Extending the WOT german tech tree – Henschel Heavy Tanks

By Zarax


This is a purely speculative article that takes into account WOT German tech tree and uses historical tanks to speculate possible new tank additions.

While trying to keep the articles faithful to history some room for inaccuracy is allowed within these rules:

1) No tank or tank part will be 100% made up, at least a mention about tank role and vague specs are needed

2) Components not planned for the tank are allowed, provided it wouldn’t create grotesque inaccuracies like putting a gun that would obviously cripple a tank under its weight

3) This will be limited to WWII plans, anything post war risks to be too arbitrary to properly balance

No serious expectation of anything listed to appear in WOT as described is applied, but as we’re discussing about implementing history into an arcade game some items will be controversial.
This is unavoidable as WOT tech tree rules need a tank to be better than the previous one and ergonomics are not exactly cared about, meaning that most designs are over-performing their real counterparts.

After the recent general german tank rebalance made by WG which left some players rather disappointed, I think it’s a good time to look at historical developments and how they could fit in WOT.
As the Henschel line is slightly better researched this will be more of a rebalance and less of a revolution than the Porsche rebalance proposal, although again the focus will be on bringing better armor for tier, although I’m sure the proposed changes will stir controversy as they touch many community favourites.
The historical sources as usual are Spielberger, Jentz & Doyle with a few lines from Hahn.

Henschel heavy tank development can be traced back to January 1937, when Wa Pruef 6 asked Henschel to develop designs for a 30 ton tank armed with a 7,5cm cannon.
Although not the first development for an heavier design (Großtraktor and Neubaufahrzeug were produced in early 1930s but could be regarded more as parade tanks than battlefield ready designs), Henschel focused on the breakthrough tank role, with focus on all-around armor and guns intended to deal with machine gun nests and small fortifications rather than tank to tank combat, although the experience of France first and Russia later on radically changed this.

Tier III:  Durchbruchswagen

 Seen by many players as a rather mediocre tier IV tank, D.W. II would greatly benefit from being brought down a tier.
Facing tier II-V enemies would mean having an armor nearly immune to auto-cannon fire and pretty effective versus most guns of the same tier with angling.
Removing the top 5cm, toning down HP and ROF would make the tank a pretty good defensive machine without becoming overkill.

 A tank to be feared in its own tier, it would suffer against tank destroyers and 50mm aren’t anything special versus tiers above, let alone if facing tier V tanks.
All in all, it would be a slightly better AMX 38 with similar armor, slightly better guns and similar mobility.

 Tier IV:  VK 30.01 (H)

Under-armored and over-gunned at tier V, let alone tier VI where it was placed earlier, VK 30.01 (H) would be a lot more balanced at tier IV.
Sporting the same armor as the previous tier, protection would be rather mediocre for an heavy tank and at roughly the same level as Panzer III, but this would be compensated by fairly good mobility (for an heavy tank) and either the 75mm L/43 or L/48 as top gun. Historically longer guns were considered but the required turret redesign basically meant the tank itself was discarded as becoming inadequate.

Most soft stats could be picked from the current tier IV DW (after all the two tanks were very close relatives) although the improved firepower would mean no preferential match-making.
Strong against the same tier but also only moderately well-protected, it would set the tune for the rest of the line.

 Tier V:  VK 36.01 (H)

Although pretty balanced as tier VI heavy, the VK 36.01 (H) is yet another over-gunned design as historically it was unable to carry the 88mm cannon.

At tier V it would bring great armor for its tier (on par with the feared KV), still excellent firepower as the current VK 30.01 (H) gun selection plus were its historical guns.
Mobility-wise we could expect similar performance as the KV tank (which isn’t too bad for an heavy) to which it would be an excellent counterpart, with less damaging guns but better penetration and better frontal armor but worse sides.

All in all, it would be a good breakthrough tank, able to take some punishment to the front but also punishing for reckless players as mediums of the same tier would easily exploit the weak sides.

Tier VI:  Tiger (H)

Great gun, good mobility but paper armor was pretty much the Tiger’s description.In recent patches this has been brought to the extremes, to the point that the tank resembles very little its historical counterpart except in looks.
Bringing down the tank to tier VI could give armor that lower tiers would find difficult to penetrate with a bit of angling, while HP and soft stats would suffer.

 While keeping the current top gun would be somewhat historically accurate, I’m not sure it would be a good idea.
Being able to mount the long 88 means sacrificing a lot in other places, leading to a play style not unlike the french ARL 44, which is not exactly regarded as a great tank, although personally I find it adequate.
As alternative, Rheinmetall’s improved 88mm L/56 prototype could also be brought to play, giving +10/15mm penetration over the standard short 88 and allowing decent soft stats so that brawling as top tier wouldn’t be a suicidal option.

 After tier VI, two options are available, one following closely battlefield specs, with another being closer to the current WOT.
Let’s review them both, starting with the more extreme variant:

 Tier VII:  Tiger II 

 While Tiger II is currently regarded as well balanced at tier VIII, it doesn’t mean it couldn’t work one tier down.
Lower front plate is now weaker than it used to be and engine power toned down, so that the tank works best in a partial hull-down position and on flat terrain.
At the same time, what we have in game is Krupp’s Tiger II rejected proposal, adding yet again a gun that would barely fit and that would have had an horrid reload time historically.

 Using the 88mm L/71 as top gun and reducing mobility (Tiger II never was an agile beast anyway) with a somewhat lower DPM we could have a tier VII with great armor and gun, able to troll lower tiers and stand up to quite a bit of punishment although lacking the agility to be a true brawler.

Tier VIII: E-75

As strange as it may seem, we have no data on planned armor thickness for E-50 and E-75 other than one had stronger armor than the other.
This, connected to the fact the design was never planned to use anything larger than the 10.5cm L/68, would make the tank rather underpowered at tier IX but very possible to be balanced at tier VIII.

The main complaint in WOT would be that the tank is too well protected for tier VIII, and it would be true keeping the current armor. At the same time, that layout is not very realistic for a 75 ton tank.

