Removal of battletier 12 – what does it mean?

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Hello everyone,

there seems to be some confusion about the announced removal of battletier 12 in 8.11 (on Tuesday), so I’d like to shed some light on the issue. Personally, I was just as confused as you are, but in the end, I think I understood what the developers meant by this and it is a pretty elegant solution indeed.

For starters, what does it mean for tier 8 tanks? Will they meet tier 10′s more often? The answer is “no”. Balance-wise, it means absolutely nothing. Why does it mean nothing? Well, because there is this rule that a vehicle has to be spread equally over battletiers, that trumps everything else. In other words, it is a game mechanism that you will spend equal amount of time on all the battletiers. Keep in mind that this rule does work over your entire tank statistic, so “streaks” of you at the top (or bottom) are completely possible (I better say this before anyone starts moaning again about “rigged” MM). By the way, remember that “famous” post by a developer, where he said the better you play, the worse MM you get? Yea, that’s garbage, it was debunked several times even by Storm.

Let’s have a look at the tier 8,9 and 10 battletier spreads.

balance_89_ed1

Removing battletier 12 will mean two things. First, it’s a de-facto buff of tier 8 light tanks, their MM spread will be limited by one, which means the time they spent on that battletier will be distributed to the (easier) battletiers. Second, as I said, it means nothing for tier 8 vehicles (they won’t get any worse MM), but they will get shorter queues.

You see, tier 8 is very popular. Obviously there are the “grind machines” (tier 8 premiums), but tier 8 is also the first tier, where you spend a significant amount of time playing a vehicle. In short, there are many of those tanks in the queue and that caused long tier 8 queues on Russian server. I haven’t noticed the same issue on EU server, but it can happen I guess.

So, why are there long queues on tier 8? After all, there are tons of tier 8 tanks in the queue, let’s just match them together, right? Wrong. This is where the even battletier spread rule I mentioned above works against you – yes, there are tons of tier 8 tanks waiting in the queue, but all of the waiters are not waiting on free server space or whatever, they are waiting for tier 9 and 10 tanks, because even spread rule forces them into hightier battles once in a while. So, the reason of tier 8 waiting queues is not the abundance of tier 8 tanks, it’s the lack of tier 9 and tier 10 tanks so to say.

Now, why would tier 10 tanks be missing from the tier 8 queue? Simple. They have their own extra battletier, battletier 12 (those battles with tier 10′s only plus a few tier 8 scouts? Yea, that’s battletier 12). This is their “own league” no other tier can touch and by removing it, you “free up” all those tier 10 tanks, that would otherwise be occupied on battletier 12, to be mixed in with the tier 8′s. Again, please keep in mind that this does NOT mean you will see more tier 10′s in your tier 8 tank (even battletier spread rule!), it means only that the tier 8 waiting times will be shorter due to the influx of tier 10 tanks, for which the tier 8′s were originally waiting.

Please note two things:

- it is also a de-facto buff for tier 10′s (one less MM tier spread)
- it however does NOT mean it will be impossible to see a battle with tier 10′s on both sides only, these will however be more rare

97 thoughts on “Removal of battletier 12 – what does it mean?”

    • The odds of seeing tier 10′s hasn’t changed for tier 8 and tier 9.
      The question is: Will the average number of tier 10′s per battle in those battles increase?

      It might. For example, we might have fewer battletier 10 battles with only 1 tier 10 per side.

      • Yep, that is the problem that SS has ignored. While technically tiers 8 and 9 face the same proportion of battles against tier 10s, now that the tier 10s can’t be dumped into their own battles, there will be more of them in the remaining battle tiers as a proportion of the team.

        Whether this is significant or not is entirely dependent on the actual proportion of tiers 8, 9 and 10 in queue at the time you are playing. See the test server for extreme examples.

        I would much rather queuing than facing more tier 10s. -_-

      • You miss the point here. Remove tier 12 battle mean no more tier 10 only (and some tier 8 scout) battle. A battle with 1 tier 10 still a battle tier 10, and now tier 10 have 50% change get into this battle tier. I said it’s a buff for tier 10 too, now they have more chance to fight with tier 8. But that doesn’t right in opposite way. Tier 8 DON’T have more change to fight with tier 10. It only easier for a tier 8 to start a battle tier 10 when MM decide to put him there. Even if only 1 normal tier 8 (Not scout one) with 14 tier 10 in a battle, it’s still a battle tier 10. Number of tier 10 in one team don’t affect battle tier.
        Battle tier 10 is a battle with at least 1 normal tier 8 at bottom and 1 tier 10 at top tier
        Battle tier 11 is a battle with at least 1 normal tier 9 at bottom

    • Faster queue time good. I’m sick of waiting 1 minute plus. Yes I have a short attention span but this is a game, not a trip to the dentist.

