if you read the FTR evening QA regularily, you might have noticed one thing: Storm admitting that the E-25 is way too small. Or – to be specific: he did not admit it, he just listed the ingame client sizes. The thing is… those sizes do not match the bible of German armor design, the Panzer Tracts series of books by Hilary Doyle (who – in case you don’t know the name – is the most respected authority on German wartime vehicles in the world). Let’s have a look at how the sizes compare number-wise:
Ingame width according to Storm: 2,78 meters
Real width according to Doyle (PT 20-1): 3,41 meters
Ingame height according to Storm: 1,75 meters
Real height according to Doyle (PT 20-1): 2,03 meters
Ingame hull length according to Storm: 4,5 meters
Real hull length according to Doyle (PT 20-1): 5,66 meters
But how would such change look on the model? Well, Pantheist (EU) made a comparison, using the numbers above and made a model of how it would actually look, if the vehicle was made larger.
As you can see, the size increase is relatively high (width by 22 percent, height by 16 percent and length by 25 percent), so it’s likely that this would also come with some sort of camo factor nerf. There are two basic questions of course:
- does E-25 need nerfing?
- what about its premium status?
For the first question to be answered, it’s enough to have a look at the vehicle statistics in wot-news. The overall winrate of this vehicle is 50,2 percent on RU server (which is not so bad), but when you look at the skill curves, you’ll see that the vehicle is somewhat OP for any player above 48 percent winrate. So yes, it could use a little nerfbat.
But, of course, it’s a premium. And we all know what happens when premium stuff gets nerfed in any way. I am pretty sure that Wargaming wants to avoid “another Super Pershing” (as well as “another SU-76I”), or at least I was told as such. What baffles me is – why in that case did it take so long to pull from the store and why did Wargaming go like “buy them NOW, they are getting removed” – because what do you do when you have an OP vehicle? That’s right, you advertise it’s OP for a month before it gets pulled. *sigh*
I asked about it some folks at WG RU. Basically, E-25 is totally radioactive right now and noone wants to touch this issue – it’s a very popular vehicle and on RU server (or anywhere really) and if you nerf it, you’re going to be the Big Satan. Furthermore, there are allegedly other historical documents, that show the current E-25 dimensions as correct. I also asked Storm directly about this and he said he can’t tell me anything, so I guess it’s not decided yet on any level. We’ll just have to see.
I’d say it needs nerfing. Right now, a lot of idiots can do amazingly well in it due to it’s OP camo rating and that devastating gun. Great players can just own with this thing and it’s not cool when you get raped from 300 meters without chance of doing anything.
“devastating gun” lol? with gold ammo yes, with standard ammo just the RoF is OP
Most of those stat-padder “heroes” do use nothing but sperm and it does get very annoying then.
And trust me, there are plenty of these retards around to call for that nerf.
yeah, just the RoF is devastating, and the camo rating, but we paid for that, and it is what makes it fun to play….
believe me, i didnt buy it for moneymaking, just for FUN, when you get tired of boring tanks, just take an e-25 for a ride and enjoy ;)
Agree, I bough that tank just for sole purpose of screwing around and having fun…and as you said I paid for it.
Does that justify a tank to be op?
I wouldn’t mind a >slight< nerf and i also paid money for mine…
I’d say it’s better to be sometimes raped by invisible e25 than to be raped by perfectly visible su-122-?4 that you can’t penetrate frontally or circle with tier 7 medium and that can rape you on every map including pearl river or ensk.
Lots of idiots are crying because once in a month they are getting owned by good players in E 25s. Its fun tank, dont take away fun from game because of few vocal idiots.
Anything noteworthy on the topic that the e-25 is currently too small you can actually contribute?
“Furthermore, there are allegedly other historical documents, that show the current E-25 dimensions as correct.”
And by contributing, you meant something like this?:
“Right now, a lot of idiots can do amazingly well in it – Most of those stat-padder “heroes” do use nothing but sperm and it does get very annoying then. – Damn, “E25 fan club” in the action.. – *Grabs popcorn and waits for E25 lovers to react*”
I think, his mentioning of confirmation bias on the account of many non-E25-players (opinion, troll attempt, both?) is valid.