IMHO armor would have been only marginally better than Tiger II (I’d say 150mm UFP, 120mm LFP, 100mm sides) and most weight would have gone into a larger turret, able to properly house the 10.5cm L/68 and a 2nd loader. A 5 tons margin is not that much considering this factor, even with the promised lighter suspension and optimized layout within the E-series.

Mobility wise we could expect slightly worse than Tiger II (same engines, 5 more tons) in HP/ton ratio, terrain resistance depends on WG as usual.

 Tier IX: VK 130.01(K)Tiger-Maus


The mighty E-100 was born initially as a Krupp project for a cheaper Maus using production components from the Tiger and Tiger II.
The first draft called for a prototype using an early Maus turret design and either a MB HL230 design or an optimized version boosted to 1000HP using high octane fuel.

Luckily we also have the turret design available:

Trouble is that it was quite a bit heavier than E-100 turret, pushing the total weight nearly 150 tons.
Even with a 1000HP engine we can expect Maus-like mobility but great armor and good firepower at tier IX.

On the guns side, we could expect the 10,5cm L/68 stock and a choice between Maus 12.8cm L/55 and likely the upcoming 150mm FH L/29,5 from the TD line, although it will likely not have better penetration than the 10,5cm.

This concludes the “radical” variant.
The other option involves leaving alone tier VIII and IX, while introducing a new tank at tier VII.

Tier VII:  VK 45.02/45.03 (H)

 The “demi Tiger II” was initally called Tiger II in itself, while the production Tiger II was the “Tiger III” project.
The initial plans for an improved Tiger called for a sloped armor version of VK 45.01 using essentially the same components and the 88mm L/71, with a frontal armor rated either 100 or 120mm and 80mm sides.

The project in itself was rather short lived as it was ultimately decided to uniform production as much as possible with Panther components, leading to the “Tiger III” project which ended up in the Tiger B we all know.

Performance wise we could expect a tank slightly lighter than a Tiger II using the same engines as Tiger I, so not stellar mobility, balanced by slightly better frontal armor (imagine ARL44 hull with Tiger turret) and the Porsche Tiger II turret as top.

Tier X: E-100

No introduction is really needed, E-100 is unlikely to change much.
Possible buffs are covered in the “Buff my tank! – E-100″ article.

I’m sure this article will raise controversy but given the constant WOT rebalancing I wouldn’t consider it completely impossible.

Hope you enjoyed reading this article and I will see you in the next one!



About Zarax

Wot: Zarax999 (EU Server)

185 thoughts on “Extending the WOT german tech tree – Henschel Heavy Tanks

  1. Well, at least it answers what every other suggestion to downtier the Tiger can’t, what to fill the gap with?(VK 130.01K)

  2. It would make sense the way you put them here, but, I feel it would give them a wrong feel. I mean, the Tiger was the heavy counterpart of the IS and the IS3 the counterpart of the Tiger II, so, despite it fitting better historically one tier lower, it would feel awkward. Not to mention the wehraboo buthurt that would come out of the mere suggestion that the Tiger is beneath the IS…

    • Actually if you look at production years and performance Tiger would be inferior to IS in most aspects, what we have in WOT is a paper project that would have had a pretty similar ROF with a smaller gun.

      • Tiger in its historical configuration (short 88 mm, ~130 penetration) would be nice match to KV-85 (85 mm, ~120 pen) or IS-1 with same gun. Of course that would mean total rebalancing of tier 6. (Like Hellcat with its historical 76 mm M1A2).

        • KV-85 was made to match the battlefield performance of the Tiger and was pretty comparable to it.
          Both could destroy each other at mid to close range and were pretty though nuts to crack.

          • they thought so, but it didn´t match the tiger so they stoped production after a while besides the production problems from the very start.
            Because unlike the KW 85 the tiger could knock it out already on 2000m which is more than double the KW 85 range to destroy an tiger.

            • Hitting shit at two kilometers out was a bit of a “long shot” in the original meaning of the expression, though. I understand realistic battle ranges were usually under a kilometer.

              More practically since the 85mm could be fitted into the T-34 too and the all-around better IS approaching production readiness a KV-85 oughta seemed a mite redundant if not outright pointless.

    • I’m rather certain most players that like german tanks and have atleast a few braincells would agree with dropping the Tiger by a tier, as it predates the IS and T29 and is a rather inferior stopgap either way.

      OTH, the tigerboos that still think of the Tiger as a miracle machine deserve nothing but ridicule, amply served by SerB.

      • The tiger is slightly worse than the T29 but overall it’s way better than the shitty T7s the Russians get

        • T29 is borderline OP. SUPERIOR COMFORT ftw. The Soviet T7s aren’t too shabby IMO but not half as crazy as Mr. Nuclear Bunker Turret, and I’m not qualified to comment on the Germans.

          • IS is one of my best peforming tanks… Like the T29 it’s seriously overpowered compared to tanks like the Tiger or Black Prince.

        • How can you call the IS shit? it is pretty much close to being op, not on a T29 level but 2nd best tier 7 heavy for sure, that agility and firepower i´ll deal 1600 dmg average per game thats almost tier 8 level tank worthy if it would have let´s say 200-300 more health points, even the gun is quite accurate despite the numbers are bad it feels much better anyway.

          • 1.6k average damage , wow must be a real OP tank!
            on a more serious note:
            why do most people that claim to have such and such stats not the balls to claim such things under their ingame name?
            PS: when writing comment (atleast on pc that is) you can simple type your name in the name line, no registration needed!
            mfg eXterminus

  3. “Possible buffs are covered in the “Buff my tank! – E-100″ article.”

    Could you provide a link to this please :)

  4. E75 at tier 8? Ahahahaha.
    And putting another huge tank (E100 size) on tier 9? Seriously? isn’t enough that germans have 2 huge metal chuncks? We really need another one?
    Also Tiger2 with the current armor at tier 7?
    Seriously, no offence but this article seems to be posted here only because there wasn’t anything better to post…

    • Like I said, the article is controversial and not a realistic expectation for WOT.
      If you take stock Tiger II it would fit tier VII as well as the current Tiger.

      • Tiger 2 has the same hull armor as E50M.
        Putting this thing at tier 7 would create the most op tank ever.