  2. I’m not sure this is buff to tier 8 lights as all these battletier 12 tanks have to go somewhere, and where else than in battletier 11. So there is more battletier 11 tanks and we all know how tier 8 lights love them.

    • It is. Right now, tier 8 light tanks have to spend 25% of their battles on battletier 12 (only tier 10 tanks). After the removal of battletier 12, they will spend 33% of their battles on battletier 11, 10 and 9. So they will more often play with tier 7s, 8s and 9s.

      PS: Of course, it doesn’t mean it’s a buff. On lower tiers light tanks will be able to get less spotting damage, also as their enemies will be lower tier, they will not get as much experience for the dmg they help dealing.

      Therefore, tier 8 light tanks should expect easier matches with less exp.

      • This is exactly *wrong*. A tier 8 tank will never see a battletier 12 battle. You have not understand the effects of this change at all. The change means that there will not be any exclusively tier X (plus some scouts) battles anymore, since the MM will not have the option (or rule) to create battletier 12 battles. In reverse, tier 8 tanks will not see more tier X tanks in their battles – they will just have to wait less long, since the MM will be able to create the required amount of battles containing tanks of the tiers 8, 9 and 10 more quickly; that is because the *enforced* tier X exclusive MM setups are removed, thus making more tier X tanks available for mixed tier battles. Of course, there can still be tier X only battles, but they will be created randomly, and not by enforcement of an MM rule.

        A bit on the MM here. All tanks have a range of battletiers assigned to them. When starting to setup two teams for a given match, the MM will chose a single battletier for that match. After that, it will chose 30 tanks from all the tanks in the queue that contain that match’s battletier in their battletier range. So if the MM choses battletier 12, then only tanks with battletier 12 in their battletier range will be admitted to that match. These are only tier X tanks, artillery and some scouts. So if battletier 12 is removed, there will be no tier X exclusive battles anymore (or less, as I am not sure whether battletier 11 is tier X tank exclusive, too).

        • you are not neccesarily right

          Tank tier 8 will drop into battle tier 10 as often as it did.

          However composition of battletier 10 may be 1 tier 10, 1 tier 9 and 13 tier 8 or it can be 6 tier 10, 6 tier 9 and 3 tier 8.

          Now if we have long waiting queues for tier 8 we expect all battles of battletier 10 have only a handful fo tier 10 tanks.
          If we gradually increase number of tier 10 tank in queue, at first we will see shorter waiting time for tier 8 and then we will see partial increase of average number of tier 10 tanks in battletier 10 battles.

          If we have a way to magically double, triple and so on amount of tier 10 tanks, we would sooner or later see battle tier 10 battles with only a handful of tier 8 tanks and tier 10 tanks waiting.

          I have no idea how flexible MM is, it should automatically reduce the amount of t10 tanks with increasing waiting time for tier 8 tanks, but….

          • I didn’t claim a (regular, i.e. non scout) tier 8 would not see more tier X tanks. I only said it would not see more tier X battles. The change does of course mean that with a tier 8 tank you will face more tier X tanks on average when placed in a tier X battle.

  3. I like tier 12 matches, got shoved into one on my WZ131 today, got over 12k spotting damage :) Woulda got more, but after I spotted and killed 7 tanks from the WT’s and Arty I couldn’t resist finishing off a WT under 300 health. I shoulda resisted, about 3 seconds later enemy arty one shotted me :)

  4. I really like that :))

    I remember that pre-artynerf patch, I had a much more battles against t8 tanks in my T10, in fact, I was in T12 (or tier10 tanks only) match for the first time after about like 200!!! games or so. But recently, my T10s rarely see any t8 tanks, it is much more common to see FULL T10 battle with 9+TDs per side…

    So I really like this buff for t10, maybe it will finally have balanced MM and tank distribution after 3 years of arty bullshit and now this TD bullshit…

  6. I don’t get it how it is not a “nerf” for T8 and T9 tanks.

    Pre 8.11 the T10 had 3 battle tiers, so 33.3% chance of getting in a T8 battle and 66.6% of getting in a T9 battle.

