As WG is seemingly aware of light tanks becoming less competitive as class, I decided to interview some EU players about their feeling on what the issues are and what should be improved.
The sample was pretty small (15 players), but then I wanted opinions rather than statistics so don’t take it as a huge poll capable of influencing WG.
The players ranged from Bad WN to Unicum levels with an average of 1294 according to noobmeter.com so relatively skilled players (not unexpected given that active forums posters usually are the better informed and skilled part of the community) and definitely better than yours truly, which is average at best.
So, what did those players think about it?
The main concerns seems to be view range and match making, one being seen not enough of an edge VS high tier mediums and TDs and the other too punishing for some tanks.
Mobility and camo rating are also seen as insufficient especially compared to high tier mediums while some players would also like improved firepower.
How much of this would be possible in WOT considering historical requirements?
View Range:
Top tier light tanks have comparable or worse view range to many other tier X vehicles, making them as disadvantage when it comes to active scouting and allegedly not enough even for passive in some cases
Would this be possible to improve? Yes and no.
The maximum view range in WOT is 420m and reserved to open-top vehicles, while enclosed ones usually top at 390-400m. As trying to push WG into changing mechanics is pretty hard, let’s see the historical route to circumvent the problem and look for open-top designs.
Those are indeed available at least on the German side but they have two downsides:
1) They were usually SPG/AAA turrets
2) They look bigger and aren’t exactly made to be pleasant to the eye, let’s take the top German scout hull as example:
Not exactly what you could call camo-friendly, right? This is also one of the reasons why I always argued against a scout Panther but even other choices would entail big turrets detrimental of camouflage, so possibily not an ideal solution.
Mobility:A mix of soft stats and power to weight ratio is what gives agility in WOT and this is a field where much is possible.
Aside from considering making light tanks better on most terrains, I think more powerful engines could be available for most high tier lights, worst case bending history a little bit.
On the German side, AFK Panther could for example mount the 1150 HP GT-102 gas turbine although that would mean a much bigger engine module and a very vulnerable one at it, while the lower-tier VK 2801 could be upgraded to its heaving variant, mounting the Maybach HL-230 in a slightly larger, 34 ton chassis.
Firepower:
The topic is pretty tricky as in most cases all light designs already topped their historical designs or went over them.
A potential solution could be to take the compromise route used in the Panzer II and let the flak cannons be used in AT role or alternatively lift partially the smooth bore cannon ban for the low velocity HEAT guns such as the PAW series on the German sides and similar guns for most post war designs, although the downside would be a flood of requests for designs such as the Sheridan which is likely over the top.
Game mechanics:
This part is trickier as WG seldom listens of mechanics proposals.
Here the most frequent request is a return of the strong environmental camo (translated as bushes can hide them better) for light tanks or lessened activation times for camo net and binoculars.
Match making for lights is also a very strong issue as it’s seen as being too harsh in many cases (and I personally agree for some tier IV lights at least), both for bringing unskilled players into battles where they have no idea on how to influence the outcome and in high tier lights seeing too often battles where they are out-matched by tier X mediums in the active scouting role and many heavies are also seen as too agile to be outmaneuvered by light tanks.
All in all, rebalancing light tanks won’t be an easy job for WG, especially as their original task of artillery hunting has decreased in priority.
Still, I personally highly appreciate when a light driver does a proper spotting job as it can seriously bring the upper hand in a fight.
I cannot count the matches where I was forced in a TD or heavy tank to do the spotting by myself (often with very bad results), so a proper revival of a class that promotes team-play more than most would be highly welcome.
more camo, more firepower.
More camo, more mobility..especially for Germans.
So, you essentially want a package thats faster than medium tanks, more stealthy than medium tanks, has better or equal penetration than medium tanks, has better view range than medium tanks, but only with less alpha damage?
Im sorry but no.
Light tanks have no place in tier 10 battles – when it comes to combat. They can have soft stats like spotting capability or cammo, but IMO no light tank should have more than 150 penetration. If you wanna fight and do damage drive medium heavy or a TD.
It’s the usual powercreep issue. They want super tank which would combine firepower, mobility, camo etc. in one tank.
Tier 8-10 meds have practically rendered all low tier 6- obsolete.
Agree, light tanks does not have any place in any battles when it comes to killing or even damage heavy, tds and medium tanks. If you want a agile tank do to these thing then mediums ís the way to go. Light tanks are good, because a skilled one with good crew skills can outpot a team. But then again, if we should be honest, light as just like tds and artys. They prevent heavys and medium from moving on the battlefied in fear of beeing spotted and shoot by insivible enemies.
Sure lights should be buffed but do they really make game more dynamic? Not with the current state when there are too many idiots camping and refuse to move, the team with the best scout will obviously win. On the other hand I dont think its sane to sit in a bush and spot people like crazu, just to make artys and tds snipe you.
>Agree, light tanks does not have any place in any battles when it comes to killing or even damage heavy, tds and medium tanks.
I disagree, but 150-175 damage on an extremely fast platform is good enough when you know what you’re doing
>Sure lights should be buffed but do they really make game more dynamic? Not with the current state when there are too many idiots camping and refuse to move, the team with the best scout will obviously win.
1) If scouts could pick out enemy TDs in a defensive line, they would help break camping so much easier.
2) No. I’m probably one of the few scouts who actually knows what he’s doing and I can’t make a difference if my team does not engage them or understand the map to realize what 3 T-54s flanking hard right actually represents. I can be doing the lord’s work, but it is nothing without a helping gunner in the correct spot.
> Light tanks are good, because a skilled one with good crew skills can outpot a team.
I find this to be a severe problem, actually. Scouts are only effective when you max out the camouflage skill. This presents a massive problem where new scout players have crews that are constantly changing while they’re trying to learn the trade, consistantly receive poor exp gains for a longer drag to 100% camouflage, and then get completely outmatched by the 3 skill good scouts. Each one on their own is an obstacle to learning to play scouts.
“I disagree, but 150-175 damage on an extremely fast platform is good enough when you know what you’re doing”
- So basicly another class of medium like tanks with less armor and hp but much better mobilty, camo and view range?
“If scouts could pick out enemy TDs in a defensive line, they would help break camping so much easier”.
- Good idea but in practice how often would that happen? Also picking out 2/3 of a whole team seem kinda over optimistic. I still dont see how this will affect heavys and tds hinding behind hard cover or hills, only poping out to take a shot and then pull back. Campers are smarter these days because bushes are nerfed, they use hard cover and arty safe spots. Some maps have camping spots that nobody can reach then unless they sneak up behind but when that happens the team is loosing badly anyways.
“Light tanks are good, because a skilled one with good crew skills can outpot a team.”
- Well you need at least 4-5 crew skill on any tank to be effective according to me. BIA, repair and camo as well as deditated skill on all crew members is what should be a goal for everyone, even if that means playing 5000 games with one crew.
> – So basicly another class of medium like tanks with [STRIKEOUT]less[/STRIKEOUT] no armor or hp but much better mobilty, camo and view range?
The Alphabet panther certainly is fitting that role, isn’t it?
And no. Plenty of mediums can hold or tank objectives. The best a Scout can do is skirmishflank or play an ersatz Hellcat. Even the T71 needs to load.
>- Well you need at least 4-5 crew skill on any tank to be effective according to me
Might as well just ask to be a unicum too by that point. Every tank does better with 5 skills; almost every tank should seriously have a 100% crew; not all of them depend on 1 skill to even properly do its job. Even Tank destroyers have standoff distance to help tide them over the hump of getting past 50% on the first skill.
>“If scouts could pick out enemy TDs in a defensive line, they would help break camping so much easier”.
>- Good idea but in practice how often would that happen? Also picking out 2/3 of a whole team seem kinda over optimistic.
How often is 2/3rds of a team going to be what’s holding up an entire line? Never mind the fact that you don’t /need/ to have every tank holding the point spotted, you only need to help your team gain the advantage. They don’t even need to be hit if they see sixth sense go off in some cases – in that case, you successfully suppresses a likely vital contribution to the enemy’s defensive position.
Additionally, while bushes may have been nerfed, I don’t think you quite realize how camo works. The best camouflage and skill in the game only stops you from getting spotted in the open at about 310 meters against your typical 400 meter viewrange. Bushes and depressions are the sole reason scouts can come, or TDs can hide within 100-200 meters in the open and not remain seen.
>Campers are smarter these days because bushes are nerfed, they use hard cover and arty safe spots.
Except those are so few in number as to severely limit enemy options. The bigger you get, the more pronounced the effect. And don’t tell me the Hellcat or RHM have been unable to keep abusing the hell out of camo skill and bushes – I work this branch of tanks for a living and they have repeatedly stayed hidden 200-300 meters away after shooting. The threat of uncertainty plays on the minds of E-75 and IS-3 drivers everywhere who don’t know what’s next, and that is part of the camping problem. Telling them that the WT E-100, ISU-152, or RHM is probably not there with some degree of certainty is critical.
> I still dont see how this will affect heavys and tds hinding behind hard cover or hills, only poping out to take a shot and then pull back.
Not every situation is a cornercamp standoff. I have had plenty of times where the sole problem has been a certain set of magic forests or tree lines filled with invisible TDs with their extra aftershot camo staying completely invisible for appreciable distances. Additionally, not every fight is fought at 100 meters. Rheinmetall Waffentraggers are especially notorious for this.
i’m with you. More camo and some soft stats, make them more steathly. But never the firepower. If you add more firepower to a light tank, you’ll see them camping and snipe, instead of doing they job
Mediums would have more armor and health. If light tanks should be useful they need to at least pack a punch before their squishiness starts to show. I don’t want tier 8 lights with guns better than tier 9 meds, I want tier 8 lights with firepower to reliably punch through the opponents it encounters. If they fix the matchmaking to be normal, their firepower is fine. If they’re gonna keep on seeing tier 9-10 tanks for the most part, give them firepower to deal with tier 9-10 tanks.