        Also, why would you even think about destroying the E75? It’s amazing as it is. Don’t even think about touching it.

        Remember the Pz4 case? People were complaining about the vader turret and WG removed it. Where is my beloved panzer 4? It’s gone because some people don’t even know what they are asking for.

        I have nothing against changing the lower tiers, but the Tigers+E75 should stay as they are right now. The other suggestion for tier 7 and the tier 9 monster could be premium tanks/clan wars rewards/optional tanks (like the ferdinand)

        • I agree. I have no idea where are these E75-to-drop-a-tier people coming from lately. Its perfectly fine where it is.

            • So we better nerf it down and destroy one of the best tanks in-game? Oh, and please correct me, but in reality there wasn’t any T28, or T28 prototype, or any of the E series, or those russian artys, or lots of other tanks.
              It’s a game, there is something called ballance. Don’t mess with that please.

              Oh, and you’re just assuming that E75 wouldn’t have so much armor, you don’t have any sources to prove it. After all E75, E50, E100, and those other tanks you mentioned in your post are all just blueprints. Fiction.

              Don’t ask for historical accuracy if you suggest implementing blueprint tanks.

              Also :”E-75 never had a 128mm cannon ” There wasn’t even a single E75 built, how can you know if the E75 had or not a 128mm cannon? From blueprints only? Yeah… Asking for historical accuracy only when it benefits you.

            • who cares about history? we want a tank that is fun to play and ballanced. not a tank that is historical accurate and not fun to play. touching good veheicles is ALWAYS a bad idea. I also do hope that they will never find a replacement for the T9 VK or that they unify e50 and e50m. the tanks are fun the way they are now, there is no point in changing anything about them. Its not a simulator – otherwise add all parties to the battlefield, i.e., add aircrafts, ships, infantery, mines, spys, corruption battles where you play 5 t5 tanks vs 25t5 tanks and other historical accurate shit. Tiger is unmobile for you? you should have tryed lion before the speedbuff in last patch. Furthermore, in a historical accurate game increase the accuracy, range and penetration of all tanks for about 100% and modify the damage calculation. shoting 5 times the coupla deals exactly like 0 dmg as it cant break again after its broken with a single ap shell. it would be interisting how much shots a tank actually need to destroy another one, so some real data would be fine too. same goes for accuracy: the aiming circle is way to big when moving, it should be always same sized: Have fun vs arty!

            • @ cimajes:

              Ever heard of blueprints or even engineering common sense?
              To house a 128mm L/55 you needed either a big casemate (and as E-75 hull is approximately the same a the Tiger II in size we know it would have been needed) or a super-heavy tank size turret, not even Krupp in their most daring moods (and we’re talking about the ones that wanted to fit a 105mm L/52 in a VK 3001P turret) tried to put that gun in a smaller turret.

            • There are too many “if” for my tastes.
              Okay, so you say that a 128mm gun couldn’t fit. Well then what’s stopping WG from creating a 105mm gun that does 500 damage with 240pen? Nothing, because it’s called balance.

              Also it’s a game, if you want 100% accuracy then please make your own game.

              If you care so much about historical accuracy then why don’t you fight for the historical IS7? Or the historical T57 heavy?

              @Kellomies a hull it’s not comparable to a entire tank.

            • Oughta be enough to have a good idea about how thick the armour was, at least. Which was sort of the point and rather contrary to what you claimed.

            • @cimajes “So we better nerf it down and destroy one of the best tanks in-game?”
              who says tiger2 @ tier7 and e-75 @ tier8 wont be two of the best tanks ingame, aswell? not to mention a tiger at tier1 which is quite underarmoured for t7….

  5. I call the “radical” version bullshit. Moar “uber armor with huge weakspot and no decent firepower” designs for Krauts? No, thanks!

    E-75 should stay at tier IX as it is, as well as KT on tier VIII.

    • In case you haven’t noticed, for every tier firepower stays unchanged, mobility is reduced and armor is increased.

  6. The vk30 and 36 pictures are swapped, there’s a vk36 schematic under vk30 entry and vice versa…

      • I just managed to bring Tiger into its true historical self, and Zarax wants to completely throw that out the window. Putting it down a tier means nerfing it to the point that Tiger would resemble very little its historical counterpart except in looks.

        Basically, Zarax is incorrect in his initial assertion.

        • Tiger was armed with an 88mm L/56, the design with the long 88 was discarded because it would have turned the tank into a lame duck.
          Putting the tank down a tier means having a balanced tank versus its historical enemies rather than a turreted TD in all but name.

          • L/71 was discarded for Tiger because the development of Tiger II meant L/71 was more needed to be used for the new panzer. It was not a problem of Tiger becoming a lame duck.

            Furthermore, the Tiger was an actual turreted TD in its usage, with breakthroughs achieved by engaging in long range shootouts. Only retards like Wittmann would to charging into enemy fire with it.

            Finely, I hate the stupid excuse of “historical” enemies. Tiger already faces enough of those enemies when it is top tier, and if one does not like it, terrible for them. They might as well let KV-5 go down two tiers to face its “historical” enemies.

            • Yes, because the historical Tiger and Tiger II fired as fast a Sherman, right?
              The L/71 Tiger remained a proposal because it was difficult to fit the cannon into that turret ring.
              It’s not the first Krupp proposal that was turned down because its application had its own drawbacks, you know.
              Porsche tried and failed, there is a reason to why all VK 45.02 proposal turrets had an elongated shape.

              But hey, let’s keep buffing unrealistically a tank to be on par with others that outclassed it historically.

            • Ok, this is more informative than many other posts, I sure am glad that I did ask. Also, how would the Tiger differ if it were tier 6? Short 88 with a balanced RoF, but other than that, engine and maneuverability would stay the same, right?

            • Yes, rate of fire was up to 8 rpm for Tiger.

              L/71 Tiger went as far as testing. The conversion was deemed not worth it due to what I mentioned.

              Tiger right now is as historical as it can get, right down to the turret traverse.

            • @ Torx:
              gun selection would be either the same as VK 36.01 (H) or with the addition of Rheinmetall 8.8cm L/56 prototype that fired fatter cartridges at 100ms more muzzle velocity, so slightly higher penetration.