    Post 8.11 they seem to have 50% of getting in a t8 battle and 100% of getting in a T9 battle.

    • WRONG.

      It’s not about tier 10s, it’s about tier 8s.

      Before they had the following chances (tier 8):
      Battletier 8: 33,3%
      Battletier 9: 33,3%
      Battletier 10: 33,3%

      Right now, they have exactly the same chance. So there’s no change for tier 8s nor 9s, just they will wait shorter in the qeue.

    • T8 old chances of seeing tier 10′s = 33.3%
      T8 new chances of seeing tier 10′s = 33.3%

      T9 old chances of seeing tier 10′s = 66.7%
      T9 new chances of seeing tier 10′s = 66.7%

          • no hes not

            the problem is not that you will see more battles with tier 10 tanks being the top tier it’s that there will be more of these tier 10 tank in each battle.

            e.g. if there is 30 tier 10 tanks in que then pre patch you would have

            10 battle tier 12
            10 battle tier 11
            10 battle tier 10

            After patch you have

            15 battle tier 11
            15 battle tier 10

            so this means that you will see 5 more tier 10 tanks in your tier 8 games as the tanks that stop going into battle tier 12 go into battle tier 10.

            Its not that you will be lower tier more often, its that lower tier will make up way less of the battle weight for that battle now

  8. Still dpnt get the complaining. So what if you are a tier 8 in a tier 10 gam? STFU and do all you can to win . Tier 8 is the first elite tank tier, you can have an actual chance vs every tank in the game… just do youe job

  10. Okay so T8′s will not necessarily see T10′s more frequently in terms of number of matches.
    BUT want to bet that when you DO meet T10′s after 8.11 that instead of meeting 2-3 of them your T8 will meet 5-6 or even more.
    Which DOES mean a direct problem/nerf for a lot of normal tier T8′s who can barely do crapola against T10′s…. especially given the long grinds.
    And the ridiculous T9 stock grinds will be even worse as they will meet more T10′s as well.

    I honestly don’t think this change is about “reducing the waiting times for T8′s”.
    Its about making the T8 and T9 grinds harder so that players throw more money at converting free xp to get to T10 quicker = more money for WG.
    Too many players, like me, were just stopping at T8 and T9 cos T10 held no appeal and just slowly playing our way through to eliting the tanks rather than spending much free xp.

    Personally this change still sucks imo.

    • For tier 8 TDs it’s quite ok, but what about tier 8 mediums that are in fact more than tier below tier 9?
      I don’t have much personal experience with other branches, but Patton is clearly more effective than Pershing when fighting same tier or tier above vehicles.

    • I have disproved the “there will be more T10s with T8s” thing plenty of times. I still had to copy it all over the place as you don’t read other comments before posting yours.
      And stop with your conspiracy bullshit, it can’t be further from the truth.

      • im sry but again if there are 30 players and 33% of them have to get tier 12 battles where is the 10 tier 10 tanks that would going into the battle going to go

  11. Is it the equal amount of battle tiers completely true? I guess Chaffee can see battle tier VII more often than battle tier XII. I even wondered if tier XII exists, because I’m almost sure that I haven’t seen it first 500 battles or so played before half of June 2013. My feeling is that tiers VII-X are roughly equal, tier XI is less frequent and XII is hopefully rare (and was impossible/extremely unlikely before arty changes)

    • For tanks with “not-normal” battle tier spread you won’t get all tiers equally often.
      It’s written even on some of tank descriptions in Wiki. And real life shows it too. I had similar experience with Chaffee.

  12. The explanation is based on the premise, that equal spread over your three battle tiers really does trump all.

    And when I look at my “battle tier” sheet I made for two of my tanks, it really doesn’t look like that is the case. When I got my Nashorn and Tier 6 Panther, I made a list how often I got into what type of battle, and BT7 is extremely rare for both of them. Only 13% of all battles took place at BT7 for me.

    Logic pretty much dictates that if there are no more Tier 12 battles to soak up Tier 10 tanks, there have to be more Tier 10 tanks in Tier 10 and Tier 11 battles. Also, if the MM has enough tanks to start a battle just with tier8 tanks, but refuses to because of this arbitrary tier spread rule, that’s a fairly shitty MM mechanic.