If they want to make it bigger, fine return my money were all good.
And say, with the size change it’s only ‘barely’ larger than the Hetzer, how much of a camo nerf could it be? If you think has OP camo rating, it will stay being ridiculously good after the ‘nerf’ as well.
Damn, “E25 fan club” in the action..
You guys can say whatever you want but E25 is too good. And the crappy penetration of gun is fixed by great accuracy, RoF and aim time. Personaly, i think it is OP.
*Grabs popcorn and waits for E25 lovers to react*
Pls change your Nick to RedBaron101. Thx.
No, i dont own a E-25, but being an unicum an shit, i say it isnt OP.
Why would i change my nick?
Because you are a RedBaron? You know, the same like a Tomato in WoT?
Ohhh, yeah. You are one of those “i want to be funny but i suck at it”. Well mate, i’m not unicum like you but i’m not red either so NO, i won’t change my nick.
Because the joke is on you :p
yeah but the shells are too slow
“it is very pOPular“ you say? I wonder how that came to be to begin with.
Right now, a lot of idiots can do amazingly well in it due to it’s OP camo rating and that devastating gun
I would love to see that. So far I havent seen a single “idiot” who would actually do any good with E 25. And camo rating isnt actually that good when you play. It is more like that on tier 7 tanks have very bad viewrange so how could they see you if they barely have that 300 metre viewrange you stated.
Haha all this butthurt gives me a laugh :D
I have E 25 and I take it to a ride occasionally. Yes it’s fun tank to play and no it does not need a nerf. I have no problem dealing enemy E 25s. I don’t feel like driving an OP carry tank when driving it. It has too few ammo to carry, and upcoming acc. nerf will make it even worse to hit weak spots. Funnel maps becoming the new standard and removing of bushes & open areas is also a nerf to E 25.
Who gives a shit about some rare E 25 players driving around? Stop whining like two dollar crack whores and learn to deal with them.
2 per side per game is hardly a lot – but similarly hardly “rare“
You can do even better in the SU-122-44, but no calls for nerf there…
Because the SU-122-44 is fairly rare compared to the ubiquitous E-25.
Well, I for one know what to buy with my gold refund after the alleged nerf :3
♪Oh mother Russia!
Union of lands
Will of the people
Strong in command
Oh mother Russia!
Union of lands
Once more victorious the red army stands!♪
Sabaton… Best musika for WoT
but the 122-44 is russian :<
The only balancing/nerf the e-25 needs is giving it regular MM spread like SU122-44. Right now it feels a bit op because it doesn’t ever get to see tier 9′s which would balance out its effectiveness just like the su122-44. But if such a Nerf is announced, ppl should be allowed refund option like the SP.
o.O You’re a troll, right? Right?!
That is with E-25 having regular matchmaking. Feel free to compare it to the SU-122-44. Now tell me again, what would you like to change?
I guess you didn’t buy an E-25 then?
if you think its OP then you should have bought it and then you could have seen how OP it was and then 5 out of 10 battles you play in it you will then see the not so OP side of it
They should make it bigger, but compensate with something symbolic like oh look a bit better terrain resistance. They are not nerfing anything serious anyway, unlike Superpershing that lost 50% of what was good about it.
If they touch it, I would like to have gold refund offer. Otherwise it will be a rip off.
One buy vehicle for its characteristics and rely on WG not to change it without the option to have refund. That would be fair
i think they should give a partial gold refund to the people that keep it if they nerf it because imo it isnt worth what i payed for if it gets nerfed
..i do agree, make it slightly bigger (cca 10% along with some small camo nerf) and it will be all right.
Since when does WG bow to player wishes? Screw their lame excuses! These bastids have nerfed the Super Pershing to hell (a tank which I loved – they didn’t just nerf the armor, the gun wasn’t worth its salt anymore too after that g’damn nerf), those f*ckers have stealth nerfed the Type 59, they can nerf that bloody obnoxious E-25 cockroach tank.
Alternatively, give that Panther 8.8 rubbish limited MM, and I will stop ranting about the E-25. :P
Btw, how do you upload a user icon to FTR? I cannot find that function.