              Engine would stay the same, mobility depends on balance.

            • I forgot which book, but Jentz said rate of fire for KwK 36 to be 6 rpm on the battlefield. This easily translates into 8 rpm in a more calm condition, which is what WG bases its rate of fire on (aside from balancing issues).

            • >Furthermore, the Tiger was an actual turreted TD in its usage, with breakthroughs achieved by engaging in long range shootouts. Only retards like Wittmann would to charging into enemy fire with it.
              A ‘TD’ which was still noted for its armor when first introduced, I’ll have you remember. Secondly, that breakthrough you speak of sounds oddly familiar to how the Tiger P plays.

              >Finely, I hate the stupid excuse of “historical” enemies. Tiger already faces enough of those enemies when it is top tier, and if one does not like it, terrible for them. They might as well let KV-5 go down two tiers to face its “historical” enemies.
              Yet the Tiger is much more doable than the KV-5. One argument doesn’t make the point, but the tiger has many arguments for being placed at tier VI, including this one. The vehicle plays second fiddle to the Tiger P, and to any other Tier 7 on the field. The IS (and any tank with the D-25T) eats their health, the SU-152 nukes it, the T29 is an incredible hulldown monster, the Tiger P plays a much better breakthrough, CAN support with the exact same turret, gun, can face the T29, and can actually hold its own in a tier 9 fight. This is a Tiger I with poorer camouflage than most Soviet SPGs AND the Ferdinand, to say the least of vehicles that have speed like the Jagdpanther (which also has the L/71) or the Hellcat , DOESN’T get comparable armor to the steel wall TDs, and supports a perfectly good gun that’s already in the German heavy and TD line Tier 7 onwards.

              If the Tiger could seriously keep up with cousin Tiger P, even with the better ROF, and speed, I could accept it as a tier 7. But even Wargaming agreed the Tiger H needed buffs like a major ROF increase, an aimtime buff, a mantlet redesign, a weight reduction, and additional health. Compare this to the Tiger P, whose sole change is a viewrange buff as far as I can tell. Even noobmeter’s metrics place it at the bottom of the WR list, right next to the M4 45. Maybe 8.8 is all it needs, but if not, dropping it down a tier seems like a reasonable decision and an opportunity to put an otherwise maligned gun to good use. Or removing the heavy MM weighting.

            • Breakthrough, a frontal attack against a deliberate defense, is achieved by shock and speed, and long range engagement can achieve niether and is generally more favorable to defenders EVEN when outgunned.

              To achieve breakthrough, you don’t want to give enemy time to recover from preparatory arty barrage, call up the reserves, and walk their own spoiling barrage unto your “sniping” force.

              So what do you do? you get your thick-skinned, purpose-built heavy tanks up there, in a line, advancing with infantry, firing in short halt, get close and personal, until you roll enemy trenchlines over.

              Germans knew it, Soviets knew it, battle records and memoirs reflect this.
              The reason why Tiger was used as turreted TD is because there wasn’t many breakthrough jobs it can apply to. Soviet armor column pore a hole in the line? call that heavy panzer btn playing in the neighborhood, have them pop some T-34s and shore up the line!
              But the fact remains that doctrinally, Tigers were expected to withstand defensive fire and faceroll the enemy, with emphasis on HE strength to blow bunkers and entrenchments, hence choice of 88mm over better penning 75mm. Its intended role was not glorified resource glut TD it became.

        • Daigensui, why do you think a Tiger at tier 6 couldn’t be more historical?
          And yes, even if a l/71 tiger was a real possibility, the fact that tigers did use the l/56 would make a t6 l/56 tiger more historical, wouldn’t it…

          • What they are both looking for is rational options to the L\56 that could be added into the tiger tech tree and still keep it, roughly, historical but blatantly unhistorical. Its a thin line.
            Right now they are note hunting for the original paperwork.

            • Well, I base myself on Spielberger, Jentz & Doyle, unfortunately I cannot afford to search in the original documents.

            • 800hp tiger at tier 6 ?
              Yes I support this so that the tiger can be 2 shotted by IS tanks as was “historical” . :troll:

            • Or just the gun. Give that thing 800 hitpoints, give it the 88 KwK 36 L/56, give it the VK 36.01′s reload of 8.11 shots a minute (7.3 seconds). It’ll destroy M4 Shermans, M4A3E8 Shermans, T-34s, and will have to contend with the KV-1S, the SU-100s and need to worry about fast firing artillery. Even a smart Matilda with the top gun would make an unwary Tiger I Commander not bothering to angle his box miss about 240 health in the span of a reload. Even the KV-2 has 110 penetration on that Godlike 152mm , he’s guaranteed to eat 400+ health of any Tiger I if he gets a hit on the front plate.

            • 800hp tiger at tier 6 ?
              Yes I support this so that the tiger can be 2 shotted by IS tanks as was “historical” . :troll:

            • Admittedly i haven’t read any books about it, and it’s been some time until i read the wiki articles, but having just checked again, the german wikipedia actually lists mobility more as a weak point.
              But no, of course the mobility should be kept historical aswell. So you argue it would be OP with the historical mobility at tier 6? why? Isn’t it more or less just a bigger vk36.01 with 20mm more side armor?
              And at least the old “medium” vk did have better mobility aswell, didn’t it, although that maybe was a bit too strong.

              Somewhat annoying might be the rather low penetration of the l56 gun, but it’s been a while since i last used it.

            • From what I’ve read the Tiger had few issues with *tactical* mobility, and the drivetrain was pretty robust for the day and the size of the vehicle. It was *strategic* mobility that was problematic, hardly an uncommon snag for large tanks.

    • Mostly agree with Daigensui. It is mean they must change the whole tier for the German tree. Why? We look example like Jagdpanther use 8.8 cm Pak 43 L/71 same with Ferdinand and Panther doesn’t have L/100 that will cause dropping them to another tier or all entire nation tree must be reworked and problem solve. But I would like to say NO AND NEVER.

      • yep, there’s lots that can be done!
        Maybe could be for wot 2.0 where they want to rebalance for larger maps anyway i think.