More firepower? Do you understand the meaning of SCOUT? If you think that scouts are supposed to kill tanks, ur definetly wrong…
Imo the only thing that scouts need is increased Max view range from 450, to 500+ would make them instantly an viable vehicles.
Or decrease viewrange for every single vehicle from average 400 to 300 but scout leave the same
Theres no point making changes that will prevent people from moving on the battlefield. If scouts become too powerfull the tanks with best camo and best pen/alpha or rof will be winners just like it is today. Many tanks can still today sit in the open derping and staying unspotted. Game is too unbalanced to just “buff” scouts in this state.
Simply theres no fucking place for slow and heavy old school tanks in wot anymore, like the tiger II. I play it pretty good, but I clearly see the drawbacks with all these new changes like new maps and tanks. This is a global problem.
The only one who will benefit from better scouts, in terms of spotting will be artys, tds and camping mediums and heavys with good camo value (there are many but none are germsn).
72 kph
turns on a dime
top camo
420 view range
.32 accuracy
200 pen
100 damage
25 rpm with bia/vents
NO armor, 20mm max.
1200 hit points.
That is a tier X scout, if such a thing ever existed, I have no idea.
Anything less than that, and I probably wouldn’t play it in CW.
Then I want a arty that 1 shots 3 tanks with its 200mm gun….realistic yes, good for game balance no.
You mean T92?
Which tanks need more firepower? You can argue the VK2801 needs a buff, but the T21 with the M1A2 is extremely effective with just 128 penetration and a good flanking position.
Another solution that I haven’t seen proposed…yet we know has been considered (please don’t persecute me):
- Nerf 6th Sense. Scouts would be much more valuable if every tank they light up didn’t know and immediately run for cover.
Just introduce more light tanks and give them all normal MM, done. (and nerf the Chaffee cause it will become too strong tier 5 tank)
Top tier scouts should just get a bit more health and view range. Improving firepower has nothing to do with scouting.
Chaffee will be split into itself (stock turret and gun) and tier 6 T37 (top turret and gun, different hull). Tier 5 Chaffee will have better MM then (like leopard)
Chaffee is actually a tier 6 light tank with a teir 5 label. It gets teir 6 light matchmaking, has teir 6 hitpoints, et cetera. The only reason it’s called a teir 5 light is because there is no suitable tank to bridge the gap at teir 5 (after the M5 Stuart). We had the same deal with the T-50-2. That’s why the MT-25 is a teir 6 light tank. That’s why it doesn’t need a nerf.
normal MM for LT? sorry but i don’t want to see a match with 2 tier 10, 1 team with a LT and another with a WT E100. It’s a stupid idea to bring arty to tier 10, and now don’t do the same with LT. Scout MM force LT to do they job, not running around and fight like a MT
Heartily agreed, and I’m a td driver who has benefited from the vulnerability of lights! +2 great post.
As for ideas… Camo and view range. If they’re called scouts, give them the ability to scout.
As it stands I don’t think lights will be any good until WG starts doing larger maps.
This, sir.
Increasing the camo/view range of light tanks in the current maps will encourage only camping in order to hide from scouts.
That is true, in the games current state, better scouts in term of spotting will make it more bullshit. Sure artys will benefit from having more spotted objects, but then again im not sure the desired effect of scouts is made to benefit arty? As mentioned before, better spotting will encourage people to sit back and snipe. A more dynamic gameplay is what we are after right? Otherwise we could might as well keept arty as they were and never nerfed any TD at all or any camo from bushes. And hell even remove 6th sense so we all can camp not even having any use of that perk.
Problem is only a small amount of tanks will benefit from this scout bush, which till be mainly stealthy TDs and medium tanks with good guns, armor and mobilty since these can hide quicker if spotted and or avoid arty shells. The bigger, slower heavy tanks and tds with bad armor and bad mobilty and bad camo, will be even more useless. Not will they be too slow to hide once spotted but also too slow to avoid arty shells. Sure they can take they easy route and camp at safe spots like amny are doing, but then again the game gets static and boring.
The reworked maps in 8.11 is a good example of bad decison there many slopes, hills and ridge lines were flattenm out, making it hard to take cover while in a battle. Its is even more obvious nwo that its all about mobilty and rof, and here we have the tier 9-10 medium tanks benefiting from these changes.
Just dont buff viewrange – that would be a harsh nerf for vehicles that dont have camo, but camo ones wont suffer much (because of 1m additional spotting range would come down to a real usable value of like 0,2m).
So buff it not in direct numbers but in some sort of special modifier in formula.
A special set of modifiers that reduces camovalue of HT, MT and TDs.
So it has 420m viewrange for instance – like M48 Patton. Patton and a scout stay next to each other, Patton wont spot a RHM @ 300m but LT will do it, because he has an negative offset on spotting TD-Vehicles.
Nice idea,
Appy
How about making scouts worthwhile by massively nerfing view range on everything else? Force TDs to rely on team spots, make heavies far more blind. Make mediums retain some, as they are already halfway between light and heavy (kind of), and give scouts large view radii and solid camo.
The other option would be to give scouts some kind of anti-camo property.
One way or another, though, the biggest issue facing scouts is the matchmaking. At the very least, scouts need to be taken out of the ‘normal’ progression and put in their own offshoot trees, and preferably, scouts at every tier with ‘acceptable’ stats for the tier, instead of t4s seeing t8s that oneshot them routinely, and even t6/7/8 scouts getting oneshot by high-tier TDs.
This is a large part of what I’ve been saying for many months now.
Step 1: WG decides which tanks are “light tanks” and which are “scout tanks”
Step 2: Light tanks keep their current tier, but get nerf’s to bring them into line, while also losing scout match making
Step 3: All scout tanks would see their tiers increased by either +1 or +2. Further, all scout tanks would have their own “line” so it would be more easy for people to see what their role is. With the tier increase, they would get buffs as needed, such as increased view range and more HP (but less HP than medium tanks). As an example, if the WZ-132 were tier 10 it might have 1500-1700 HP.
Step 4: Divide Scout tanks into subgroups of “active” and “passive”. Scouts designated as “active” have better view range, lower camo, better agility, and better guns relative to “passive” scouts. The reason is that they play more of an active role so need a better gun, they would mount optics vs binocs. “Passive” scouts would lose their on the move camo bonus.
Step 4: Scout tanks would get a bonus for assistance damage.
Step 5: All other classes of tanks would get their view range nerfed.
Arty: Should have very bad view range.
Tank Destroyers: Should have bad view range.
Heavy Tanks: Should have poor view range.
Medium Tanks: Should have good view range
Light Tanks: Should have good view range
Passive Scouts: Should have good view range
Active Scouts: Should have great view range.
It is idiotic that tier 10′s all have (except a few Arty) at least 400m view range and then create a class of tanks that is supposed to “scout” but usually has worse view range than the tanks that they are supposed to be scouting.
With this change, there would need to be some other changes for balance reasons. As an example, medium tanks would need their pen reduced. They should be flankers again. But with good view range compared to most other tanks and high pen, they become self-spotting snipers without this nerf.
In general, this brings back the idea that every class has a general role. It’s idiotic that TD’s have become passive spotters and damage dealers. It’s fine that TD’s do massive damage, but make it a risk/reward system for every class.
Passive scouts should have better viewrange than active ones imo. And why make passive ones less agile and worse armed? So what will be their role if u want em to be worse in everything than active ones?
I agree with the first 3 steps.
Also – open-topped TDs should have by design better view range :)
From a game-play perspective, why should all tanks have great view range?
Further, why should an open topped TD have better view range (unless you mean as compared to closed topped TD’s)?
As it stands now, why should the WT E100 have 420 meters of view range?
Because passive scouts will all use binocs vs active scouts using optics. So if you give a passive scout better view range than an active scout, the passive scout would have massively better view range. The view range needs to be balanced so that there is a battle on who sees who first, the passive scout or the active scout.
The passive scout needs speed/acceleration to get to proper positions to passively scout.
The passive scout should only fire it’s gun in self defense/as a last resort and when it’s in final clean up mode. If you give passive scouts too good of a gun, people will want to play it as a passive sniper.
The role of a passive scout is area denial via view range. Ie. A passive scout teamed with a couple of TD’s can deny a flank allowing for more tanks on the “attacking” flank.
All of this is hard to envision (pun intended) with the horribly small maps with limited routes of attack we have now, but in the future with larger maps it’ll make more sense.
Agree with everything, save for the passive scouts being universaly worse than the active ones.
The scouts that get delegated to passive roles usually are those who make big targets and don’t have the mobility to evade fire, and we’re going to reduce their effectiveness even more?
If anything, things like the AwfullPanther(which should be replaced anyway, but makes for a good example.) should have the highest view range in the game.
That would make the game a huge campfest. How many times has your team just sat back, and you cannot just push forward cause they are camping hard in your base?
How would enabling scouts to scout create a campfest?
Good scouts would actually eliminate camping, as camping team could get spotted and shot at.
because of this TDs sitting still behind a bush would not feel so clever.
The problem with massivly buffing light view range and nerf all other tanks view range is that they will less likely be spotting them selves which is bad for dynamic gameplay. How the fuck can the game be dynamic when only light will be able to spot? Tanks must be able to spot them selves at a reasonable distance because some tanks are more effective fighting at range than in medium to close quarter battles. And not even that, even if both heavys has 300m view range, the one with better camo value and armor will totally mess up the other ones. How is this fair?
