Hello everyone,
Czechoslovak forum section of the EU forums is a neverending source of entertainment, mostly because of the silly flamewars, that take place there. However, sometimes WG employees join the fray and that’s when the real fun starts.
Short background: the latest dramathread involves player Biggpete, who started complaining that his medium tank gold shells, which he allegedly bought for gold, were forcibly sold for credits and that he wants his gold, which he “invested”, back. The new Czechout new community organizer Karlie tried to reason with him, but the discussion escallated, with several players starting to act as tough e-lawyers (gotta love those), saying the EULA is not valid because it’s not mutually beneficial, but one-sided and other stuff.
Enter YouryBuenaventura, an angry WG customer support employee, who entered the thread with the force of a hurricane and started explaining the situation thus (a translation):
“This whole discussion is based on the wrong assumption, that you are “buying” something. To be honest, I haven’t read the whole EULA myself (SS: competent support ftw), but I will bet my shoes that it’s written there somewhere that the whole game is the property of Wargaming, and the players are getting only the temporary possibility to play it. Actually, they are simply “leasing” some parts of it. So it’s not a sale, but a lease. That’s very important to realize.
Furthermore, when you talk about investing, I will also use a comparison – this is not a commodity market, more like a Disneyland. Buying ingame MMO currency can be considered about the same “investition” as buying Disneyland tickets. To talk in this situation about a “contract profitable for one side only”, while you are re-validating it every few months and to complain about it afterwards, you must be joking right now?
Yes, some of the players did lose on this and we can’t help them in this. That’s how it is, my friends. To repeat this argument over and over, that you can buy lease the ammo again and use it is not needed. And the moral of today’s story is? Don’t hoard premium ammo.”
And here’s a screenshot:
I mean… the guy is right (at least I agree with him, but then again, I never hoarded ammo), but it does sound an awful lot like one big FUCK YOU. Nothing like kind and supportive employees, eh? Anyway, I don’t think anyone will be getting the gold they spent on gold ammo back.
There is a pretty simple reason: for Wargaming, any “compensations” in gold are extremely tedious to make, because gold is the ingame currency purchaseable for real money, so the transaction has to be totally bulletproof for one and second, it will probably be very hard to find out, which shells were bought for gold and which weren’t. Doing this manually is impossible – and automatically? Probably just not worth doing.
It’s not like he couldn’t have just bought back the replacement shells for the credits they gave him… Since you can get them that way now.
Agree. Still, there is that nagging thought of the forced sales. I think PR-wise, it would be better to simply change that type of shell sell price for the full price (that can be done easily, remember 32pdrs?) and let the players decide themselves, whether they want to sell the shells or not.
You are right SS. They should have been able to sell it for full price back to WG at a time of their choosing. I really don’t get, other then a few exceptions, why WG even had to force sell the ammo. With the SU-26′s 122mm I get it but some of the other tanks… not so much.
I do however like WGs gift to me of a T9 radio free of charge on my T57 SPG and M37 swap along with xp reduction in SPG unlocking. But overall the shell thing is just a bad decision that was poorly thought out and they could have handled better from the get go.
Also, somebody fire that guy for his bad PR job.
NEMO.
Another fine example of wg support perssonel. Are you wondering why your support ticket receives an automatic reply? Because of “I didnt read the EULA” guy handling your ticketz.
i read this and i saw interactive special videos i dont have any more doubts now
:D
I find it funny that they treat gold as real currency (its not), its that fallacy that gets many people angry about economy changes to deal with gold prices, but the fact is, your real money was spend to get a sum of gold, you did not buy those shells with real money, but fake currency you payed for the privilege to use in small quantities.
The problem is that no matter how you explain this argument, it always sounds like a big FUCK YOU to the customers, because the ones complaining, are the ones who don’t understand the mechanics of the transaction.
If WG.net was as terrible as everyone always complains, they would steal all your credit card details, drain your accounts dry, and then sell your details to identity thieves on various black markets.
facebook sells your data if you share
The better you explain it, the more it becomes obvious that the current implemtentation is in fact a very big FUCK YOU to the consumers.