          • that depends on the distance of combat.
            but nobody was claiming anyway that they would do so, i just said they might rebalance everything for larger maps and 30v30 or bigger battles, one thing being accuracy which in the game is worse than historically.

  7. The less radical variant is what I would have proposed (after hearing about the VK 45.03(H) from Daigensui, she wanted it as a preferential MM tier VIII prem though).

    ~40% more frontal hull armour than the current Tiger I, 1 degree more depression at the cost of slightly worse mobility and turret armour (Tiger I turret stock, early KT turret elite).

    • As usual when I propose huge changes I offer a choice.
      VK 45.02/45.03 would be a much gentler way to change the tree, especially as many are afraid of rebalances.

      • That was my thought as well, the frontally well-armoured 45.03 (H) makes much more sense in terms of gameplay than a paper box armed with overbuffed firepower.

      • Well, we had a free Lion, Pasholok decided to turn it into a tier X, despite being warned that he was looking at the wrong tank.

        I seriously hope you had nothing to do with VK7201.

        • I don’t, since that was before I became involved with WG. I am still working on a Krupp line with attempts to get more information from Mr. Doyle.

      • Ah, I was worried when you were proposing a heavy with worse frontal armour than many tier VIII meds and mediocre firepower. Tier VII prem was also something I would have proposed if WG weren’t going to shuffle the branch about.

        Are you referring to a GIMME A KRUPP BRANCH NAO with “free up the Lion”?

          • Any Krupp line would have ended with Tiger-Maus or Maus as tier X, the former is not exactly on par with tier X standard.

            • Depending on how you work soft stats, you have the tiger-maus, maus, maus ii, e-100, and mammut to fit around tiers ix and x. It could be done a lot of different ways

  8. Yeah, I can’t rape the whole enemy team alon in an E-75 so we need an E-100 on t9 with a 750 alpha gun.

    German drivers…

      • I think you should check baine’s youtube video about t95. And that doesn’t even have a turret…

        Sure, you might reach the enemy base only at 10km/h but you WILL reach it. Or you just stand in your own base and noone can cap you.

        Seriously it’s just another ‘germans are big and bad, hurr, durr, they shouldn’t be penned and oneshot everything’ childish post. Why is it always the german drives who have roughly 0 sense about gameplay balance and perspective?

      • Yes because tank with terribad mobility and giant ass box shape on T9 is exactly what people wants!

      • I’ve watched a lone T95 (my brother had one) do terrible things to enemy teams in a final “last stand” and mostly be brought down by detracking and the resultant inability to shoot back, plus the thing has weakspots galore. The E-100 conversely has pretty solid protection all around and a turret.
        Let’s just say the math looks kinda bad for balance.

    • Excuse me, but the T95 has 305 raw mm of armor with weakpoints the size of peanuts like the front profile of every other tank at tiers 9-10. The Tiger I itself has just 100 mm of armor on the front AND that flammable transmission – Tier 5 shermans shooting head on will penetrate with the M1A1, any tier 5 TD will penetrate, even 110 penetration guns on things like the EU 57 and the Pz IV are on the cusp of reliably penetrating straight on.

      And this thing will be meeting tier 6s regularly with its heavy matchmaking. The SU-100 alone has 175 mm of penetration on tap. The VK3002 MAN? 150 Penetration.

      I just do not see this thing pulling a T95 without appropriate skill, just like the KV-1; in fact, I think this would be a great rebalance to spice up the tier 6 scene because the Tiger H is currently playing a major second fiddle to the Tiger P in every single way despite the ridiculously optimistic maneuverability.

      On a side note, I also feel the Panther I should be rebalanced to Tier 6, but… well the 3002 MAN protoype already hit, so that proposal’s moot when you’ve got a panther with the classic gun running around like the second coming of the VK 36.01. I’m fine with that.

  9. Tiger and Tiger2 is fine at their current tiers, especially after the rebalance in 8.8.
    Both tanks can put out more damage than ever, both got a nice mobility buff, and some extra armor.
    Lower plate nerf had zero effect on the Tiger2.

    • Really my black prince penetrates Tiger 2 lower hull with every shot before it bounced all shots. In 8.7 it was pretty immune to 175mm penetration gun now it should be immune to 150mm penetration guns.

    • IMO the Tiger changes were overall buffs. From what I’ve heard, it’s only a tad sluggish so the higher top speed compensates, and on top of that, it’s got small buffs to HP/depression/aim time and ridiculously high DPM.

      But the KT? If my experiences with the post-8.8 JT are any indication, it now accelerates and turns like a brick and reaches a significantly higher speed than before once in a blue moon. And the LFP is hit way more often than the cupola or MG port, so losing nealy 30mm of LFP armour is a huge nerf.

      • Tiger2 is now a pretty mobile tank compared to 8.7, can keep up much more nicely with IS3, except when climbing. Upper hull and turret bounces more which is an OK trade for a weaker lower plate… All is fine with this tank, and Tiger H is a bit OP now, IMO.

        But maybe my nearly 900 battles in Tiger2 is clouding my judgement. ;-))

  10. i dont see it…
    t4 heavy has easier mm than mids, because the b1 and the dw2 are both undergunned, placing the vk3001 with a 75l43 will make it op, since can face t4-5 easy, now the vk3001 is a nice sniper like the old pz4s was(is not a true heavy like the pz4 wasnt a true mid)

    vk3601 is fine as t6 in terms of armor and guns(i dont see the point of using the 88 over the konisch), one tier lower would unbalance it a lot(vk36 at t5 is mostly gunproof)

    tiger h, yes it sucks, we know, the gun isnt the historical and the armor is not enough, maybe making a prem stock tiger would be nice for t6 with the stock stats of the vk3601.

    tiger 2, his front armor is great for a t8, frontally is inmune to d25t and other sub 200 pen guns.

    e75 even better armored than tiger 2, again op for a t8.

    the tiger maus could fit, since isnt better armored than the actual e75.

    most tanks of the line would be over armored and upgunned, to balance them they should kill their agility completely, and i think that wouldnt be enjoyable, and even them most of them would still be op.