We cant have a game where battles is too dependent on scouts, in terms of spotting. You say heavys and tds should be more team dependent? Well, like doing what camping and wait for allies to spot, because that is exactly what is the situation now days, they let allies spot so they can sit and snipe and this isnt a good this. Dynamic gameplay is achiever by letting all tanks move on that battlefield and spot and make damage themseles.
I achieve my results because i move on the battlefield, and if they should be denied because i cant no longer spot myself, im no more good than a td with worse gun and worse armor, no point playing heavys anymore. Be carefull what yoú wish for.
1. Medium tanks would remain jack-of-all-trades, which means that they can still “scout”, just not as well as a dedicated scout tank as they would have better view range than heavies and TD’s.
2. In any area where there are no “scouts”, explain how you couldn’t do what you are doing now if your heavy had 300 meters of view range (as an example) instead of 400 meters? You would still spot for yourself, just at closer ranges.
3. Reducing the base view range for all tanks would allow more room to give some tanks a slight buff to view range. IE. A “sniping” heavy may have 320 meters of view range when the “normal” heavy view range is 300 meters.
What these changes mean is that when scouts are doing their job correctly, you will still be able to snipe from 700 meters. Once the scouts are dead, then you are FORCED to move forward to find and engage the enemy.
Further, by making TD’s have the lowest view range it allows your heavy to lead a charge without having to worry about a self-spotting TD sniping you from outside of your view range.
This means that the games should be more dynamic, not less.
Not really true, because even if there are no scouts, making tanks spotted closer is not a good thing. Sure it doesnt matter if you are playing in close quarters or in flanks, but if you are in semi open areas that 100m is important in a battle. That is because some tanks are more effective at longer range in this areas than others. This still wont solve the camping issue, the tank with better camo rating and trollish armor will still have a advantage, only that he will be penning you more easily because the distance is closer.
Nerfing view range alone wont solve it all though because its also about the camo rating of the tanks. The tank with better camo and or binos or net will still get unspotted even if it has worse vier range. Its the mentality that has to change to make people camp less, nothing else. Take the isu 152 for exampl, in theory I sould be spotting him much further due to I have better view range, but he has much better camo making me take hits by insivible enemies. If this should be solved then view range and camo must be heaily nerfed on majority of stealthy tanks to make them see alot less while camping.
Its always easy to speculate “what if there are no scouts”. Well what if there are no Tds and arty in the team, does the game become more dynamic in its current state? My guess is well it doesnt because people have a cowardy and campy mentality.
Leading a charge is not always that easy these days, because of many reasons. Even if Tds arnt spotting you there could might as well be a medium and a heavy behind a bush doing it, even if there would be no scouts. In 8/10 times a is3 will outspot and get the first shot on a tiger II if he is behind a bush in a flank because he has better camo and better mobilty to get to those places. Make the view range 100 meters, this problem still exists. The only differance is that getting spotted at 300 meters makes a little room to let him bounce my tank or not hit weakspots due to “long aimtime” and “unaccurate” gun. But at closer distance the is3 will totally splash thru the tiger II because its much more easy to aim and pen at closer distance. This is another problem. If you are in medium to close range view range doesnt matter, but the critical moment is spot yourself and beeing spotted at medium to long distance by one tank. in 8.6 you could survuve beeing spotted at those distanced even if you didnt see the enemy because accuracy of all guns were lower, nowdays not so much actually. The camping didnt got worse or better after 8.6 and some even think it became worse.
Yea, standard MM for lights is pretty much all that’s needed, imo.
I mean we have lights/scouts on pretty much every tier except the top ones, where they are easily outclassed by mediums anyway, so what is the point of +4 MM in a first place?
If the maps were 3x3km minimum, then we could talk about scout roles and balancing, but on 1x1km I wouldn’t really bother >_>
That would pretty much make all heavys and slower tds useless if they would be moving because there would be too much room to no be flanked. This would also make gold spamming mediums dominating like hell.
I’d say a terrain resistance buff. Make them fun to drive, so that they can easily circle and outmanoever enemies, but keep the guns as they are (maybe even nerf?). That way people will drive these because they are so fast and so fun, but quickly realise that they can’t just try to solo heavies (especially supported ones) then they should be forced into the path of actually learning how to scout and pick off lone tanks!
And what tanks cant they circle and outflank these days? Tell me them and lets nerf these because if there are mediums, heavys and tds that are too mobile then they are certainly a threat to all tanks on the battlefield. But i guess people wouldnt like a mobilty and traverse nerf to their beloved t54, t62, is3, is6, etc, right?
Buff light tanks – what for? What most of them do is one suicide run even before anybody is at the position to take advantage of it and shoot something. The rest takes cover in some safe place (preferably behind arty) and spends there all the battle. Less then 1% actually tries to do anything positive in game.
Exactly because of that. Because they are so brutally outmatched by only one or two tier higher tanks in all aspects other than maybe mobility and camo, that there’s nothing much more an average player could do.
Now there’s not much a T8 scout can do, that a T9-X med can’t do better.
Well, theres not much a tier 8 TD can do, that a tier 9 and 10 medium and heavy can do better. Its all the same. Im not sure a tier 8 ascout even should be competitive in a tier 9 and 10 game to beginn with. I can even go so far so say that theres no much a tier 10 heavy can do that a tier 9-10 medium cant, which shows that there are huge imbalances in the game.
>Well, theres not much a tier 8 TD can do, that a tier 9 and 10 medium and heavy can do better.
Most Tier 8 TDs have incredible guns that would give most mediums and quite a lot of heavies of the next tier a run for their money.
Additionally, TDs aren’t capped at tier 8. Nor are they sharing roles with many other vehicles quite like the medium and light lines do. The closest you could argue would be German Heavies and SPGs.
>I can even go so far so say that theres no much a tier 10 heavy can do that a tier 9-10 medium cant, which shows that there are huge imbalances in the game.
I can even go far as to say that it’s severely debatable. What Tier 9 mediums can lock down a spot on the map or advance across an open field of fire at relative leisure?
Then why do we have according to stats OP tank playing exactly the same? Either suicide rush or camping arty safe/behind arty? Dont you think this is a mentality f players these days and not mainly because the tank is “UP”?
Just a maxviewrange on non-lights of 380 m and lights will be fine
Scouts need;-
Speed (possible but detracking is bad as it is)
Agility (terrain “friction” reduction would help a lot)
Camo (most are quite good is used correctly)
View Range (game limited)
(guns are not a must, many can pen flanks or detrack already)
They MUST have high ratios of 3 of 4 of the above to be viable,
I would put agility above all, this would auto-increase speeds anyway (or rather, not lose speed/momentum)
An extra addition/change?
Give them a better “camo whilest firing” ratio…
I agree mostly with you. i just think they should some of them also capable guns like the VK 28.01 with it’s crappy derp. i’ll say give every scout like roughly +10% to mobility depending on tank and give some of them better mm . i think -+3 should do it instead of +- 4. that will also be a huge relief for the A-20 and so on. and if that is not enough give tier 4 scouts that are not competitive normal mm. but leave the luchs for example alone as it is a great tier 4 scout. and they should btw focus on single tanks more than on the whole class. because the wz series do their jobs for example
Wz 131 and 132 are special because they have good guns and mobility. All other scouts have shitty guns and/or bad mobility. 2801 has almost same weight and hp/ton ratio but 50% or 30% (don’t remember) ground resistance than 131. Its also much bigger, turns slower and has crappy guns. Derp Is usable only in hands of pro player, while 110 pen of 7,5l48 sucks as much as 95pen in 59-16. Overall scouts need one thing only: regular mm. It would also eliminate current hitpoints difference. ( fx Leo with 440hp vs unpenetrable e75 with 1900hp)
The VK 28.01 used to be a REALLY good active scout, but then it got nerfed directly and indirectly 3 patches in a row. The “fixing” of gun dispersion, which effectively makes all guns more accurate, the HEAT nerf (which in my opinion was needed cuz VK 28.01 HEAT was really overpowered), the engine nerf (which happened to numerous German vehicles), the top speed nerf (72 to 65 I believe) and the high explosive nerf all crippled the VK 28.01. Most of these nerfs were COMPLETELY unnecessary in my opinion and horribly nerfed the once great VK 28.01.
Oh boy how much I loved that tank even before the HE nerf which finally killed it.
>Speed (possible but detracking is bad as it is)
>Agility (terrain “friction” reduction would help a lot)
Just increasing agility or speed would be a godsend. The biggest reason scouts are so flimsy is because of the 8.6 accuracy buff. There are many single solutions that could fix scouts right up, and this is probably one of the easiest things to do.
I’ve had so many games where orange skill artillery would blap me in an ELC going full speed across the map. I rely on my tracks more than the hopes the horrendously inaccurate ISU, IS, or KV-2 will miss me if I get spotted in any scout. Snap shots seem to be no problem for enough spam in the right place. Give me the ability to pass short distances with a reasonable chance of survival, and I think the scout meta would become much better. However, I think it might be too much if the scouts received significant agility AND camo, or guns, or viewrange, or Matchmaking, or all 5. Choose 1-2, stay with them.
Give them standard MM and that already fixes a lot of the problems. If they’re worried about scouts having too much HP on higher tiers, just give an overall nerf to the HP of LTs across the board (so current T8 LT HP becomes more like T10 LT HP).