    BTW, what this is most is a buff to Tier 10 tanks.

    • Well see, your dictating logic is wrong. You assume, that with more T10s in the matchmaking system, there will be more T10s distributed elsewhere. There is no rule in the MM system that says this. There will simply be more T10s in the queue before the battle, so more T10s will be available for making matches with T8s and T9s.
      The MM weight and equal spread rules still apply, and I’m pretty sure there’s a limit to how many T10s, T9s and T8s can get in a battletier 10 battle. I have never seen more than 5 top tiers, because the ideal battletier 10 battle would look like this: 5 T10s, 5 T9s and 5 T8s. Mostly, it’s around 3 T10s, 3-5 T9s and rest is tier 8.

      • ‘I’m pretty sure there’s a limit to how many T10s, T9s and T8s can get in a battletier 10 battle’

        Unless the test server has special rules, this is not correct. Anecdotally I can remember tier 10 heavy battle tier 10 games on the live server. Unless there are quite a few less 10s than 8s or 9s playing, BT 10 and 11 *will* see more tier 10s as a proportion of the team.

        • Yes, of course, in a battletier 11 around 66% will be tier 10 tanks. However, in battletier 10 ammounts of T10s shouldn’t change, because:
          Example: MM needs 7 T8s, 5 T9s and 3 T10s. Currently, MM has 14 T8s, 10 T9s and 3 T10s (because most T10s are in battletier 12 matches) and can only create one match with those, the rest will have to wait.
          But now, more T10s will free up (let’s say three more) and it will be able to make two such matches. It will not shove the extra T10s in with the T8s and T9s.

      • I’ve seen battles with 14 tanks of the top tier in the battle and ONE tank of the bottom tier on each side. So I don’t think such a system exists.

        • there is no system for this

          battle tier only shows What tanks can get into a battle, This is proven in the original post where he said that you will still get only tier 10 battles if what you said is true there should only ever be a limit number of tier 10s in any battle

          this fixes the RU issue but screws every body who did not have a overflow of tier 8s

  13. “Well, because there is this rule that a vehicle has to be spread equally over battletiers, that trumps everything else. In other words, it is a game mechanism that you will spend equal amount of time on all the battletiers.”

    Are you sure that’s how it works?

    The link below would indicate that the MM mechanism is not

    “When player with tier 8 tank clicks Battle button, he gets assigned to a single queue (battle tier 8, 9 or 10 – randomly selected with equal chance) and stays there until template is filled with tanks – and subsequently sent to battle.”

    but instead

    “When player with tier 8 tank clicks Battle, he enters 3 queues at once (battle tier 8, 9 or 10) and whichever template gets filled with tanks first – he gets sent into that battle.”

    http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/239105-

      • Hmm, any official sources describing the “rule that a vehicle has to be spread equally over battletiers”?

        • Storm mentions it twice or three times in last two days. But keep in mind that MM mechanism has never been officially completely described. For example the rule that “breaks” the bottom-of-the-team series is not in Quasar’s post either.

          • Interesting.

            I definitely keep in mind that we don’t have a full picture (to put things mildly) when it comes to MM mechanics – however this seems to directly contradict what’s described in the link I posted above (i.e. the example that describes how tank with 2 eligible battle tiers is assigned to both queues simultaneously and when it’s sent to battle, it’s removed from both queues).

            Did Storm specifically mention that when you click Battle button, you always get randomly (with equal chance) assigned to only one of your eligible battle tiers – instead of multiple queues?

            Or maybe equal spread over battle tiers (long term) is achieved in a different way?

          • SS have WG talked about why this is a problem now? Because there is no reason that 8 should be suddenly popular – after all after the changes to credit making its much less necessary to grind premium tanks now.

            I suspect this problem – based on personal experience – is a direct result of people quitting tier x because they are sick of how completely unbalanced it is currently. Between the huge alpha TDs, and the autoloaders (and particularly the WaffleTractor which has both), tier x is dull as fuck right now. Its just as well WG are talking about balancing this year rather than releasing endless new trees, because I’d quit tomorrow if I thought they were going to carry on with last years cynical bullshit of releasing OP tier x after OP tier x.