  11. I like the idea of Tiger losing the L/71 and being a T6, I also thought about it once :)

    It is kinda weird/sad when historical/iconic tanks are only played (ie. elite) in unhistorical setups (guns mostly) – Tiger, KT, Panther, (previously PzIV)…

    However, while I would surely like to see KT with L/71 as the top gun, it would be maybe a bit too much on T7, while the current L/71 won’t cut it as the best german gun on T8.

    What about buffing the damage? That’s a balancing parameter. Make it 300 dam, adjust the RoF/DPM. Sure, it would make the KT lean more towards the sniper/support heavy, which I don’t like that much (Caernarvorn springs to mind).

    Maybe it could work, who knows :)

    The T7 “proto-KT” would need to be adjusted gun-wise too (maybe the “regular-dam” L/71 of some sort…), but could work.

    Thoughts? :)

    • damage is value calculated from guns caliber, it is round surface x4, but it does not work for 7,5cm guns – they have lowered damage from 175 to 135.

    • damage is value calculated from guns caliber, for most guns it is round surface x4, but it does not work for 7,5cm guns – they have lowered damage from 175 to 135.

      • …what? First off your math blows (how in the world you managed to peg 175 as a whole-number multiplication of 75 I have no idea) and has jack all to do with the in-game numbers, and secondly insofar the damage reflects approximate shell power as opposed to plain arbitrary balancing you’d expect it to go up somewhat exponentially relative to diameter on account of volume ergo mass (and bursting-charge size in the case of the rather common APHE shells) increasing something like third power anyway…

        • Ikr it’s not like the tier 8 100 mm guns get 250 (formerly 230) and the tier 9 and tier 10 get 320 . And the 105 gets a whopping 390 same as the tier 7-8 122 gun s.
          It’s just a balance parameter

          • The 100mm’s used to lose out to both the German 88′s and US 90mm’s in terms of raw damage. Somehow I only noticed that bit of WTFness like a week before the newest patch, but it’s not like they beat them by an enormous margin now either.

  12. e100 on tier IX would be similiar in gameplay to T30 – same alpha, better amour, less pen, but no need to spam gold. i think both proposals are great, but with radical one german armour would become a bit op from tier 7 upwards, especially with removed machinegun and cupola weakspots. i heard e75 had same sides thickness as tiger 2, but got buff for IX tier. with mobility nerf it should work well. lower tier changes are must have! i cant look at current paper heavies and vk with irl impossible to mount 88. 45.02/03 for VII tier definitely!

  13. This pretty much shows soviet mid tiers are all one tier above by performance. Vk36 would be perfect counterpart to KV-1 and Vk3001H would be just fine at t4. On the other hand we have kv1s that is basically T7 with less HP. KV-3 used to be OP t6 until they finally moved it to t7 where it belongs. They overperform in their tier by much.

  14. Tiger is tiered with tanks that came well after it did. Just Soviet bias and idiot fanboys who don’t know what the tank really did.

    • Ah the german fanboy shows up .
      The tiger tank “did” was to diverted resources from the manufacture of tanks that were actually good .
      (Yes I am a stug fanboy )

  15. Just to confirm what the dicslaimer suggests – this article (and the Porshe counterpart) are showing how a historical tree could be built in WoT – it’s not a suggestion to change the trees in a such a way?

    • It is a speculation on how a tree much closer to history would look like, I am in no position to impose my view to WG, especially when the ones with any influence have opposed points of view.

  16. Keep E-75 tier9, Tiger2 tier 8 and put Tiger2 proto on tier 7? Dont think they’ll ever move E-75 to tier8 because of E-50..

    Im all for a Tier6 Tiger H, even when I play tier 5 its a 1.5k hp box of credits, exp & effi and Im always happy to see some on the enemy team.
    Just look how “right” “Panther” feels on tier6 (vk3002m, which imo feels more historical than elited tier7 panther), its even usable in companies in small amounts. :P

    • E-50 is also very likely to be over-armored but touching that will open a can of worms even bigger than this one (and the game needs balance), I won’t comment any further.

  17. Is there a source to VK 130.01 (K)?
    I am interested in it and wanted to find more material about it.

  18. The radical proposal just makes it Armoured: the Monstering.

    Too radical, the 3601 in 8.8 is already too radical. This would completely change the playstyle of the line. No thanks.

  19. WG could also increase the penetration for german guns since they used penetration values on flat surfaces for all russian and US guns but 30 degree pen. values for german guns which decreased the penetration value of german guns by around 20%. for example the IS gun 122 D-25t would have 140mm of penetration on 30 degree, on flat that is 175mm just like ingame. the Panther, Tiger I and Tiger II could have the 75/L70 with 173mm, 88/L56 with 150mm and the 88/L71 with 250mm pen value on flat surface . same for all the other guns which are underperforming.
    Nice read btw, Zarax.

    • By what criteria the 75L70 is “underperforming” I have no idea, but I suspect PEBKAC is involved.

          • I am always dead serious. Obviously. I also happen to realise 150 pen is none too shabby for a T7 med, given that there’s like four that get anything better (and Panther is one).

            …okay, that’s 4 out of 8 but anyway. >_>

      • WoT’s values have nothing to do with historical performance, penetration progression of 100 mm BR-412 (175), BR-412B (219) and BR-412D (201) ammo and ANY 120+ gun penetration are proof of that.

  20. Sums up what I have been thinking for quite some time.
    Tiger on tier 6 and King Tiger on tier 7, with historical guns (they already got historical engines and armor), would be pretty balanced – if you cant penetrate any of them with current tier 6 and 7 heavy tanks, you are doing it wrong.

    But as recent VK3002 M medium shows, WG will never do anything like that; they simply prefer imaginary modules (guns) when it suits them, while calling on “historical accuracy” when it doesnt.
    That same VK3002M is exactly what Panther should have been ages ago, both by year it was built, tanks it encountered and gun it really had.
    Instead we got a true Panther (prototype with wrong name and less frontal armor) on tier 6, and horribly looking Darth Vader Pinokio on tier 7.

    Dat logic.

    • TBH it would have been very hard to find a different balance for german medium tanks, if you put Panther at tier VI, what do you place at tier VII?