Maybe less camo penalty from firing their guns? So it allows them to support other tanks more easily while retaining their original roles? Only issue I see with this is it being very annoying to be constantly tracked by an undetectable entity.
I think the best things though would be reduce terrain resistance and boost acceleration across the board. Speed can remain as is, but some LTs in my experience have poor acceleration which makes it hard to transition between roles, which is something I think a LT needs to be able to do.
For the wacky idea of the day, introduce a new “Recon Tank” class and make “Light Tank” exclusive to the lower tiers since not every LT is a scouter, and making a change to them across the board would probably affect the performance of lower tier LTs as well.
Yeah sure, give T8 scouts 800hp health so even nerfed 750alpha TDs can oneshot them. Bright idea!
Scouts are OP if they meed same tier tanks so thats one thing right. I totally think its idiotic to be autoclipped by a tier 7-8 ´french scout in my tiger II and get set on fire. Thats one inbalance to beginn with.
Fire is Tiger’s UP stuff not scouts’ OP stuff. And there’s barely a real chance that a 13 90 would oneclip a Tiger II.
I one clipped a Ferdi in my T71 :) just saying…
I have played 3100 battles in ferdie I got 3 crew killed by every 1 shot the t71 made, happend many times. Balanced?
As much as anything else in the game.
By the by, your butthurt is showing.
Butthurt no? Annoyed yes.
Uh-huh.
Because we all know stronk skauts have extra bonuses against crew members and shit.
A scout found the weakest element of a TD, achieved surprise, and exploited it. This is gameplay, not a balance problem. The same shit could have happened with a M26 Pershing or a T-44 /without/ the 15 second reload for a second 700 damage volley.
Its not UP, its well balanced. Just like the ferdie is well balanced but the rhm and JPII is OP as fuck.
Amazing as it may seem, some lights tanks actually *were* designed with enough firepower to threaten AFVs well above their weight class. At least from the less-protected directions.
.______.
Shocking, I know.
Solution: Sell all underpowered heavies and TDs as Tigers and Ferdinands, play OP french light tanks or T71 and stop complaining.
Lights no longer can hunt Arty, there’s not enough arty in the game now to just buy lights for this sole purpose.
Lights no longer can fight Heavies, some are to agile to be carouseled while others are too heavily armored for under-gunned lights to deal much damage.
Light no longer can spot so well, there’s no med that couldn’t do it as good as light and they’re much more armored, armed and have more hp.
Lights no longer can passively scout, both meds and TD’s surpass them in View Range, and they’re much more beefy targets at the same time.
The only thing the lights can do is actively scout… but then again with the accuracy buff this become much more difficult then ever before but its still something they do best among all kinds of tanks. I think the boldest approach would be buffing light tank agility to extreme, considering WG isn’t eager to fiddle with game mechanics. Other than that, I have no idea how they could revive the LT class.
Yup, give our T-50-2 back with a 420m viewrange!!!!
Easier mm and mobility buff are simplest solution! German scouts aren’t now more agile than Russian or american meds. Even acceleration isn’t better. Only top speed is higher while u get gun -1tier and enemies up to +4 tier
Thers not many artys, but the ones that are left get easily killed and fast by scout as we speak due to nerfed mobily (removed engines) and worse accuracy (no way to defend them). So its safe to say that better scouts per say wont make artys increase in number. Not all tanks are strong against scouts. Many high tier heavys get autloclipped by french and american scouts as it is today, tell me how that is fair dude?
Not true, arty always one shots my scouts in .2 seconds thanx to accuracy buffs. They hit me 90% of the time as they are moving, turning, and traversing all at the same time. It is fucking insane.
What accuracy buff? The artys never got improved dispersion values in 8.6 because devs didnt want to make artys more accurate so get ur facts straight. And even if they got better accuracy, the stats like gun accuracy and aimtime got alot worse, makig it harder to hit any tank on the battlefield from the first beginning.
Artillery got an accuracy buff recompensation in 8.9. Check the patch notes.
Additionally, 8.6 Artillery DID receive improved dispersion, but the additional accuracy was nerfed as compensation for the bonus.
…I’m starting to think you have some kind of fixation on heavies getting killed by lights, TT.
Show on this model where the bad scouts shot you..?
Ocf I have because it is fucking wrong, as well as people use gold ammo. We all have fixations otherwise artys would never get nerfed and tds would never get nerfed (not enough) in 8.11.
BOO HOO
GUNS KILL TANKS
How *very* unsporting of now long dead light-tank designers to have kitted out their creations with weapons actually useful against enemy AFVs. Scandalous, really.
…feel free to explain what’s supposed to be “fucking wrong” about it, aside from your obvious inability to deal with the fact?
It is wrong because of game balance, just like its is totally retarded the way arty work and make UP damage despite large caliber guns, but neccersarly for gameplay. Real life has little impact on this games balance…
It’s bad for game balance for a desperately fragile tin can to have the temerity of actually being able to hurt a big stronk tenk when given the opportunity to do so?
To speak nothing of the fact a lot of the stronkbawkses have sufficiently thin sides, rears and other weak areas the only way dem skuats wouldn’t be able to hurt and kill them from an opportune angle would be by arbitrarily replacing their weapons with *literal* nerfguns?
bitchplease.jpg
Get yer head outta yer ass.
As an aside, now I kinda wanna see how you’re going to cope with tin-can destroyers and their capital-ship crippling torpedoes one fine day when WoWS comes out…
I wont play any bullshit wows game.
Right, ’cause THAT was the point.
>Thers not many artys, but the ones that are left get easily killed and fast by scout as we speak due to nerfed mobily (removed engines) and worse accuracy (no way to defend them)
Haha, it’s as though you don’t know SPGs can shotgun TD amazingly well at close ranges now.
They should just change the way light tanks work…allowing them to do something that other will never be able to do.
And only such thing I’m thinking about is to seriously improve their camo so they can either do active spotting in much closer quarters or do passive scouting very close to the enemy without being spotted.
But this will be heavily unbalanced and will encourage camping…
Giving them more firepower won’t make them better than tier 9-10 mediums.
Mobility could be a way…but, why they removed, for example, the t-50-2 then?…or why they nerfed the t-50?And how they can buff their mobility while keeping their “historical” terms?
View range increase will have the same problems as the camo increase.
And matchmaking decrease will require a general nerf…every scout in game is a rampage on tracks when they get a low tier match.Yeah, they’ll earn less exp, but still will ruin others match.
For example, do you remember when the AMX 12t/13 series got introduced, when they had no scout MM?They were one-clipping even the higher tier tanks…
These amx can still mess up a tier 8 german heavy in no time while flanked. Even more effective than a tier 7-8 medium tank. This is totally idiotic accordong to me.
IRL Kingtigers died readily enough of 85mm’s to the side; not really seeing why it’s “idiotic” for them to die of 90mm’s to the side regardless of what exactly the gun now is in…
Reminder: the French like to build their skawts as half light TDs, and were doing so already *before* the war.
Answer is game balance. If we want realistic gameplay then WT is there to enjoy all your perverse 1 shot capabilities. If we want realistic gameplay lets all roll around in MBT with smoothbore guns shooting thru all armor regardles of tank.
Ikr, what WERE they thinking – giving scouts enough gun to not be totally helpless against enemy tonks? That’s not how God meant things to be I tells you.
Raging butthurt and irrelevant strawman hyperboles are not a valid argument. Abort/retry/fail?
Oh yes, those light autoloaders are racking up top guns with each magazine load.
We have dismissed the claim.
T71 manages 780 damage with a 2 second dispersion between shots, then a 15 second reload. That’s 27 seconds to get your damage in and start round 2 of his corrida de toros.
Generally buffing light’s scouting ability will change little, the major problem is that the majority of the maps are simply not designed with scouts in mind. A large amount of a scout’s time is playing as a low hp, unarmoured and undergunned medium, because there is simply nothing else it can do on those maps.
The only way you can probably help lights now is standard MM, so at least they can be dangerous quasi-mediums on those maps that have little/no opportunities for scouting.
Only other thing that may work is a massive view range nerf to virtually every class except lights (most for TDs, HT get a middling nerf, MT small nerf) throughout the trees – at all tiers. I would probably nerf the camo of the larger TDs too, since I’ve sneaked through Murovanka’s magic forest in a max camoed/viewranged scout to only detect a TD the size of a small house at 50m (so of course he saw me too, guess how that ended). This has the danger of making scouts into unstoppable killing machines in open ground though, since they can sit 300m from a target and shoot it full of holes because the target can’t see the scout shooting due to nerfed viewrange/scouts camo.
“large amount of a german heavys time is playing as a xp pinata, unarmoured and mediocre gunned heavy, because there is simply nothing else it can do on those maps.”
- Fixed it for you, that is how it is to play vk45 and tiger II germans “heavys”….
Stop being bad.
Look my tiger II stats and tell me im bad pussy….but despite that problems still exist.
Tell me your actual ingame nick and I’ll be happy to.
Doesn’t alter the fact you sure whine like a 45′er n00b though.
My name is t3azz pussy…check in game.
.__________.
How very… mediocre. (FYI my *average* WR is about the same as your pride-of-place Kingtiger’s…)
Just a thought, but maybe diversify a little? Might teach you a thing or two about the capabilities and limitations of, you know, more than like 3-4 tanks…
Might also help a bit with that blinkered raging habit.
If you’re left feeling like a pinata in every game, you are playing German tanks way too far ahead in the front line, and likely way too aggressively at the start.
You’ve got 54% on the Tiger II. Neat. I’ve got 60.26%. Tiger I is even worse in this respect: you have 48%, I’ve got 65%.