  14. For once this seems like a good change by WG. Well tier 10 will meet less games full of t10 tanks and the possible dmg and the challenge there will be gone, but it will make the game more fun, as those only tier 10s games were sometimes longer that the other games. And given the fact that even on EU server you wait 1 minute on tier 8 and sometimes even more , think i have hit 2 minutes once or twice, yeah this will be nice. Also tier 8 can penetrate tier 10. Maybe this can lead ot a rise of win % for tier 10 and probably they will be nerfed, but this is too early to say.

    • Most likely there will be, but they will hide under Battle tier 11 mark.
      I kinda often run into battles where’s only Tier7 Heavy tanks on both of teams. It is theoretically a T7 game, simply without T6 and T5 tanks :)

  16. I don’t see how T8s should see more T10s in their same amount of T10 battles… After all it just means that more battles will be created faster, thus potentially more ‘free’ T10s spread over more potential T10 battles. The only true aspect, is that T10s will potentially get more “easier” battles, as now there’s a fifty-fifty for T10.

    @Quineloe: And how many battles have you played with these tiers?
    As far as I understand the battle tier is just randomly “rolled out” with 33.3% (respectively 25% (scout) and 50% (T2, T10)) chances. (IIRC from the video, the MatchMaker decides on a Tier and then starts filling it with Tanks that “rolled” the respective Tier based on MM weights and all that stuff)
    Statistics is a bitch, and heavily (!) biased towards the number of “rolls”, picking a ‘realistic’ number I say if your problem still is of relevant size (less than 25% T6) after 10k battles I would tend to start to agree that there might be an error in the System. In the end the “real” distribution can only be revealed after an infinite number of battles ;) (and that might take some time playing ;))

    • The MM decides on a battletier, not on a tier, and choses tanks from the queue that are admitted to that battletier (i.e. whos battletier range contains the battletier chosen by the MM for that match).

      • All this is speculation as personally I think MM is broken and this is not a fix.
        The problem with MM is the way it balances the teams 25% needs to be cut down to 20 or 15 as there is to much potential for the game to be flawed. Also all tanks need a individual battle weight not this generic tier trash, a amx acmile is crap compared to a tiger or a t29 is op vs a t25-2.

        This system is flawed there is no point in trying to get wargaming to fix it as this proves that all they care about is how it preforms on the Russian server’s

  17. So potential 8tier tanks will see more tier 10 tanks in battle with tier 10 tanks? Instead of 2-4(just example) tier 10, you can see 4-7 (just example)tier 10 tanks, is this correct?

    • No, luckily not. Because battletier 12 will be removed, there will be more T10s free to fill up the “2-4″ T10 spaces in battles with T8s and T9s. You assume that because there will be more T10s available, MM will just shove them into T8 games.
      That is, however, not the case. The number of T10s matched with T8s will stay the same, but there will be more games with T8s, T9s and T10s in the battle.
      Example: MM needs 7 T8s, 5 T9s and 3 T10s. Currently, MM has 14 T8s, 10 T9s and 3 T10s (because most T10s are in battletier 12 matches) and can only create one match with those, the rest will have to wait.
      But now, more T10s will free up (let’s say three more) and it will be able to make two such matches.
      I hope I was clear enough.

  18. Interesting! It lead me to a hypothetical question: After playing 10.000 games in a Type59 (or another tank with preferred matchmaking) AND never using another tank with regular matchmaking, If I then start playing tanks with regular matchmaking; will I then get tiered lower all the time to compensate for all the preferred matchmaked battles I previously fought?

  19. In short, there are many of those tanks in the queue and that caused long tier 8 queues on Russian server. I haven’t noticed the same issue on EU server, but it can happen I guess.
    _________________________
    I have. Most interesting, that this problem appeared only in last few weeks. At least when I take my T8 tanks for a spin, I always have to wait in queue for at least 30 seconds, sometimes minute, sometimes more.
    Interesting, why wasn’t it so obvious like a month or two ago? I can’t believe no one farmed silver or grinded to T9 with T8 tanks back then ;)

  20. I dont mind the change, however this is a symptom of bad MM rulesets. If there are several thousand tier 8 tanks in queue, just start pure tier 8 matches.
    Im frankly tired of 2+ minute waits just to force higher tier tanks into tier 8 battles.
    Once upon a tme there was supposed to be an over ridning rule to force tanks into battle after 45 seconds or so, did they remove that rule?

