75 and I like it, and I expect to like soon-to-be-in-my-garage T71 even more. It seems good to get used to a slightly UP tank, as any other will seem like a hufe buff (I plan to have both T71 and 13 90 as a keepers).
Happy tankink!
At least it caught their eye. So while they will be nerfing armor, they might buff the gun soft stats/reload, so it wont be such garbage compared to bulldog.
With less armour comes less weight, so I wonder if it will get an indirect buff to acceleration.
Armor and weight aren’t linked in WoT.
T-54 is a good example with its extra 20mm of weightless armor on the UFP
I have all the light AMX and I normally play them almost every day. And when I drive the new light tanks in tier 7-8, if I see an AMX is coming I try to use HE. Would this change mean that the AMX tanks would be easier to pen with HE? Even with the 100 mm pen of the Ru-251 sometimes it does not pen and it only cause exterior dmg.
less armour could mean more maneuverable and faster
Good point but I guess someone has to remember to decrease the tank’s weight when the armor nerf takes place … see if we are lucky.
Imo, the AXM 13 75 needs a buff on the gun, it is really bad that it has the same gun than the tier 6 uses. I like the 12t but I just find the 13 75 to play like a 12t in tier 10 matches !!!
Well, not so long ago your 12t was also able to see tier X’s in battle. It was best for passive spotting, hell I will say it was made for passive spotting. With camo net and 100% camo skill it wasn’t seen by most of the tanks on distances above 60m. I also liked my 13-75 but it had worse camo (but the fast reload could do the trick and it was way more accurate on the move than 12t or 13-90). 13-90 is for now problematic for me (44% WR), I hope I will learn to use it properly. The gun handling on the move is awful, I occasionally use it as passive scout and it works for me – IF the team wants to shoot targets I spot…
T49 likes it.
I learnt one thing – when in AMX-13-90 with full HP, show your sides to the T49 when you meet it. It may sound stupid, but in most situations T49 hits my tracks, does like 300 dmg and then it’s possible to rape him with the autoloader. When I was front- facing those tanks, they automatically one- shot me.
Still T49 can hit AMX’s turret.
I hOpe tHaT tHeSe ChangEs wilL coMe with mOre speeD
Less armor => little less weight => more hp/w ratio. :)
French lights OP! Nerf to the ground!
“15mm – that’s triple overmatch even from 45mm guns”
To be pedantic, for triple overmatch one needs *more* than three times the value, so it would be triple overmatch for 46mm guns but not for 45mm ones.
This may not make a big difference here, but in high tiers there are situations in which that disctinction matters: Soviet 122mm guns vs other 120mm ones. The Soviet guns can overmatch 40mm armor (e.g. Tortoise roof or Foch side armor), the others cannot.
Ok, I’ve tested two tanks and I have no idea what’s wrong. Foch 40mm side armor vs. FV215b 120mm gun – bounces. Then I took T49 with 25mm frontal armor against Panther 75mm gun – bounces.
There are 2 possibilities: gun calibers or/and plates thickness are wrong (even in Tank Inspector) or we need more than 3x.
That’s exactly what i have been saying. One needs a caliber of MORE than 3x the armor thickness.
An IS with its 122mm caliber gun will overmatch and penetrate Foch side armor at any angle, a T110E5 with its 120mm gun won’t.
On the other hand check ISU-152 (in fact 152,4mm)with BL-gun versus Black Prince’s middle plate (50,8mm) – overmatch works correctly.
57mm x 8 shells
90 dmg x 8 = 720 dmg/clip
1.5sec x 8 = 12secs ——–unloading a drum
Its pretty okay w/ that stats
anyways, i gotta get this…
Why not compare that to all of the other tier 7 autoloaders that do that so much more effectively? A T71 can do 900 damage in 12 seconds to, actually 10 seconds once you factor into effect that the first shell is reloaded – by contrast it takes 12 seconds to fire 720 with the 13 57, and and only practically 10.5. The 57 also has inferior penetration, by nearly 30mm, and horrible mobility comparatively. Yes it is a premium, but it is a very bad premium.
all right nerf its armor, but give the 1390 the fckin VStab.
I hope they rebalance the capabilities of some of the tanks at some point.
The 13 75 in particular needs improvements to match the new light tanks that have arrived. It was already heavily outmatched by the T71, and now outmatched against by enemies like the Walker Bulldog. The 12t doesn’t need buffs quite as much but could still do with a few. 13 90 is the most balanced of the bunch, although improving the speed to match that of the new LTs would be a good idea.