      • Glad you asked, but take this only as my POV :)

        Tier 6:
        (Panzerkampfwagen V) Panther, including all variants A/D/G.
        -stock gun same as on VK3002M
        -stock turret with rounded mantlet with shot trap area (as it actually works in WoT, it would be a nice weakspot for those who know how to exploit it).
        - elite gun L70 with similar RoF as on VK3002M
        - elite turret with flat chin and more armor on that spot (it would actually make a decent hull down medium).
        Soft stats and engine power remain the same.

        Tier 7:
        Panther Ausf.F
        - stock turret from Panther G and L70
        - stock gun with RoF same as on previous Panther
        - elite turret SchmalTurm with less weight (atm, its heavier…) with the choice of either L56 or L70 with increased RoF around 16, having same DPM as Comet.

        Tier 8:
        Panther 2 with 900 HP engine or proposed gas turbine and L71, pretty much like it is now, but with engines it really needs to stay competitive on tier 8.

        As you can see, it would be as historically accurate and plausible as possible.
        No fiction modules, prototypes or made up stuff.
        I know that I may be subjective on this matter, since those tanks are one I played the most, but it would bring 1st and original German medium line into a logical continuation.

      • You could move the panther II down a tier with the 75mm L/100, and VK3002M would probably work out alright at tier 5, with the gun it has now, just with a much lower rof. It would be similar to the pre-nerf pz. IV, but with fewer hit points and worse armor (well, relatively worse, it does have that slope, and that mantlet). I suppose if it becomes a problem they could just get rid of it, I mean, if they made the Panther into The Panther, then we wouldn’t really need the prototype anymore, the prototype turret would become stock for the panther and it’s current stock turret would be the upgraded one, thus eliminating the schmalturm from yet another tank it doesn’t need to be on.

        With the panther II down a tier that would make a lot of people happy, as we would finally have a decent tier VII med that would actually be worth keeping, and the panther I wouldn’t have the comedy stick anymore (YAY!!!!!), as we could just pawn that thing off onto the panther II. Then all we’d need is something new at tier VIII, that or move the E-50′s down and put something new in at tier X.

        Or, I suppose you could just go looking for a new tier VII med, as you suggest, but I’m not good with that sort of thing, besides, there may actually be something we could replace the E-50M with, and we could have two new tanks, one at tier IX and the other at tier X, that’s something I’d be down for as all the panther clones are kind of redundant and boring. Give us something different please.

        I’m just fine with the tanks up to the E-50, but when they dropped the E-50M I kind of lost them there. I mean they’re both practically VK-A clone’s with great mobility and a really good gun. Well, the same gun actually, each version just has a different letter (Ausf. B and K) strapped on, with each version getting a “superbuff” over the last to keep it usable at higher tiers. The armor values are identical as well, the only difference is the E-50′s have a better slope, and no mg weak spot (which is getting removed, in 8.8 for the tiger II, and apparently all the other German tanks with one are getting them removed at some point as well.)

        I mean, I do kind of like where they have this play style that gets perpetuated all the way up to tier X, but after a while you kind of have to wonder if that sort of thing is really necessary, and wonder whether or not just having the one tank with that play style (VKA) will suffice, thus allowing us to have more varied tanks, and play styles at tier IX and X. Or, at the very least, having something that looks different, even if it doesn’t play different.

        • Problem is that E-50M is a pretty big stretch already, nothing post war is actually useable as they put those in the other medium tree.

          • What about more Czeck tanks? I think the plan is for them to be part of the European tree, but since they’ve already got three of them in the german tree and more if you count the td’s and spg’s that were based on those hull’s, they might be able squeeze in one or two more in the top end of the German tree. That would probably stretch it pretty far too since, as far as I know, Germany only used the Czeck tanks very early on as a stopgap, until they got their own tanks in production.

            Although, they did base some of their early tanks on the Czeck designs, so I suppose high tier Czeck tanks could be “plausible”, though just barely, and probably not at all, since the later German tanks took such a huge departure from the early designs.

          • Just thought of something else, they could just replace the E-50M with a heavy tank and have that tree be similar to the American T57 tree, Germany seems to have no shortage of heavy tanks, and the E-50′s are pushing towards heavy anyway. So that wouldn’t be as much of a stretch as the silly Czeck thing.

          • No, the Pz. IV did not have similar stats, yes they got rid of the 75 l/70, but that was because of the turret. The schmalturm was way op for tier V and should never have been considered for the tank anyway. The 30M does have 100 mm on the turret front, but that’s not as bad as the schmalturm was, the problem is the mantlet, not the turret armor. The side armor is pretty pathetic though.

            As for the hull, the Pz. III/IV has the same thickness set at about the same angle. all they’d have to do is take the top engine off the 30M and it would basically be a Pz. III/IV with much worse mobility and camo, with a better gun and turret (armor, traverse is worse).

  21. That is exactly how I’d like the German hvy three to look. I am fully behind this as behind any change that would bring more historicity! Even Overlord posted a kind of such tree back in the days, unfortunately saying it will never happen.
    gj Zarax

    • You do know that the Tiger was supposed to be rearmed with the 75mm L/70 to better perform in the anti-tank role, right?

  22. The radical version is interesting but I would much rather see the “mild” one in the game and not because of balance or similar considerations. The reason is that even tiers 6, 8 and 10 are, from players point of view, much more important than the odd tiers 7 and 9. TCs and CWs are based around even tiers and it would be really nice to see in these battles real / interesting tanks. VK3601 might be good tank, but definitely is not “sexy”.
    Imagine there would be not only KV1S, T34-85, Easy 8, or Cromwel but also Tiger and Panther (both of which would fit could fit) in TC6 battles instead of those VKs we have there now.

    • So as in ‘nobody’ you think you have the right to talk for everybody else? How about you start being more realistic – YOU don’t want a nerfed Kingtiger, E-75 and another ‘bad’ E-100.

      That doesn’t mean others don’t.