  22. The proof is in the pudding,once it runs for a while then we see the outcome.
    One thing is for sure you cant make all the players happy at the same time,
    its like a paradox.
    whine x whinge + happypalyer x Fanboy = MM to the power serb’s troll factor
    = Rage threads

  23. “I haven’t noticed the same issue on EU server, but it can happen I guess.”

    well my AMX AC 48 with 3-5min wait times strongly disagree =)…700-1200 ppl in T8 queue and nothing happens…HTs and arty are fine, but MTs (416!!) and especially TDs are the worst (T28P is second in line and almost same example as poor amx)….most of the time the queue works (for T8) just fine, but sometimes is really annoying….

  24. omg

    so many ppl do not understand how this will be..

    you just need to explain that instead of w8 in the queue with a t8 until some t10 are available.. you will get directly in that battle.
    is not more is not less.

    the big change is that if you play with a t10 you will play more with t8 and t9. because will no longer be a only t10 battles.

    i does not mean that now you will play more only against t8. you will play more with t9 also.

    is a good solution for the w8 in the queue!

    gg wg

    • Exactly. i’ve posted three explanations already, I’m glad someone else understands this :D

  25. First up, I’d like to question the statement that there is a mechanism by which your experience of battles across all available will be equalised i.e. if you qualify for 3 battle tiers, you will eventually get 1/3rd in each.

    Where is your source for that?

    I spent 2.5 YEARS on NA arguing with WG about their terrible 5-tier spread MM. I learned quite a bit about it in that time, including how misinformed, if not dishonest, they could be about it themselves.

    During that time I gathered a LOT of stats from many players, including literally near 1,000 of my own battles, to test various things. One of those tests was the distribution of battles against available battle levels (I prefer the term battle ‘level’; any high school science student knows never to use the same term to mean two things, so why WG should use tier to represent tanks AND the battles into which they get is beyond me).

    Guess what? If there was any mechanism designed to smooth it, I can only conclude one of two things:
    1. it doesn’t work, or
    2. it requires such a huge sample size it is meaningless for an individual player’s game play experience.

    When the KV-3 was tier 6 and qualified for 5 battles (anything from top of a tier 6 to bottom of a tier 10), I experienced ~72% of my first ~50 battles against tiers 9-10.

    Playing the E-75 recently on ASIA server, I have approximately 76% of battles against tier 10s. That’s after ~120 battles. Supposedly a 50/50 proposition.

    I could go on. And on. And on.

    I saw what happened when they tried to ensure your first 10 battles in a vehicle were as top tier. It blew the queues out incredibly (200+ of nearly each and every tier in the queue), so they turned it off.

    I saw, and indeed argued with them forever about, all their excuses as to why they stated, and I quote Overlord, “one thing we will never do is implement 3 tier MM”.

    In short, I don’t trust them to do anything sensible with MM without doing everything stupid beforehand, because that’s their history.

    What WOULD make MM undeniably “fair” would be:

    - a forced equalisation of battle level distribution PER VEHICLE over a meaningfully short sample size (if you play only 100 battles to elite something, what’s the good of a system that allows 50% of your battles to be bottom tier on the grounds if you play another 300 it will equalise?), and

    - implement a form of forced tier distribution WITHIN a battle. What I mean here is no more shoving two tier ‘x’ tanks at the end of a roster with 6 tier ‘x+1′ and 7 tier ‘x+2′. If including the bottom tier means the other tiers outnumber it by a factor of ‘whatever’, those bottom tiers should be dropped from the roster and their positions taken by the other remaining tiers (top and top-1).

    Good luck with that, though.

    Cheers

    • Playing the E-75 recently on ASIA server, I have approximately 76% of battles against tier 10s. That’s after ~120 battles. Supposedly a 50/50 proposition.

      You’re wrong here. E-75 gets matched into THREE battle tiers, bt9, bt10 and bt11.
      Battletier 9 features tier 7s, 8s and 9 (where your E-75 is top tier).
      Battle tier 10 features tier 8s, 9s and 10s (where you aren’t top tier – you meet tier 10 tanks).
      This is what you think it’s like, 50-50 chance right? No.
      There is also battletier 11, which comprises of only tier 9s and 10s. Therefore, you have 33% chance to drop into any battletier, however two of those feature tier 10 tanks (as there are no tier 11 tanks), so while the chance of you dropping into any battletier is 33%, the chance of you meeting T10s is, in fact, 66%. IF there were tier 11 tanks, you would spend 33% of battles being top tier, 33% meeting tier 10s and 33% meeting tier 11s. Since tier 10 is highest tier possible, the tier 11 spaces get filled with tier 10s and there you go.
      Your 76% of E-75 meeting T10s is pretty close to 66%, MM works as intended.