The fact that WG isn’t a criminal organization doesn’t make the a consumer friendly company.
SS does this kind of shit-drama happen often on the EU forums?
Yes, but if you avoid getting sucked into the forums you don’t notice it too much. =)
I don’t play EU (i play RU) hence i haven’t even been there, the only topic i ever visited was about the tank names (was looking for info on what AMX or ARL stood for).
Was just interested in reading tank-drama, you know when people do stupid shit and then blame WG =3
Well, yes, I just don’t report most of it, because it’s not as funny.
Really can’t feel any sympathy for someone who paid to win (or at least, paid so he had to put significantly less effort into winning).
If he’d bought premium time or a cash tank and they’d subsequently been lost, then yea. But contributing to one of the primary problems at most tiers? Nnnnnnnope.
And as always, it’s amusing to see someone not read the EULA before trying to argue about their “purchases”.
I think the issue is more of a “wg employee didn’t read the eula”)
Yah its a bad job of the employee to not read what he is supposed to be knowledgeable about. But then to cover everything he would need to know a lot and I doubt there are very many at WG who know everything.
All they did, was to make use of the “resupply special” (-50% to premium shells) at January.
E.g. I bought 2000 HEAT shells for the E-100 at a price of 2.400 credits. They sold my shells for 2.400 credits and now they want me to pay 6.000 credits per shell?
In real life this would be robbery, but gaming companies got their niche. But this won’t last for too long. Lawsuites are already working on the problem with global gaming companies.
Robbery? Really?
Shells are bought at the gold to credit exchange ratio. So if you are just going to buy prem ammo, then say 6 gold is same as 2.4k.
Refunding gold is technically impossible in this case, so explain to me, how the refund of the exact equivalent of your gold in credits (which both aren’t physical goods) is a robbery. And then please follow up with a good explanation why you are so god damn special that in game parameter rebalance shouldn’t affect you.
Until those very good explanations are provided, you are just entitled idiot who can’t wrap his head around that this isn’t physical goods market.
@Angry Mob:
No knowledge about law, but a big and insulting mouth. You already lost me.
First of all, it doesn’t matter if it’s a “physical good” or not. It’s a “supply of a service”, which is also covered by law.
Secondly, if you don’t understand that taking away your shells (bought for 2.400) and doubling the price afterwards (6.000) means a very big loss for you, then I can’t help you.
Edit: I forgot to add that I didn’t agree on this.
support employee that hasn’t read the EULA WG is forcing on our throats – and Frank agrees with him .. geee
and no, EULA has ZERO legal value
items sold by WG are property, not leases
nowhere is specified that buying gold or a package is a lease
“and no, EULA has ZERO legal value”
Inernet lawyer at his best LMAO.
before you blah blah blah
might wanna check the Oracle suit – here link: http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf
First don’t get fixed on the word lease.
It was only used so it is easier to understand for everyone.
And what you link has nothing to do with WoT or WG account.
You don’t buy any software.
All you do is change the status of your digital account.
That is a service provided by WG and it is covered by Terms of Service.
(you also agreed to them when creatign an account)
Now read the section “Virtual Goods” in the ToS…
iTunes or amazon accounts should hold similar rules.
Judging from the rports by people that got banned or lost (parts) of their collection within those.
greetings
a lease is a time limited contract with specifically determined beginning and end dates
now, when you buy gold or any other stuff from the store where does it say it’s a lease?! absolutely nowhere
I created my account in 2010, back in the days of CBT and not once since then, visiting the on-line web store you get prompted to read EULA or TOS – not once in 3 years
EULA, TOS, have no legal standing or value as a contract or any other legal value simply because WarGaming cannot prove you signed it
Yes you have to agree to them when using the services.
I checked a box that I read them (not in 2010 but I doubt it was different).
There are also rules that you agree silently by using a service.
That is the most normal thing in the world.
You agree to hundreds of rules by entering a normal “offline” shop.
Our modern world would work if we had to sign everything each time.
And even not knowing does not save one in all cases.
Of cause a court can decide a rule can not applied or it can not applied silently or needs to be agreed a certain way (like even personal signed in the hardest case).