      Practically EVERY german heavy needs to be moved down a Tier (except for TigerP) and new Tier10s must be brought in. Maus II with a 15cm Kanone 16 L/43 on Tier10 would be a start – I mean, of course this coastal defense gun was never even considered to be mounted on a tank, however, the barrel length (right between the 155mm T7 L/40 of the US and the 152.4mm BL-10 L/46 and 152.4mm BL-8 L/47) and increased muzzle velocity over the L/38 would make a nice Tier10 gun.

      Even if it’s not historical, it would be balanced. Currently, you face two sorts of 15cm german TierX guns. E-100s with HEAT, and E-100s without. Same for the 12.8cm Maus, you face two sorts of TierX 12.8cm guns – those with APCR – and those without.

      However, the addition of an ~280mm Pen ‘Maus II’ and E-100 would erase that ‘with goldammo and without’ issue you currently have. With Goldammo, its penetration is borderline OP, without, its UP.
      Here you can have a gun that’s goldammo is on par with those of other tanks, and the AP-penetration would make german heavy tankers rarely have to use goldammo at all.

      Furthermore, I’d like Zarax to have a look at ‘Panzer Tracts 6-3′ page 54 on the lower right corner. It says the ‘Project B Antrieb’ of the E-100, using a 1,200hp Maybach engine, were designed for a rear drive and a topspeed of 40kph. For that the turret was to be moved forward (as happened recently)

      As I’m not a native english speaking person, I wonder wether this actually means that everything related to the engine (especially the engine-hitbox we have currently in the front, i think it’s the gearbox?) is to be moved to the back, therefore removing the engine-hitbox in the front.

  23. Bunch of nonsense. Same arguments yet again – “donwtier and give historical gun to tank_name_035″
    Well Tiger, Tiger II and E-75 are not the only ones in the game who don’t bear the historical gun, instead having guns that are sometimes on the edge of technical possibilities. Not only in the German tree.
    90mm on T20, 155mm on T95, 105mm on M46 and BatChat, 155mm on Foch, 122mm on KV-3, BL-9 on IS-3 and BL-10 on 704, to name some. Not even speaking of Chinese meds, for which the 122 guns only fit on paper, where the crew was imaginary and didn’t require any space.

    So drop that plain stupid argument and stop downtiering tanks. Honestly.

    • I think you’re messing that a bit up. The BL-10 and it’s longer brother BL-8 were tested on a ISU-152, designated ISU-152BM. The Object 704, had it been produced, would’ve most likely been called ‘ISU-152 model 1945′.

      So in fact it wasn’t tested on a Object 704, yes, however, the Object 704 featured more space for both loaders inside the superstructure, therefore, loading a 152mm gun was easier. So one could say, it wasn’t tested, however, it is reasonably justifiable that a Objekt 704, had it been produced / developed further, would’ve carried a 152mm BL-10. However, due to the end of the war, something like that wasn’t necessary.

      So what we actually have in-game, as Tier8 TD, is a mixture between the ISU-152, ISU-152BM (BL-10 gun) and ISU-152K (700hp engine amongst several other stuff).

      The 704 is an (unhistorical, but imaginable) ‘ISU-152 model 1945 mixed with ISU-152BM equipment and ISU-152K equipment.

      Giving a better, later developed project worse armament than it’s predecessor .. I can’t think of any case that this ever happened.

      • That’s plain wrong.
        Report about 704 says it offers LESS space for the crew, having SMALLER crew compartment compared to ISU, which in fact was at least one of the reasons why the project was dismissed.

  24. Very good and complete article. Was a very nice read.
    Keep up the good work, the german tanks need some serious downtiering in order to become historically accurate..

    • WOT JT is a compromise.
      You get slightly worse depression with the L/55 but at the same time we get depression and traverse way beyond reality in the long 128, which would have been restricted to something like -3° in reality.

  25. Was a good read. Moving the E-75 down along with everything below it makes sense. People may not like it but it’d probably be better for the tree. I’d hate to see another E-100 design though at least it’s not tier 10. For now though I think we’re stuck with the way it is until the Porsche tree gets a new tier 9. After that I have a feeling we might see something change.

    • In my trees I tend to see the tier IX as the “real battlefield” version of the tank, while the tier X would be the full dream design specs.

      So a relatively bad tier IX (E-100 with 1000 HP engine and heavier turret, Maus with 1500HP engine and 13kmh top speed) would teach the player to learn to use the top tier (basically as it would be a stock tank if tier X had a grind), while tier X would reward you with the full potential.

  26. iDunno, the moving down the VK3001H and DW2, maybe, but everything else… I like my Tiger II at tier 8, the Tiger is fine where it is too, and I don’t even want to think about the cries of “hax!” that would ensue from a tier 8 E-75. Why do all these tree “extensions” involve moving everything down a notch or two anyway?

    • Tier 8 E-75 would be pretty much the same as 8.7 Tiger II in armor profile, possibly better sides but slightly worse HP/ton ratio

  27. I personally wouldn’t mind the Tiger H moving down to tier 6, it’d actually see such as Sherman M4′s and Sherman jumbos and cromwells etc, which it would have been going up against in WW2, I sold my Tiger H because it just kept getting owned with the flat front plates and MG weakspot!

    • IIRC by the time the “Jumbo” reached the frontlines the Tiger was already pretty much out of production you know…

          • Buffs? Actually we’re nerfing tanks so much that they will drop down a tier on the weight of the nerfing!

        • Yeah, well. The KV-4 predates the Tiger by a year – or the plans thereof do, same thing really – and is a tier *higher*. And let’s not even get started on the French postwar weirdness. Hell, the German T10 superheavies are both like ’42 vintage too…
          Basically, don’t get too stuck up on the chronology.

  28. The problem is that you compare everything to Russians. There are other nations in the game too ;) . And what they offer on proposed tiers is… My conclusion is that 10tiers is not enough as well as integer tier balancing without considering modules isn’t.

    • Did I name russian tanks anywhere?
      I’m sure EE and Priory could come up with more historically accurate trees as well, that would match my work on the german one.
      TBH I feel a few russian tanks could use some down-tiering, although mostly on tier IV.

  29. GUNRANGE GUNRANGE GUNRANGE If the game was more accurate w the range of tank guns that would make big difference. Tiger “I” was accurate at 1000 meters! period. Most of its counterparts could not match that!