      • What you’re writing is very much true.

        The other doubt which should be answeared is whether tier 8 tanks will meet more tier X tanks? Yes, they will. They should meet tier X tanks every third battle, but if they land in a battle with tier X tanks, then in such battles there will be more tier X tanks after the batch. The reason is because tier X tanks will be distributed across only 2 battle tiers (10 and 11), so there will be more tier X tanks in both tier 10 and 11 battle tiers.

        • Not entirely true, I debunked that too, lemme copy that here:
          Because battletier 12 will be removed, there will be more T10s free to fill up the T10 spaces in battles with T8s and T9s. You assume that because there will be more T10s available, MM will just shove them into games with T8s.
          That is, however, not the case. The number of T10s matched with T8s will stay the same, but there will be more games with T8s, T9s and T10s in the battle.
          Example: MM needs 7 T8s, 5 T9s and 3 T10s. Currently, MM has 14 T8s, 10 T9s and 3 T10s (because most T10s are in battletier 12 matches) and can only create one match with those, the rest will have to wait.
          But now, more T10s will free up (let’s say three more) and it will be able to make two such matches.
          So the number of T10 matches will increase, not the ammount of T10s in those battles.

      • OK, fine, tier 9s get 66% chance of being -1 tier. That alone seems pretty daft (why should they suffer that instead of 50/50?).

        Having picked out that point, anyone care to address the other ones? The most significant seems to be the argument that this change won’t affect the likelihood of seeing tier 10s as tier 8, and that seems to be based on this assertion there is a mechanism by which the distribution is equalised.

        I’d like some evidence of that because, as I said, I have well over 1,500 battles worth of data stretching back years showing anything BUT an equal distribution between available battles.

        So when was that system implemented? Who stated specifically how it works? Is it per vehicle, per player, over how many battles? Details.

        Seems to me saying this change will have little effect based on something for which there is no evidence offered is rather optimistic at best.

        • To answer your T9 dillema: 66% of the time being -1 tier is bad? Think of this like a tank with prefferential matchmaking – it only gets to see one tier higher, like the Superpershing or Panther M10. It is true, however, that T9s will spend 66% being -1 tier while Panther M10 will spend just 50% being -1 tier. But I don’t really mind that, most tier 9 vehicles are able to fight T10s just fine (M103, IS-8, T30 and other stuff with big guns – WZ-120)

          And I am 100% certain that there is a rule about the ammount of T10s in a battle, because most battles are pretty uniform – 4 T10s 5 T9s and rest T8.
          Of ciurse there are battles with lots of T10s or a T10 and a T9 and 13 T8s, but those are the retaerded offspring of small numbers of vehicles in the MM system, so other rules override it – equal battletier spread, or MM weight.

  26. Also, I’d like to comment on the issue of queue length.

    Throughout my history of MM discussions, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of respondents to my polls on the subject (some of those polls got literally many hundreds of votes on NA) stated they would rather wait LONGER than always get stuck at the bottom tier all the time.

    Whomever is celebrating this supposedly shorter queue time presumably plays top tier all the time, plays top tier arty, or doesn’t care about what their distribution of battles is.

    I put it to you that those with that attitude would still be a minority.

    Of course nobody from WG has ever bothered to ask what we think about it in ASIA, but then they never asked us about anything when I was in NA, either.

    • I think you misunderstand the effects. The reason you are waiting now, is that MM has already selected you for a higher tier battle and it has to wait for enough high tier tanks to be available to start. In other words, nothing changes except the wait time. You still get the same number of high tier battles.

      • I never said I was waiting. I have absolutely no issue with the wait time on ASIA server, and have seen virtually zero complaints from anyone about it.

        We also saw the ‘explaining mechanics’ video about MM that points out it relaxes its rules over time in the queue (30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes from memory…or something like that), so I never sit in the queue over 30 seconds anyway.

        The MM thread is full of absurd battles (2 tier 10 v 7 tier 10, anyone?). We never see WG comment on any of those, do we?