But that needs a legal case.
You can not simply say these rules are not true for you
greetings
zMeul, you get prompted every patch. The links to the EULA/TOS are at the bottom of the log in screen, at the bottom of the Portal, There’s a disclaimer re virtual goods on the buy gold page. Do you really want WG to put a EULA/TOS confirmation up on all those? For something so pervasive no on the internet that kids younger than the OS would allow to play know and understand exists? Please. That would be an annoying, and useless, gesture.
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf
Nice link, completely irrelevant though.
” EULA is only whishlist of developer”
BS.
EULA is just as valid as any other agreement. IF – and only IF – it has an illegal clause then it can be considered not valid as a whole or partially. The decision is up to the court, so go ahead sue wg. Contact your lawyer or ECC-Network or some other consumer organisation, make them analyse wargamings eula.
MOAR INTERNET LAWYERS PLZ!
why more? You’re one of them, it’s enough :)
Must to add, retarded e-lawyer, cause you’re arguing with “whishlist” and talk exactly the same about law and illegal parts.
@anon July 8, 2013 at 10:20
Too bad for you, I had law during my course, while you and 99.999% of internet lawyers didn’t have any experience with law, maybe except the police in gta.
But k, spew moar bullshit, it’s funny to read.
If common practice is wishful thinking to you, that is a clear indication you have absolutely no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
when that “agreement” affects my rights according to the laws in my country, or EU laws, that “agreement” is illegal – EULA is not law, EULA does not superseed law, EULA has to be in the letter of the law to have validity
and yes, WG’s EULA restricts my rights, thus becoming a invalid pile a shit
@zMeul
Which parts of eula are “illegal”? Which points of it are contradicting with which EU regulations and with which acts of your country’s law, specifically? Also – EULA is valid until the court states otherwise.
Go ahead, sue wg, what are you all e-lawyers waiting for ffs? It’s always the same thing – all of you scream “EAULA NOT VALID” and yet, you still play the game and don’t file a complaint. Reminds me of the last years banning action – guys bought gold from resellers via e-bay-like site, got banned and threatened to sue wg. Nothing happened. Until you actually sue wg and win – you’re all-just-talk pussbag with a bonus chromosome.
depends on country, but yes, EULA is only whishlist of developer, because sometimes it MAY be in conflict with local law and then developer can put that EULA in his ass cause local law > EULA. MMOs like WoT are specific case, because, well, it’s mmo and you play it remotely.
there was a proceeding, dunno about it’s development or even finalization regarding the EULAs and their illegal nature in EU
even ValvE is under pressure by German court, they got slammed with a suit over new EULA policy that infringes on ownership rights
there are very strong indications Valve will allow users to trade their games
btw you cant sell wot account – illegal
but you can sell account right to use – legal
Scary internet lawyer thinks he’s the laughing man. #rare #woah #unique
WoT is played in hundreds of countries with very different legal systems.
I am absolutely shure that there are legal systems in which the EULA has relevance and the word lease is properly used.
Not where I live though. But then the courts of my country will have a hard time forcing WG to do anything.
Short version: If you want your rights, stop playing games by companies from different countries. Cause if you do, you bend over for them and just hope for the best…
WG is the most unfriendly company ever. I used to play Wow and LoL as a pro gamer and never in 10 years of gaming had 1 problem. With WG there are problems every day. But than again im hooked on tanks and i love the game so i wont quit it because of bad support team.
“most unfriendly company ever”
I’m pretty sure there have been worse companies, like Enron and BoA.
But then again EA got voted worst company in America for last 2 years running, yet manage to turn a profit and not destroy peoples lives…
But then again EA’s resources are stretched out, while WG has like… 2 games at the moment. And considering how much money they make supporting them should not be a problem.
But yeah. They are russians. What can you do.
But what happens if you get a tank via the gift shop??? I did that with the Superpershing. They chared me i dont know it was 27 Euros i belive at the time. Isn’t this a buyin contract ? Even if they say it is leased they have to tell you you only lease the tank for 27 Euros. Or dont they? I’am no lawyer but they really have to clear that issue because it is quide a grey area many people don’t understand.