It uses the icon linked to any social account you link to.
Mine is from Facebook
SP is still so good. Half of the players don’t even know where to aim at.
Icon depends on what you log through – gets pulled from that service.
The SP’s gun had been nerfed, not just the armor, that’s the real problem I was having with it. It’s way less accurate than it was before the nerf.
I stopped when i saw SP and good in one sentence
Sold SP for gold after the nerf and got myself a brand new FCM 50t. BEST. DECISION. EVER.
Also, I played Panther 88 on 9.6 test server to check if it sucked as hard as everybody was saying it did, and oh boy, I was surprised! I actually really liked it, despite the full MM.
And now I’m considering buying it… :(
Yes they did, just not your wishes, other players complained that this was OP that is UP then WG nerf/buffs according to those ‘active players’.You can’t have everything in your own favor.
dont nerf the E-25….its already been taken out of store just like Type-59…soon you will get less players with E-25s because old players will leave the game and new ones will join without the ability to acquire an E-25.
dont whine, the tank isnt even that OP (su-122-44 is more op ffs…)
Yeah, but the SU is Russian so it won’t be touched.
My good sir, are you implying a Russian bias? PERPOSTEROUS! This IS War Gaming were talking about, after all…
Nerf it as fuck and give me back my gold, wouldn’t even mind.
i already put camo and flags on mine which dont get refunded so noty…
1. it was already silently nerfed, as you are unspotted while you dont shoot, it was opposite some time ago. if you got killed by it from 400m, its not because of e25.
2. usually e25 just sits in bushes and that it,all reds do it, which leads to good battles 1out of 10. how much you see them on top of xp after battle, and how much in middle or below? :) su100 in 6tier also op, or su 122 44 when its top tier. yes I drive one, and have 6rings, which means lots of players play bad in it. so if you nerf it 2 of 3 players will cry a lot as it will be shit like SP now is :)
Su 100-Y is OP only against clueless noobs, it can’t hit anything on the move and it has the camo of the building with very little armor to speak of.
do you know its another su100 in tier 6 :)) anyway, im up for that all tanks would be better or worse, so you grind you get better and worse,its fun to wait for smth.
I misunderstood you then but given that you were talking about premiums it’s an easy mistake to make…
If nerf get gold back Simple Size/camo nerf no thx
Well, math is pretty simple: frontal area would increase by 61.2%, sides by 45.9% (ofc , for simpler calc I presumed tank is shaped like square box, real figures could be a bit lower).
Imo that would be significant nerf and I don`t think tank is OP.
How about they fix the size and *then* discuss if the camo factor needs a nerf?
The picture next to the Hetzer (sorry, Jagdpanzer 38!) is particularly telling. This is a vehicle famed for being nearly unworkable due to the discomfort of the crew space, and the E-25 is smaller, with a larger gun and a larger engine.
Indeed. Fix the size, do not touch the stats. Everybody happy. (Except the few noobs who do not have the faintest clue how mediocre the E-25 is on most maps.)
I have no idea why SS thinks camo is connected with size, we proved that wrong before the end of beta. Camo is a figure WG pull out of their ass for balancing purposes.
i want my money back lol
Remember when it first came out? All those experts who said it was rubbish because of the gun. Not looking so smug these days.
nerf it and then give my gold back, so i could buy su-122-44, which is OP in open field and also in city maps. e-25 may be OP in open field only.
and note that game is being more city based day by day, and almost losing %90 of sniping spots in open maps also. (you know, that corridor thing).
pls make it bigger and then give my gold back.
Yeah, SU can two shot the E25, where the E25 wouldn’t pen all its shots unless it spammed prem rounds, but you know, bandwagon faggots ruin everything.
Yes nerf it to the ground, little piece of SOB
my su-122-44 says hi
-Make it bigger.
-Give it more HP as part of the Tier 7 TD HP rebalance. MOST Tier 7 TDs have too little HP.
The size nerf that concerns me is the height nerf. Right now it’s *just* short enough to facehug tall tanks and stay below the gun, including the Lowe from the rear/sides, Tiger II from the rear/sides, and Tiger from the sides. Admittedly this is a gimmicky strategy, but in close quarters it is very useful.