Really, they aren’t that badly armored once you stop asking for everybody to take their best shot.
A collection of very good scouting replays can be found on ProScout at – tazilon.net.
There is a hall of fame for the best ones here tazilon.net/HoF/HoF.html
For example there is a VK2801 game with 2,922 xp, and an ELC game with 3,084 xp!
Hmm 2801 replay before nerf with 1.7 aiming time, 30% lower aiming spread, lower ground resistance, more armour, less weight + derp gold ammo with old 150pen? Now u must be very skilled and get low armouerd enemies to get 1200+ XP. Or camp in middle of malinovka with 468 viewrange to get 6k+ assisted dmg, but u can do this in any scout.
Yup and it’s Tazilon not the average player! The fact that puprle aces of a tank class do well in such tanks doesn’t mean those tanks are generally capable.
I do not see a reason for any different or open topped turrets to buff the view range. it is completely arbitrary value used for balance reasons. The devs could set it up to whatever value they want.
That being said, I see nothing against giving tier 8 lights as much as 450 base view range and greatly boost view ranges of lower tier ones. And that change alone would be sufficient. They would finally be true scouts used to give the team targets to shoot at and to feed back the info about enemy manoeuvres.
Would 450m be too much? No, not really. There is no reason why big heavy tanks should not be spotted at max view range in the open. They could be seen without any problems with naked eye anyway and no doubt the light tanks would be equipped with magnifying optics for the reconsecrate reasons too. The high view range would also allow to spot camoed enemies lurking in bushes. This would give the lights a chance to do their job without the need to suicide – and so they would stay alive longer, support the team more and give their drivers the feeling that they indeed contribute to the battle and not just die for the benefit of ungrateful top tiers.
Another thing is that without any changes but view range tier 8 scouts would suddenly be something to consider in clan wars, if only 1 or 2 were in the team. In well organised team the intel is everything and some specialised tanks would be in high demand.
Could the great view range be abused? No, not really. It could be used to great effect by skilled players – the high tier meta game currently is about view range anyways, and being able to spot someone and shoot him without being spotted is very advantageous of course. But then the max view range is capped at 445 meters anyway and nothing can be spotted beyond that range. There would be a hard limit then keeping the scouts from being OP. Also the way most maps are designed would mean restricted lines of sight in most cases further reducing the advantage. it would be then up to player’s skill to make the most of the view range given and not a simple drive-around-win matter.
Spot heavy tanks oin the open is a good idea. But that also means that you are denying tanks from moving on the battlefield. With the map changed 8.11 brought, maps have less routed that are hidden, making heavys pushing a flank no more than a xp pinata to those camping heavys/tds/mediums with better camo. I dont see how this will improve the gameplay. Sure campers behind bushes will get spotted you by scuts, but those tanks moving around will get spotted even easier than now, and how is that good? The solution then? Well get a spot with hard cover and go hull down and just sit and derp in your heavy/td and let all tanks moving in less covered areas be even bigger xp pinatas.
People alreaddy know bushed got nerfed in 8.6 so they use places where there are bushes + rocks so they can fall back and avoid return of fire and arty shells. How is this good? Moving on the battlefied in heavys is hard as it is nowdays, imagine if they got spotted easier what the consequences would be. Either 1: camp more, 2: play high tier mediums, 3: play tds and keep on camping. 4: play more arty since now poor suckers get spotted easier by scouts. ‘
Problem is general balance. You cant have a game with 4 classes excpecting synergie between them, not in the current state with newer tanks too effective across the board and with gold ammo. As it is now I tink if you have high personal skill and good crew skill you can make decent resuts consistently regardles of tank and class, but people are too lazy and want the easy route.
There is a reason light tanks lost their impact on battles during WW II.
Instead of buffing light tanks they should become a niche class.
Yes and no.
Due to technology limitations at the beginning of the war light tanks were used as first line fighters, because engineers back then could not build anything better. Later, as the tank designs evolved, lights were used for reconnaissance and support. They were really good at it. So good that in fact we still have equivalent of light tanks in modern armies. They are usually armed, wheeled all terrain vehicles but the principle is the same. It is ether to scout the enemy and come back in one piece or to suppress the enemy that has no anti tank weapons to fight back.
…except armoured cars were doing all that back in WW2 too. Main diff tended to be the tracked scouts were used more for “tactical” combat recon, by virtue of their better armour and firepower, while the wheelies tended to have near monopoly on long-range “deep” and “strategic” recon due to usually higher speed in reasonable terrain and orders of magnitude greater automotive reliability.
Realistically the closest thing we have to the light tanks of old nowadays – aside from the occasional actual relic of the class, such as the AMX-13s – in terms of actual capability tends to be IFVs, and *those* are in effect the bastard children of APCs and infantry tanks.
LT’s at the moment have problems in that other tanks cross over into their “speciality” Agility, Camo, and Viewrange.
These things have always meant firepower, Armor, and HP had been lower than the tanks they were facing.
But now that you have Mediums and TD’s running around with comparable agility, viewrange, and camo, lights are simply now “hard mode” mediums.
In a bid to avoid the constant power-creep. I think there should be a re-evaluation of most tanks viewranges and camo. Since LT’s almost always end up trying to spot for tanks that have a greater viewrange then their own.
If anyone is suggesting that they just need more camo and more firepower, then they just want to play a Medium or TD.
That is what people want. If all tanks would push a flank and not camp scouts would be useless because then tanks would spot eachother along the line. And this is a good thing because game gets dynamic. This sitting in “strategic positions” sniping spotted object is what makes the game a camping fest. I feel tanks moving gets punished too much. In my world, I think both heavys, mediums and tds should move on the battlefield much more and its time to fucking balance tanks that enhance this kind of gameplay. I can do this with my tds and heavy because I have them maxed out with crew skills, but it is really too hard. Campers get too rewarded in wot now days and this is what makes all tanks stay still and camp, and once spotted them move behind a rock avoiding return fire and arty shells.
Firepower and mobility is a golden match. Upgunning light tanks is therefore not a good idea. However, the only reason lights would need bette guns is because they get into +4 MM games. Get rid of scout MM and things look better already. The second improvement to be made would view range. If lights cannot get better view range, decrease view ranges for all other vehicles. Also, it would make sense to decrease view range for moving vehicles. You could then disregard that effect for lights.
If scouts will get regular mm they will have a slight view range advantage with current values.
So what THEY ARE SCOUTS for the spotters’ sake!!
And the artys are ARTYS, not able to 1 shot a heavys unless it hits ammo rack. Your point is what?
Take away 5% of the of view range from everyone except scouts would already be a big buff. And change the light mm a bit. A luchs in a tier 8 battle is in 99% of the cases dead weight.
Sorry, have to say this:
The T-50 is such an awful piece of garbage now.
It is actually way, way worse than the A-20.
Compare that to the Luchs and we can see what direction tier 4 lights should go:
Amazing mobility & maneuverability plus an effective gun and reasonable view & radio.
I think Ground Resistance is a big Problem… but may vary from LT to LT.
Lets take the french LT Line… Not because they are good Light Tanks but Players have to go trough them to reach Mediums.
AMX12t has such bad Ground Resistance that most T8 Meds have same speed and get to top speed faster.
Some T9 and T10 Hvy have the same speed of on soft Ground of ~40km/h
I say 40 and not 60 … because turning only slightly bleeds of speed like nothing else on the AMX12t. Speeding up needs unproportinal long time even with 100% crews. Going uphill too… seeing Meds just fling by on a slight hill is annoying.
On the other hand:
T59-16 … is better in Ground Resistance. Killing 1 Arty … on Tier9 and Ten.. takes more then one Magazin. So it is more like Buffing each one differently then just upping Ground Resistance or Camo.
59-16 can kill Arties up to 8 tier in one clip. Theoretically 9 as well but its hard because of dings. -> normal mm would avoid battles with only impenetrable tanks
Better matchmaking and mobility, problem solved.
No need for better guns and camo.
Not really since better MM will make some scouts OP in its tier. Also better mobilty, for what? Running around in a nooby ass with low skilled crew and no 6th sense?
I dont need any buff on LTs, but WG should redesign some maps that are difficult to play with LTs.
eg. Pearl River, Hidden Village
How do people expect to perform good with lights if they lack the basics? Light tanks are hard to play succesfull yes and their roles has changed since less artys are present. But I still believe that you can scout succesfullyif you have the right equipment, know the right spots, where and how to move and have good crew skills. I see very good scouts now and then running around beeing alive for the whole game but I think there are also dedicated scout players, just like there are dedicated TD, arty and medium players. They play only one class and do it damn good.
What is less good is these noob lights playing just because they want fast tanks. If you play light tenk and want to engage heavys and medium frontaly you are doing it wrong, and i often see light brawling with these tenk in close quarters, totally idiotic.
Buffing light will be a problem too since artys are slot worse now to defend themselves due to the bad accuracy and nerfed mobilty. So better light will make artys even weaker, which in return will decrease their amount even more.
People don’t play lights just because they want fast tanks. They play them because they have to, if they want to get a tank that is further down the tech tree.
One solution would be to separate light tanks from the other trees entirely, like with tds and arty. Throw in some favourable creds and exp coefficient to encourage people to play lights and we would have some solution. The problem is the lights would be even more rare to see and only elite players or very clueless potatoes would play them. And I don’t think wg wants to invest any effort into something almost no one would use :P
Same as with all other classes then? Only elites or idiots would play tds, heavys or mediums juding by the high amount of tomatos there are out there. Problem is, any scout tank buff will have affects and im not sure the community is prepared to this. Ask yourself what tanks will benefit from better scouts? As it is now it will be mobile tds with good camo and armor or heavy campers or mediums with gold ammo. I believe all tanks must be able to spot for them selves to a degree and not be too team indeoendant. Now days most tanks except light can do well solo, by spotting and making damage,. Nerf view range it will be harder to move because you wont see a shit. Im thinking from a heavy perspective, that cant rely on nothing but my gun and generally decent view range and little bit of camo (6th skill 76% camo).