They state a price fo a ceartain vehicle and you “buy” it. I dont see the leasing thing because you lease over time and have to pay a “rent” to keep it. This is really fucked up and am confused.
Same situation. The “tank” (as a sum of 1′s and 0′s) doesn’t belong to you. You only pay for the game to ALLOW you to play it.
bullshit
hint: search VZVB vs Valve, coupled with July 2012 EU ruling – selling used software is legal, action that trashes whatever bullshit is written in the EULA
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173513/Publishers_cannot_oppose_resale_of_digital_products_says_EU_court.php#.UQqHSmfhJ8E
ones and zeroes .. eh …
1 & 0 is still property
And how is selling a premium tank the same selling used software?
Go sue wg.
Yeah, e-lawyers always make my day, explaining why EULA is a piece of crap and arguing about its conflict with EU legislation.
But biggest fun is to read about actually suing WG, like this for example: http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/130964-musim-sa-vyplakat/page__st__960__pid__5167693#entry5167693
Red army members (who are probably glad they can make it to the toilet on their own) threatening WG with prosecution. Hell yes!
That whole thread is epic, gotta read that…
Silente ty seš fakt čurák
:D
Regarding the big “FUCK YOU”
As a guy who has played many mmorpgs (some casually, others full time job kinda thing) I can say WG has the whole FUCK YOU as their customer support moto.
This is the biggest disappointment when it comes to WoT for me. I’m more of a CCP fanboy and when it comes to customer support CCP delivers/listens!
Yeah EU support “rocks”…
That reminds me when I bought few pieces of boxed version of WoT. On that box was writen that you can use it on ANY game account. And then I found that you can use only 3 on one account. It was written nowhere.
So I crated a ticket, wait half day for answer and got answer “This product is limited to 3 pieces on account” and explanation that it is not a product to fill my account by gold, but that it is like buying new PC game and normal man dont buy many pieces of one game..,
So I wrote them, that there was nowhere written I cant buy 10 pieces of this and use it on one account but a opposite that I can use it on any account.
Next day I received my gold and got extended my premium account but I didnt received other stuff – credits, tanks, garages.
It took me 3-4 days untill i’ve got all I should have…
WG is completely right. You basically accuse them because they don’t have tolerance when it comes to the whining of 12yr old kids. Yes, they could put on fake smiles, but they don’t. I respect them for that.
So WG sold their shells, which they can rebuy instantly. Problem? They want to rebuy them with gold instead of credits. Wow!!
It reminds me of all those people who don’t understand what “online game” means. It means things change. Yes, your X will get nerfed/buffed. Don’t whine just because things change. If you don’t like change, play offline games.
The customer is not always right. Average customer has IQ and manners much worse than that of people in charge of a product. The truth is unpleasant but that’s the truth.
The problem here is the 13y kids who don’t have the brain to think long-sighted. Agree with the low IQ of most players in WoT. That’s sad but the truth.
I even don’t understand why someone with average IQ would still discuss something on the WoT forums (i mean forums in general are totally crap because of retards everywhere). It’s pointless to discuss with idiots. Here’s the point where i understand WG and SerB. The 90% of retarded players / forum posters just make it look like the whole base is retarded. Though SerB and Storm still answer serious, somehow questions with sense still.
There is no solution. It will always stay as it is and i don’t care if WG tells the playerbase “fuckoff” because they deserve it (no manners, retarded, low-IQ, stupid, it’s endless).
I think the person wanted to get his gold because he wanted to do something else with it instead of spending it again on Premium Rounds. Doesn’t change the fact that yes, he’s still stupid for expecting a gold refund.
WG has a nice support, i had a problem a few months ago ( i couldn’t log on test server and i created a new WoT account to see if i can play on test server with that account but i couldn’t ), my premium account expired and i just logged on the site to buy gold in order to extend my premium account, but i bought the gold on the account i made for test server. After 2 emails ( in first i explained what happened and in 2nd i sent all the info they needed) they give me my money back. :)
Tbh I cant see the problem, despite the way the support answered there.
His gold was already spent, he didnt have that gold anymore. He only had the shells left.