I would be okay with a size nerf (judging by the animations it wouldn’t be a HUGE change) if they buffed something else to compensate.
It would be rightful to nerf only the size without touching its camo factor
WGN must get their shit straight. It’s obvious that this vehicle is/was hilarious – and there is a reason that they had to withdraw it from the Shop.
Adjust the Size accordingly, and match the Camofactor aswell. E-25 was spared with the TD’s firing camo-loss, but if the Size changes, the Camofactor must change aswell – cos this is ridiculously high.
Safe me with “when Premium Vehicles get nerfed” – how many times was the Type59 nerfed/adjusted? Aha..!
They will remove all current tier 7 and 8 prems with pref MM because it breaks the balance.
So what about the 122-44? Not OP at all eh? Stupid bandwagoner. All prem TDs were spared. Educate yourself please.
They are reluctant to nerf premiums because of the bait-and-switch issue. They can’t just sell people something – and then, later, retroactively change it into something worse. It’s arguably a form of stealing…
Could you imagine buying a brand new Mercedes – then, a month later, you wake up in the morning to find out that the car dealership came by in the middle of the night and changed your Mercedes into a Pinto without asking you for permission?…
Dealers do that when they update the firmware as long as you have free service. These days the manufacturer want to controll the flow as mush as possible. And if serb says that u should suck him u must otherwise you violate the TOS.
Tank parameters are adjusted for game balance and changes in one area may affect others. When WG reduces view range and camo of other tanks, should they charge you extra because your premium vehicle just got better?
And since you like car comparisons: what if lawmakers decided to reduce speed limits on all roads – should your Mercedes be exempt because you paid for a “premium” car?
That’s a shit comparison. You decide how fast you drive regardless of the speed limit, whether it’s right or wrong.
It will be a bit bigger than a Hetzer, so?
You can no longer facehug. That’s a HUGE Nerf.
Ferdinand also got bigger, we got no refund.
Didn’t pay real money for it unless you free xpd, in which case you’re a dumbass.
E25 has been “nerfed” to fuckdom (like all other turretless TDs) with the new “city everywhere” map design. There very few proper passive scouting maps or death alleys. Try taking IS3 frontally with E25. Hell, try taking Black Prince or Kv4. When the enemy goes full retard then yes – you can have a good game but that applies to all the tanks. Try carrying with E25 in stalingrad, khrakov, himmelsdorf, lakeville blablabla. I just hate all these fucking e100 maps. E25 needs room to move.
I have E25 myself and even though a size change is a nerf I really really recommend doing something about it. If it keeps the size I belive RoF should be nerfed from 2,5s to 3,0s.
This monster is evil!! Not touching premium vehicles when they require balance is shit…
How is E-25 OP? See stats. Discuss.
OP because it’s not Russian and whine.
Nope, you give them the sole valid argument and they will ignore you. It’s the same in politics.
What you can expect is a mix of confirmation bias, sheer stupidity and propaganda.
The overall winrate of this vehicle is 50,2 percent on RU server
so what you are saying is E-25 IS NOT OP!
Fix it. And fix the SU 76i.
Naahhhh. Dont be sily. Next u ask for ausf.-j nerf… 1 miracle a year is enough.
Rebalance it. Make it historical size but give it the historically planned ROF of 40 RPM…
Who wants to trade?
Historical buffs are for Russian tanks only. :)
I’d support this, but then they’ll change its camo value and that would kill this tank.
I think, they will not nerf it without any compensation to other stats or will not nerf it at all. Because if WG will make a gold refund available, they will shoot themselwes in the knee.
But if for some reason they manage to change the size of E-25, then it will loose one huge advantage it has now, which makes that tank more fun to play – the ability to death-hug some tall tanks with bad gun depressions. Have done it several times, have won several games only because of that.. Take it away, and tank becomes more “meah”.
I hope they change the size to the original, it is so ridiculous how small it is ingame. WG should really nerf it at least with fixing it is size to the correct meters.
What is the original size? Some document say that the current size is correct already.