This is a gameplay problem, some times you need to brawl, some times you nedc to cross big areas and some times in the open to make damage and xp. Theres a reason players that moves alot on the battlefield, and moving to the enemy and making damage has better xp and average stats. This is dynamic gameplay. Sitting and sniping relying on others to spot is static gameplay and wont do any good in the long run. Why make game more static to making tanks easier to be spotted by lights? If people playing campy now because they are affraid to get spotted, what do you think will happen if scouts get more effective? We cant make sure both teams get equal amout of scouts, and even if they do players will be of different skill. By making tanks spot themselves you dont need to rely on scout to make the spotting, which is good for the dynamic gameplay if you move around on the battlefield.
But I did not mention any buff at all there. Just a separation from other tech trees to make playing light tank a choice, not a necessity. I have also mentioned an increased reward of creds and exp for playing lights in their current form and with the current MM as an incentive to even bother playing them.
My main point was though that often lights are simply a grind-through and not a choice.
The majority of the problem is MM imo
take a look at those poor tier 4 scout that got killed over and over again in T8 match
(mainly 38nA A-20 and now nefted T-50)
Give em standard +2 MM but without chance to be top tier (Ex. the ELC will be in only tier 6 and 7 battle or T71 in 8 and 9 only)
as for tier 4 scout give them standard MM would be fine except some of them if they are deem OP
And buff the AufPanther while you at it or give it standard MM that thing is not a LT at all
Please no more firepower especially for 13 90. But the chinese ones and the german ones need it.
The camo is enough too maybe just a slight buff. They just need a bit more view range. And also mobility. I remember before the accuracy buff it was pretty hard to get a light running full speed and also I dodged a lot more shots when I played light. Now you can not active scout, if you get spotted you won’t even dodge once despite how fast you’re going.
Arty nerf didn’t kill lights. Accuracy buff did.
So you are saying that Chinese lights, armed with medium tank guns, need more firepower?
Yes the wz131 is somewhat adequate. But the tier 8 wz132 armament is awful. Bad penetration bad damage, even worse ROF. AND you have to research the same bad guns a million times.
More than 170 pen and 250 average damage is bad? The teir 8 T-44 medium has almost exactly those stats. Same with the T69. However, German lights do need a buff in armament. The derp is pretty bad now, even with HEAT. They should buff the HE pen to around 70, AP to around 80, and HEAT to around 115 to make it more competitive. Also, they should give the old top engine back, and un-nerf the top speed back to 72 again.
Lights should just be faster, lighter armoured and armed mediums. Forget the scout role, nobody uses lights to scout in CW any more, the mediums can do it at high tiers.
Problem will be balancing the likes of WZ131 and AMX13-90 into a normal mm spread.
How about making scouts immune to the 50 m auto spotting ( and no u would not hear him coming up to u in real life if your tank engine was on).
M551, it has the mobility and the firepower. Vickers 45569 T again has the firepower and mobility (light tank prototype for the Vickers MBT, 20-pdr gun, 64kmh). Either one could be a Tier 9 or 10 vehicle. France and China have Tier 8 lights and in the case of France, they could easily have a Tier 9/10 light tank in the AMX-13/105.
I don’t know if there are any possibilities for Japan for a Tier 8 (or 9/10) Light. Germany? There’s got to be something. There is the “KleinTiger”. Yeah, someone will jump on me for this. But the gun DOES make since if you’re trying to build something who’s job is to scout for your Tiger II and protect the flank and rear of your heavy tank battalions. It would replace the PzIII and PzIV in that role. That and by late-1944 there had already been a lot of city fighting. You can’t hit much above 1km in a town anyway. Last but not least, such a gun would have been cheaper, easier and quicker to build then conventional gun. (Really, the only think on the KleinTiger that makes sense is the gun).
As for the Russians. The real reason there is no Tier 9 or 10 light tanks and isn’t even a effort to get every nation a light tank up through Tier 8 is because there isn’t any good Russian light tanks that could even be Tier 7. And “if Russian can’t have best tank in game, no one can have tank in game!” The PT-76 is a post war Russian light, but it’s slow, has a crap gun and no armor. It would hardly make it as a Tier 6, much less Tier 7-10.
The “Kleintiger” is most likely the E-25 Auflakerer, a theory I wrote about here on FTR
I’d want that the match making for light tanks be more limited. The best example for a screwed up “light” is the AMX 40. I hate playing the AMX 40 although it is a good tank at its tier. What can it do against tier 7s or how the hell can it scout in the first place when it can barely reach 26 km/h!? Even fast light tanks are a pain to play in high tier battles.
So I generally do not play light scout tank, but I do enjoy the T-15. Because it has limited match making it’s speed and somewhat decent gun can both make a difference. It’s a better experience than the T-50.
AMX 40 doesn’t get scout match making. It is as much a “light tank” as the Valentine (ie, it’s a medium but they call it a light because its fairly small).
What the heck did I just read? Not all LTs have scout MM! T-15 having limited MM? It has the same freaking MM as all tier 3 LTs.
IMHO. To make LTs viable, most look to camo or viewrange, but I believe the answer lies in the most commonly overlooked mechanic: radio.
- Boost LT radio range
- Nerf the radio signalling and receiving range of every other type of tank except SPGs (which retain their receiving range).
- Radio information from all tanks except LTs cannot be relayed. (You must be within radio range to receive spotting information from the spotting tank unless that tank is an LT)
This way, HTs, MTs, and TDs can still spot within their immediate locality, but only LTs can spot for the entire team.
In other words punish all those tanks regardles of classes trying to move around and do their spotting them selves? Theres a thin line between making tanks too dependent on team play and a whole fucking campfest. The reason people are camping nowdays I believe is because they get outspotted by tds, mediums and other heavys behind cover.
I find this issue entertaining. First people want to make gameplay more dynamic, and then they want nerfs to prevent tanks soloing on the battlefield? You cant have it all.
Those other tanks can still spot for their team mates. They just can’t spot for that friendly TD on the other side of the map. Keep in mind that the distance from the target to the tanks that need spotting is the view range + radio range of the spotting tank. Given the map sizes, that’s pretty far.
At high tiers, nobody can ever be outside of radio range anymore. There is no longer a “fog of war”.
What I mean to point out is that LTs should have a dynamic that no other class can replicate. Mobility and camo are already out of the question given the limitations of gameplay. Radio mechanics however, can be tweaked to serve that purpose. Having a fog of war will also add/return an intended dynamic.
Well in that case, I can agree, making scouts spot targets for tanks that are even more far back. Seems reasonable. But then again, how will this make gameplay more dynamic, if scouts spot targets to that camping coward heavy/td far back?
The core problem is camping is a thing that is extremely annoying because it work very well as long as people are spotted and thats why people are camping I believe. In theory all a team need is good scouts and tanks at camping spots (to avoid return fire and arty shells) to whipe out a whole team pushing a flank. Or both teams can camp and make it a draw.
Dynamic gameplay will never be achiever unless people learn how to play actually, and in current situation, idiots and cowards benefit alot from these current mechanics because they cant sit all day long sniping with gold ammo in arty safe positions behind rocks, or they can move eith their superior camo rating, mobilty and armor, making it hard to hit them from the frist place.
The scout situation is nothing more than a core problem in game balance and I doubt any change to scouts will make game more dynamic. Unless all stats of tanks gets more equal, we wont achieve dynamic play because not all tanks benefit from dynamic gameplay to beginn with.
The roles of the tanks are totally washed out and it all began with 8.6 where tanks with bad armor and mobilty, but with better gun no longer could rely on enemies far away not hitting them due to less accuracy. Add the new tanks introduced with better armor, mobilty and guns, and you see many tanks becoime totally obsolete unless they have a killer crew and a dedicated player. I say it now, and I have said it before since 8.6 all tanks became TDs because now pretty much all tanks can sit behind 1-2b ushes, load gold ammo and derp moving objects. Add the 2nd line german TDs that makes the situation even worse. Some tanks totallty ignore the tank classes and balance to beginn with because they are played in such a way that they will get an advantage regardles iof situation (sitting artysave and snipe). Sure they can get flanked but by that time they have sniped so many and made the game a utter campfest that it doesnt matter if they get killed after 15 min of cowarding.
Thank you for the constructive reply and I agree with your observations. Camping is a collective psychological problem that cannot be addressed with just one solution. It certainly cannot be solved with better LT dynamics alone.
However, I am of the opinion that my suggestion on radio ranges helps discourage camping by forcing the camper to move when he is already outside of radio range of the lead tank and can no longer “see”. The allure of camping is being able to shoot without being shot at. If they can’t even see anything, and knowing that they will be able to see and shoot if they move just a bit forward, all but the most inept player would rather move… hopefully.
You know why I like this game? Because there is a variety of tactics viable. Some tanks allow for dynamic gameplay, others allow for a deliberate, tactical approach. it is up to you, the player, to choose the right approach for the situation. Tooling every single tank in the game for one tactic will make things very boring. A big cluster fuck with headless chickens running around is definitely not my cup of tea. I am no longer 12 years old.