        • A lot of those 2 T10 vs 7 T10 are old pictures, or absurd creations of MM weight.. sure, one side has 7 T10s, but it also has 0~2 T9s and shitty T8s, while the other team has more T9s or vehicles with high MM weight.
          I once saw a match where one team had an IS-4 and then like Pershings and scouts, while the other didn’t have a T10 but had 6 type 59s. This happens with small numbers of queueing vehicles, resulting in waiting times, which consequently relax the MM rules.
          On EU server, the worst I’ve ever seen was a Tier 8 only battle yesterday. I’ve never seen such extreme cases, or maybe three in my two years of playing. I do however play at times when there are plenty of vehicles – in the evening, in the weekend.
          If you play at 2 AM however, anything can happen when there is maybe 1% of players online.

  27. It’s a buff for all those morons driving T10 “invincible tonks”. Now they will have more t8s to rape instead of doing nothing against other t10s.

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  29. Thanks for this clarifying post SS, I was under the (false) impression that tier8s would spend more time with tier10s, but as you point out, this is not the case. Thumbs up!

  30. The explanation is nonsense. Tier 8 tanks won’t be seeing more tier 10, but Tuer 10 will be seeing more Tier 8? Incompatable statements. The MM does not work as you say, it is common to have a play session of 15-20 games on T8 and never see a T8 match. The games are not and have never been evenly spread across battle tiers. T8 is the toughest to play as 80-90% of the matches are against T10. So how will this make that better?

    I think the big problem is the premiums which get special matching, locking up slots in the battle tiers so normal T8s have to go to a higher battle tier. You will see T8 battles often on a Super Pershing, but never on my KV4. Well, not never, but I kept track until I got too frustrated, and had 27 T10 battles in a row on it. That was the record

  31. So the question is. Does the server remember how many battles of which tier you had? Or is it just some session temporary value?

  33. zgadzam się z opinią iż X są za mocne na VIII co ma biedny czołg zrobić ze słabą penetracją ?
    nie powiem o amx50100 ktory na bank dostanie 1szota od FV a moze nawet i od Jaggera
    5vs7 zgadzam sie. 6vs8 tak
    ale ani 7vs9 NIE i 8vs10 NIE ! to nie jest balans
    powinno być od 8 poziomu +1 czyli
    5vs7 , 6vs8 7vs8 8vs9 i 9vs10 to jest balans dobry..
    a i arty powinny mieć mniej pocisków o ok 50% !

  34. Thanks for clearing this issue up. With how vague the information available on matchmaking is, it’s rather easy to come to incorrect conclusions of this sort.

  35. Actually… T8 could be matched together in ANY of the 8-9-10 BT …

    - Why?

    Because you can put any tank in any of the slot in a BT. You can create BT 10 which only includes T8 tanks… Because every tank is capable of BT 10 match so there is nothing wrong in the eyes of MM. The problem is the slot system developed by WG which can’t handle humongous amounts of same tier tanks. Because it was coded to not give too many full Tier XYZ battles due to ‘more variety’.

    —

    Another thing about ‘even spread in battletiers per tank’ is bullcrap. You yourself should remember your post about WG balance factor based on your performance. Yes it does apply to everyone in average range, but if you suck big time you are just bad and are put to lower BT mover often. If you are good you are put to higher range more often.

    Bad high tiers meet good low tiers more often while good low tiers meet high tiers more often. You can argue about the equal spread, but for me it is non-existent. There are more bad than good players, thus the que trouble of T8 is apparent as there is large pool of bad players waiting for the lower battle tiers.

    Feel free to comment on, I’d like to have my head shaken of this, but this is how I’ve gathered things this far.

  36. I’m OK with this change, although from experience on the EU server tier eight isn’t a big problem. Tier six on the other hand is- at peak times tier 6 often has twice as many players as any other tier, once almost the same number of people queuing for every other tier combined!

    This creates a bit of a problem at the low tiers, especially tier four- playing a non premium tier 4 tank will see you landing in tier six games 50-75% of the time, often only seeing tier four max games if someone brings a capped MM premium tank to the field.

    Given that tier four is the first tank you have to seriously play through and are unlikely to grind out in anything less than a few days new players to the game will hit tier four in a few days then get caught in a slump as they’re presistantly forced to fight tanks which are virtually impregnable and who can take the newbie out in a single shot which is an extremely despiriting position to be in and I can see a lot of players being put off by it.

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