Those shells got sold for full price (so if he bought them on discount he got some nice extra cash now), and he can rebuy them with the credits he got from the sale.
He didnt lose anything, as his gold was spent already and the “product” he bought is still available through the credits he got from the automated sale.
yea…I can see it the same way and don’t really get it what all this fuss is about
For the first time WOT Chinese agent KDW is giving out something…
All the gold shells which saw their characteristics changed were reimbursed with gold on the Chinese server, even the shells got from the “luxury segment” (silver -> tokens -> gold shells)
Gold rounds for Credits was the most clever trick that WG did….
Think about it, only people was buying them before the change, was the top clans who was farming the Clan Wars and weren’t paying any cent to get the gold ammo….
Sunday, all the battles that I was in, everybody was shooting gold, E-100 shoots me without aiming (he peek and boo, shot directly no reticule closing noting, a T57 shooting only gold, Centurion penetrating my gun mantlet with E-75, 1750 damage from Tier 10 British TD)…..now if you have to be competitive in WoT you have to shot gold and to finance that you have to buy Premium Account…
Nice job WG, nice thinking….
Previously gold ammo was not bringing any income to WG, Ammo, now everybody has to have premium account…..
Only pitiful part, skill part of the WoT is gone, no weak spot aiming, no angling,
Did you load gold ammo – check
Do you have an auto-loader – check
Faceroll win….
this wot is pay to win
pay= premium account to get credits
win= gold ammo penetrates armor
but but its not pay to win
because i think its not
i go tell you my mommy
Well it all depends on the consumer laws which are valid in whichever State/Country you reside. EULAs in general are invalid in Australia due to governing laws. Of course litigation against a company for $10 would probably cost you $1000 if it weren’t thrown out of court for being vexatious.
What hurts the company is if you stop paying money. Vote with your wallet, easy.
I actually had this same exact discussion in a troll thread regarding this same exact issue.
The problem is that WG didn’t take away the guys gold, they took away his premium ammo and gave him back the silver worth of premium ammo. 1 gold of premium ammo is worth 400 gold of premium ammo, and he can use the silver that was given back to him to simply buy back the premium ammo. In reality the guy lost ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, since he can just buy the gold shells back as if nothing had happened.
The issue then boils down to the fact that WG nerfed HEAT and APCR shells, and whether or not WG has the “right” to do that. If any of these idiots seriously try to sue WG because “WAAHHH MY HEAT SHELLS HAVE 20 LESS PEN!” they’ll get laughed out of court.
Also who the Hell buys ammo with Gold?
The same person who then expects WG to refund them their gold?
Also, “. . . they’ll get laughed out of court. ” Yep. You have agreed to the Terms of Service/End-User License Agreement no less than three times if you play WoT: once when you created your account, once when you installed WoT, and the first time you logged in (and the first time you logged in after EVERY PATCH).
Ahhh so many flame comments…
The real point of this is even the people in charge of things like this dont read those stupid ‘terms and agreements’
why in the world would someone use gold to get premium ammo when it’s available for credits… moreover, if you got the credits back for buying that gold ammo, you can just use those credits you got to buy it back
But that’s common sense, and retards don’t have any common sense.
Sad for Wargaming is that in many countrys the EULA is not legally valid because simply clicking “i agree” is not the same thing as a contract..
You’re from zimbabwe?
So wgs own cs personnel can’t be bothered to read the EULA? What a shit dev. They just milk their consumers as much as possible before they reach their “fuck it” point. We’ll see if their tune changes when war thunder gets its ground forces rolling. It already killed wowp after all.
So…
We lease gold shells – well I suppose that will explain the disappearing or ghost shell phenomenon, as in – you aim and fire, the shell leaves the barrel. But, before it hits the target your lease expires!?
ROFL – WG, does it again!
I guess, that first this guy got “advice” from support that he can go complain on forums – i got similar one, which i had sent you on email, SS. I didn’t bother starting a whine in public, though, because rest of support answers were a big FU too, mixed with non-consistent arguments. That’s WG for you…
I just read about gold prices going down today in CNNMoney, is this true?