Well, dynamic gameplay doesnt mean running around, you can play dynamic even with arty and TDs. Camping is another thig, that is by purpose dont wanna move your ass and exploit team mates spotting and dying because you are to bad to move to the fight. I played 3100 games with ferdie and never did I camp like tose tds and heavys we are seeing standing still on a fucking place/area 90% of the game.
And yes camping in its current state works as long as enemies are moving, but of both teams camp and play tactical, then it will be a draw or a very boring gameplay. Im not asking people to rush, but making tanks move more and support team mates at flanks is a must. For long range support there is arty.
The tactics are the same for all tanks really, make damage and try to avoiding taking damage, the differance is how you make it. Some time you got to back off quicker, and some times you got to go for it and take a few hits. Problem is now days one tactic that is too present is tanks, regardles of class siting and cowarding far back.
Some times I feel theres really no need to push a tlank with my heavy, because I dont have any backup wth me, but i do it anyways because I dont like static bullshit play. And here, a scout outspotting everyone so campers on enemy team can shoot us is a really bad idea.
Well we can hope that, but I doubt it would change much at all because theres no much preventing campers up to this point making 600 damage staying at the same area even if there are no tanks spotted.
Maybe I don’t get what you are trying to say, but:
You need to have “direct” radio contact with spotter even these days.
http://wiki.worldoftanks.com/Battle_Mechanics#Radio_Range
If you nerf radio range too much, you can have the same situation you have on tier 1 for example – going hill on Malinovka? You have no idea what’s going on at the base. You don’t see the enemies spotted there, neither your allies. Not exactly a good thing in tier 10 match, is it?
I think that one idea would be to remove the max view range of 445 meters and change it to somewhere in the 460-480 meter range for scouts only. This would allow scouts using optics and/or binos to get more advantage out of them. It would buff scouts. However, this does not address the balance problems that some of the teir 4 scouts face. For them, you would have to remove scout matchmaking. Most of the people playing teir 4 scouts frankly have no clue what they are doing and how to be in any way effective in a teir 8 battle, where the IS-3′s have better view range than them. Increasing their view range could be good as well.
You still dont see the problem. Making scouts spot objects more effective will only buff campers or team dependent players as they are now called. Sure that scout will get more spotting damage and all that, but who will that actually benefit? Sure damn not the tiger II trying to push a flank, but those tds and heavys refusing to move out of fear and cowardness sitting in semi safe spots.
Nowdays the majority of gameplay goes like this: 2/3 of the tanks take camping positions and the rest trying to push flanks and move on the battlefiled (me), which either resulting in them getting oustpotted and sniped or ambushed by more enemy tanks who just happen to push that flank or spot object for the team. What this means is that 1/3 of the team is actually playing dynamic, and the 2/3 playing static . This also means that playing a TD will make you benefit most from this gameplay or a stealthy heavy or a medium/autloader with gold ammo.
Maybe you’re just stupidly over-aggressive? A noob-rush shouldn’t be the most effective tactic in the game.
You call 1880 average dmg and 900+ xp and 56-57% wr for tiger II solo play and 6 skill crew nooby? Think again. Im not asking for rush, im asking for fucking tanks to move and support mates pushing. Big differance. A noob rush out and dont think, a dynamic player are moving along to engage the enemy carefully. A camper…simply camps no matter what.
RANDOMS.
Don’t expect *even* shit from random pubbie teams. Saves you a lot of diappointment.
You must expect some things to make the game enjoyable. As it is now certain types of gameplay and tanks makes it very enjoyable for people.
I don’t really see how persisting with Unrealistic Expectations at odds with the factual reality of the actual playerbase, and the due resultant disappointements, would make the game enjoyable. Rather sounds like a recipe for frustration.
Personally I consider it a stroke of good luck if my team happens to demonstrate even tolerable degrees of competence.
Yes. Yes I am. Because you’re expectations are noobishly unreasonable. Today I made the mistake of expecting backup from an IS8 on Severoborsk. I was in a Cent 7/1 and I spotted a FV4202 in some buildings. Both I and the IS8 were heading towards it, so I went around the other side. I wasn’t worried about the FV facing me because it was going to get an ass full of 122mm gun at less then 50m. Or so I thought. I came around the building, fire, the FV fired. The IS8 fired once, missed and then started sniping at a TD across the map. Though I didn’t realize it. The FV then drove around the building, in full view with it’s side to the IS8. So I drove around and blocked it, keeping it were the IS8 could get rear shots on it. Needless to say I died because I didn’t know the IS8 was a 17k battle 44% WR doosh.
So yeah, you’re a effing noob to think other players will support you and move up and you should know better by now (as I should too).
I know, but rather push than staying back like a coward. Even if i make less kills and damage my xp and eff is still higher because im closer to enemy and fighting. Thats also important. The more far back you are unless u make massive damage the lower xp you get, simple. And the lower cp you get the less respect you get from me and many others.
>Nowdays the majority of gameplay goes like this: 2/3 of the tanks take camping positions and the rest trying to push flanks and move on the battlefiled (me)
>Drives a KT all the time
>I’m the only one pushing
D:
Oh god.
You do not get the meta, do you. Just because tanks stop at first contact, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re camping.
More importantly, please – I hope you’re not pretending that KT is just like an IS-3, because it’s most definitely not. German heavies assaulting at the start of a match is risky and worse, wasteful of the King Tiger’s talents. You’re a rifleman wearing a plate carrier , not a brawler.
There are few reasons why LT’s are now crap. Most important among them:
1. Nerfed arty. Previously just showing enemy for a moment meant 4-5 arties will shoot at it (hitting or not), now showing enemy means 1 or 2 arties will start aiming but the target will disappear before arties will aim fully and you need to show the target again.
2. Changed maps. Maps are less flat so there is no point spotting too far (no one will be able to shoot enemies behind the ridge) and when enemy is in the field of fire of friendly tanks, they can spot it themselves.
3. Lessened shell dispersion, tanks are way more accurate so scouts live shorter.
There are 2 most annoying factors when playing light tanks:
1. Not being able to do anything.
There are few tanks with great gun/autoloader (t71, 13-90) that are a formidable as flanker, but most LT can only bounce few time hoping that enemy will turn to them and start chasing them. LT themeslves die horribly fast.
Solution: reduce their matchmaking to be the same or similar to other tanks of the same tier.
2. Not being rewarded properly.
Everyone who tried to grind IS-6 with 59-16 will know :D
You drive ahead and bait enemy to open fire on you. Immediately he lits up and gets killed – but the moment he shot, he was seen by everyone, so no assist points for you.
You annoy enemy making him come out from behind the rock and be killed by your teammates. No assist bonus.
You drive around the enemy damaging him and forcing him to turn uselessly until he dies. With 20 shots, 10 penetrations you make 800 damage.
TD camping in the bush the whole battle with 1 shot makes 900 damage and ends the game with 1 base experience more then you pushing you out of the top 10 by experience.
Solution? lower environment camo, lower view range of ALL tanks (especially tds) except light tanks, increase light tanks camo, increase terrain passability for LT’s give credits/exp coefficients for assisted damage for LT and so on.
What personally annoy me most, is that effective scouting is impossible on most maps (himmelsdorf, ensk) and charging first means usually glorious but useless death.
So what you have to do is stay behind, look for an opening, wait to see where you can go, deal some damage and retreat – sort of faster, softer and undergunned medium. Light tanks can make a difference only in the later part of battle, when there is less tanks on both sides.
So I stay behind (not camping in the bush, but probing, then retreating and changing flank) – and in the middle of the battle some tomato teamkills you “because you don’t do your job”
What makes you think a scout with better view range in return get spotted and sniped by TDs far back, due to the radio coverage of the tanks? TDs will 1 shot and take off massive amount of HP of any tanks once it gets spotted regardles. On the other hand, if tanks cant see the enemies you are spotting, whats the point then?
It’s really not that hard. On the game level, get rid of the silly “scout MM” rule for LT’s. Introduce new LT at every tier with standard MM spread. No need for more camo. No need for more view range. No bigger guns. All those things will upset the balance of the game and lead to more camping.
At the player level, properly reward LT’s when they do what they’re suppose to do…. scout and spot the enemy. Change the API so that spotting damage is broken out and properly reported. This will help recognize good scout players. This will encourage players to improve their game and not just sui-scout. Too many players don’t know how to play LT. There are players who do know, and they continue to thrive playing LT’s, even today. Need to encourage players to learn and understand how to play LTs.
Problem is Wargaming philosophy is “you don’t like the tank – don’t play it”. Since there is no clear formula how to balance speed and camo towards other tanks they simply put light tanks into high tier battles balancing… towards each other. Just like arty before when they finally after a year or two noticed that arty influence on battle is too high (cause arty was only balanced towards each other) in case of lights its same but reverse – typically lights influence on battle is close to none. It’s just due to map design. Currently 30 sluggish tanks is bad amount on 1km map square. No field for cleaver flanking etc because everywhere are tanks. Bigger maps would make distance too far for most of the tanks.
To improve lights gameplay i suggest:
- Deployment after 1-2 min battle start so even if we would see mindless rushing forward other tanks would be on position to shoot at anything
- Balance them for NORMAL MM, not +4 tier in assumption they are crucial for win.
- Special terrain on maps where NO tanks apart from lights and meds (but way slower) can get. Problem of not resolved battles? Why? For that purpouse there are flag objectives – hiding won’t change anything. For example there is a little advantage on Malinovka when a single AMX gets on hill first…. typically… what for? Even if he spots enemy tanks approaching basicly on randoms people are hardly responding to map changes or it’s to late to ride to next map corner.