OP or not OP it doesnt matter. I think that it is entirely possible that WG is fuieling this OP crap just to remove tanks from the game. By remove i mean nerf them info a fuckball of ridiculous shit. Like the type 59 “OP” tank with 175 pen gun, fucktard potato accuracy and effective frontal armor of 200mm only under perfect conditions. WOAH TIER 8 player cant pen 200mm!!! NERF IT! The type59 was nerfed not because it was too good, but because good players did well in a tank with 5 skills and grinding money – so they needed them to stop playing it and buy the next premium for their shiny gold.
When the type was nerfed into shit, players got IS6, E25 … then those tanks will be nerfed into unplayable pile of junk worth tens of thousands of gold.
Then players who are hooked enough on the game will buy the next OP tank that is the AMX CDC. This tank will rape for a year then it will be nerfed info unplayable pile of shit. And the next good prem tank will come to be replace it.
How are they supposed to fuel a Free to Play game otherwise and make millions of $$$??????
Type has 181 AP pen, it’s far from PzIIJ-kindof-OP but far from beeing shit aswell.
Ok, I see, we just talk as long about the topic until the Nerf happend. Even players will bring it on the table every few days. Yeah, lets increase the size what make the tank a more easy thing to target and then lets also change the camo factor, since its bigger now.
Wait a second, when its bigger we need to increase its weight as well and so nerf the mobility. Oh yeah. :)
Tell me how that little bugger weights over 26 TONS as it does now, that weight is completely unrealistic in comparison to its size, hell you can even ram-kill slightly bigger tanks in it.
So no increase in weight is needed IF they resize it, and camo+mobility MUST stay the same, otherwise it’s a completely different tank.
VW Golf driver looking at more expensive Porsche: “Oh my god this car is OP, nerf it.”
E-25 users paid for it, WG servers run because of money coming also from these users, so don’t touch it.
Gettinge raped once a week by a skilled E-25 driver and everyone is whining.
Back to the entry statement – I own neither a Golf nor a Porsche, but I’m not jealous if I see one in front of my car.
And where is the whine about Pz IC, Cromwell or T37?
problem is, that it is superslimtastic. It’s very hard to hit and this is going to be worse when accuracy nerf hits publicserver. And i’m saying this as a owner of this little bugger.
They can leave it as it is, i dont really care. The real balance problem lies at tier 2-4 with ridiculously overperforming PzIIJ and SU-76I, sealclubbing mostly new players, something that is toxic to a mmo. And if you mention this, assunwiped monkeys come out of their caves, stating it is too rare to care about, because people hardly meet them, but broken tank owners are allowed to ruin the joy of lowtier battles for others, pure logic. Anyway lowtier balance is something WG should have a better eye on, not loosing more players and allowing people to play lowtiers without beeing labeled as sealclubber. A bit offtopic, i know.
If increased in size I’d take it as a defacto nerf and would like the choice of a full gold refund.
As article suggest though, I suspect there is little appetite to push through a nerf internally at WG. Think of the tears!
So they found a way to nerf the camo rating WITHOUT actually saying we are nerfing the camo rating.
There are no plans to nerf it ATM.
The nerf will be alright. The tank will still be very capable and great premium tank.
As an E-25 owner I’m okay with this.
Why it was advertised?
Maybe WG had problems getting their holiday bonus payed for their employees and the holiday revenues didn’t meet the targeted amount. Who knows.
It was obvious however how much they tried to squeeze the money out of everything around december. They even made the Panther88 cheaper to have more money through purchases per capita rather than few crazy ones investing that much money in a virtual tank that looked like a not too well performing one.
They knew profits might stagnate once the missions are out as there would be more focus to get these free items. On the other hand sales for certain T8 premiums might have gone up due to beginners needing some tanks with punch to get the top mission goals (get XXXX amount of damage) managable before they can grind such tank in several months.
I like the E25 – I got it once ti was out. It got already nerfed slightly.
I agree that in the hands of a skilled player it can be desastrous for players. I also agree that it is even capable in the hands of average players.
Does it need a nerf though. Difficult question.
Its gun – even considering prem ammo – is a problem. It has high rof but poor dmg per single shot. So it relies on quite some rounds successfully put into target.
As it got a speed or mobility nerf at one point it is also quite in danger once uncovered.
Event the 800 hp can’t compensate for the fact it is a prime target once revealed.
It is matched till T8 with a T5/6 gun.
Whatever the bnerf may be – it should be chosen wisely.
The tank shouldn’t end up as a total cripple after the changes.
I’m not too sure if the size issue is really as nerf intensive as people think. In the comparison with the Jagdpanzer 38(t) you see it is still rather small.
I’m all for adjusting a tank to its real life statistics and sizes as far as data allows.
As for the E25 in particular we may have several key figures apart from drawings.
The E series where planned to streamline resources and to make parts interchangable.
I think as with the Panther family the road wheels used where the same dimensions.
The 7,5cm L70 is also a given more or less. I doubt they designed a different one from those used in the last models of Panthers and Jagdpanzers. There was no need. I think the gun mount and socket is not that much different than the one used in the Jagdpanzer IV versions.
So some figures to cross check with the existing models of the E series or regarding wheels and tracks to adjust within the whole family.
I f the larger size is coming with a slight loss of camo – I can live with that. As far as the vehicle doesn’t end up as useless after the change that is managable.
What bugs me most in this whole TD nerf discussion is that developers and players seem to be quite ignorant of how certain changes in only one branch is absolutely making the game losing depth.
TDs rely on camo and accuracy – not that much on alpha for example.
Actually the alpha damage policy of the branches and the nations is a catastrophe in itself.
The loss of natural cover and camo does its job as well.
In the end WOT won’t differ from AW just for the fact you can only drive mediums and lights to be successful and helpfull for the team.
You already see it in the development of team and clanwar games.
A lot of vehicles once dear are rendered obsolete completely in most settings.
I’m not sure if this trend of supporting drive-by-shooting will really help WOT to set itself apart from other action games.
yesterday I was able to turn a game with my “Toaster”. All scout vehicles vapporized in the first minutes. Most other vehicles ran into death as well and in the end I was alone versus 3 or 4 with a fragile and not too flexible vehicle.
I was lucky and/or experienced enough to handle the situation but I’m sure if the nerf really makes you dependent on your scouts that usually jolo-sacrifice themselves quite fast we will not only see artillery wading into the waters but TDs too once rendered without any chances and any advantage against the other classes.
Why not trying to think of other more global game mechanics to get the strings pulled rather than constantly destroying single classes?
That is my question!
What a text wall! I read it all ^^
I do not care if its IP or not … They all had a chance to buy E25. i think its best tank in I do not care if its IP or not … They all had a chance to buy E25. i think its best tank in game! Why they dont nerf Obj. 704? He can take more demage then 268 …
I will be asking for a refund if this happens.
ITT shittybads that get rocked by unicums in [insert tank] say said tank needs a nerf.
If all unis teamed up and drove nothing but Lorraine 40t for a month, you shitters would be saying how OP it is.
Stop trying to make all tanks shit and get better at the game.
This man^ yup I saw a post about the tortoise being op on the forums. Little kids are ruining this game. Literally nothing is blatantly op in this game.
Size nerf? Oh noes! It’ll still be a nimble little cockroach.
Besides…. there’s always the E-10 if WG ever decides to use the damn hull-lock button to do the pneumatic suspension drop for this and the S-tank.
The problem is that with any nerf it would need downtiering…
I own the tank and I’d be fine with a size “nerf”. The Hetzer isn’t exactly a slouch when it comes to camo value, and that’s the size the E 25 seems it would go to.
I prefer something closer to historical accuracy.
That this thing is currently smaller than a hetzer blows my mind. Just increase the size.
That’s it. Just make it the correct size. Done.
I for one dont think that its op and that a nerf while not a huge one is not the route to go. Imo it isnt going to hinder the tank that much. But its going to piss a lot of people off. Its still going to be high camo and people will still call it op afterwards anyways. Also its not even in the store 1 years time and its as rare as the type. Also 122 44 is way better I have both. Russian bias is reeeeeel
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