- TDS got way bigger view range…
Overall i find lights not that good due to maps being wrongly designed. Dynamic is set just for IS-3 acceleration :/ But we all know IS-3 is a reference tank for WG :/
Well, its a huge problem with general balance. Why else would they introduce more and more tanks from early 70s-80s that has more advanced guns and better mobilty die to thinner armor, but more well sloped = better effectrive armor. Not only light are weak but all older tanks pretty much. Just look at the map changes that was made in 8.11. Now some maps are even more flat and open making fast mediums with trollish armor the only thing to play.
“more and more tanks from early 70s-80s”
Right, how about you stop making shit up.
Look at majority of newer tanks they are not from the 30-40s and they are simply better in all stats as well as WR according to noobmeter and vbaddict.
List all the “early 70s-80s” tanks in the game.
Now.
To speak nothing of the hilarious inaccuracies in the rest of your post. What part of the Waffleträggers or the assorted early- to mid-war Soviets or the bulk of the Jap rice cookers are “not from the 30s-40s” pray tell?
All higher tier japanese yellow tenks are from the 50-60s i believe, at least.
STA-1 at T8 is from mid-Fifties, yes. The STB-1 entered service in the mid-Seventies as the Type 74, fair enuff, but in practice wasn’t exactly cutting edge for the period – FWIW teh Wiki describes it as roughly as capable as the Leo 1 and M60 Patton which had been in active service for at least a decade by that point.
In other words, kind of the same thing as with the Chinese; date of introduction don’t mean squat if the vehicle is effectively at least a decade out of date at the time.
On another note, I think I’ve seen like 3 or so STBs total since the thing was added. Symptomatic I daresay.
So, hey. Still waiting for all those “tanks from early 70s-80s”…? Or will you just owe up to a ridiculous hyperbole?
very waiting
much surprise
wow
Scout tanks need to get better compensated for assistant damage!
i hate to spot 1/3 of the enemy health loss in my Chaffee , die and lose credits or brake even in credits. i don’t get it….(with a standard account)
The only changes that need to be made are..,.
1) get arid of Scout Matchmaking
2) add Scouts to every tree up to Tier 8, if not 9 and 10.
Most of the current Scout Tanks wouldn’t need to be changed at all. The T21 isn’t OP at Tier 6. In fact most light tanks are balanced well at their tiers. No massive “nerf light tonks!” would be needed.
If the Russians can’t find good light tanks why not use the ASU series. The ASU-57 would make a nasty passive scout. And as for the Germans, the K-JagPz 4/5 would make a good scout. I mean, the E-25 is already a decent scout.
The T21 and T71 are both extremely good scout tanks, although all scout tanks have big camouflage problems. Their guns and mobility are extremely good already.
Then start training fucking camo on ann crews and use camo paint and camo net and train bia to get extra benefit. Because players dont wanna use premium account and get more xp and train crew skills, its their problem.
I agree with you, light tank crews need to have 100% camo. but it takes too long to get to 100% :( ~240 battles at least…way too long :(
positive note , Once at 100% the commander gets converted to sixth sense.
:)
…
I’m a premium player.
More importantly, I’m a premium scout player. You imply I’m not INCLUDING camo skill, paint, and every other piece of kit required to make scouts freaking viable. No matter what, a scout tank within 300 meters WILL get spotted if he is audacious enough to leave a track link hanging on the periphery of a bush.
Just to make it painfully clear, in my estimation, you cannot play a scout tank with a crew that does not have 70-100% camo skill finished and expect to do anything. It just does not work when so much rides on your intuitive understanding on camouflage, distance, and spotting mechanics to be a good scout. If you do not know any of this, or if you cannot understand your limits of detection, you will not scout. Period.
Pls nerf all light tenks. I mean artys and TDs got nerfed, now light must also be nerfed to close the circle, right?
No, they don’t need to be nerfed.
What needs nerfing is Heavy Tanks. There are way more of them played in game then every existed. If you look at the ratios of Medium to Heavies build, you’ll see that far more “balancing” is needed.
Then why did WG nerf arty when they werent even close to the amount of TDs and heavys nowdays?
The scout tanks themselves are fine, the only problem is the MM since now there is less arty to spot for and kill.
All scout tanks should have their MM spread reduced by 1. This has already been done for tier 8 scouts by virtue of them getting rid of tier 12, but it has remained ridiculous for others. Tier 6 scouts, unless the player is VERY competent, usually cannot get much done in a tier 10 match. All they do 80% of the time is give the enemy team a free kill.
So basically, here’s what should be changed.
- Tier VIII scouts stay the same, i.e. can see tiers 9-11.
- Tier VII capped at 10, minimum of 8
- Tier VI capped at 9, minimum of 7
- Tier V capped at 8, minimum of 5 or 6 depending on the tank
- Tier IV capped at 7, minimum of 4.
This gives the scouts an opportunity to serve larger vehicles while also not being useless.
Imma ussless in arty if no tenks spotted, pls make all tenk spotted all time end buff mi pls :(.
Scouts also spot for tanks other than artillery, assist in map control, and do some of their own damage to regular tanks.
Other than that, reducing their MM seems like a decent idea. I personally thought capping tier V scouts to 7 would be a good, but cheap method to fix the problem at the cost of considerable challenges to overcome.
Your a dedicated scout player, you dont make any sense in the world of casuals…
No, I’m not. I’ve got more games in my E-50 and Tiger P than any of my scouts.
yeah perfect!
“….
- Tier VIII scouts stay the same, i.e. can see tiers 9-11.
- Tier VII capped at 10, minimum of 8
- Tier VI capped at 9, minimum of 7
- Tier V capped at 8, minimum of 5 or 6 depending on the tank
- Tier IV capped at 7, minimum of 4.
…”
Dropping tier 12 does not impact Tier VIII Scouts much at all. They face exactly the same tanks as they did before the drop.
I think there should be more firepower. I support Gunboating –> fast (not necessarily light) vehicles with big guns, eg. ELC, Hellcat, KV1S)
Lol more firepower what for? isnt the powercreep bad enough alreaddy? Hellcat, kv1s and elc too good guns and tenk for their tier, must be nerfed pls.
>powercreep
>Hellcat, kv1s
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA srsly how the *fuck* are tenks that’ve been in the game virtually from the *start* symptomatic of powercreep?
Because they shoot and kill him.
A valid point.
Ive read all your replies to previous comments, and tbh you’re simply butthurt because you cant cope with the mew changes to the game. Why do you keep nagging about our tiger II not being able to play dynamically ? It’s a heavy tank. It has a role. LIKE LIGHT TANKS DO. This is not a team game for no reason. You want lights to lose their role as scouts, well here’s a hint buddy the way the game should be played is that no heavy should ever be able to cross a field UNLESS a light is securing its way. You wanna argue that this is game-breaking and that it encourages camping ? Would you cross a field in a tier 10 game with a self spotting fv 183 on the opposite team (this is a rhetorical question) ? Lights have a role and they’re a hard class to play, especially since they are underpowered currently due to various factors (view-range, acc increase etc.) but a well played scout is game-changing, even while nerfed. Although theoretically scouts cant carry game due to what they provide to their player, a good scout will “carry” games (tomatoes are tomatoes, but give them targets to shoot at and they will eventually hit it). The viable solution imho is to provide better view range for scouts, as well as a fix to their mm, making a tier 7 scout suitable for a tier 7 game etc. and op lights for their tiers would then be moved up to higher tiers. Now stop nagging and being that aggressive, and try to cope with the gameplay
You basically want light tanks to remain as they are in terms of camo and agility (which are crappy considering the other classes’ view range and the acc buff) and you want to nerf their firepower. Well, you might as well introduce cars into wot, running around without being able to shoot. Think about what you’re saying before stating illogical facts and raging pointlessly.
One more thing. There’s sixth sense for a reason.
Lol 6th sense? You dont always have good cover while moving and need to move in dangerous areas. Stop talking bullshit. Better scouts will make campers kill all tanks which are moving now days. Imo remove scouts and OP tds ffs and make players staing still for more then 10 seconds lose credits and xp.
You make no sense whatsoever mate, with a scout covering you you dont need to worry about cover, which is my point. And if you move through dangerous areas with no caution or care whatsoever, youre clearly doing it wrong, that’s why -again- you need scouts. And about campers killing all moving tanks, spotted campers are dead campers arent they ? Can a heavy spot them ? No. You need a light tank for that, which is why they need a buff.
You just wont accept any game synergy would you ? You want the game to adapt for you, you wont adapt with the game, tds got nerfed, maybe not enough (talking about the hesh fv and the wt) but it’s still something. Their camo faculties after gun firing are also gettig nerfed, and thats a huge nerf to camping tanks, and it makes them even easier to spot and kill, and yet you nag about tier 8 scouts. Tbh if you meet tier 8 scouts in a tiger 2 youd probably be in a tier 10 game, and that scout would be the least of your concerns compared to what other tanks there are on the enemy team. If you cant manage to cope with the game, stop playing it. Plain and easy
“– and make players staing still for more then 10 seconds lose credits and xp.”
Drink OR post, mmmmkay?
Yes pls ban all player standing still for 2 seconds.
Six sense for LT/scouts and soft medium tanks only… huge re-balance completed.
You are joking? This will probably make heavys and tds camp even more out of fear to be shoot. Also soft mediums, lol since when does armor count for anything in the “golden ages”.
Fucking light and medium pussies ruin the game. You nerfed arty and now TDs and now you will nerf all other tanks again. You alreaddy nerfed heavys in 8.6 by nerfing their pen and artys as well.
Heavytard needs a chill pill nao.
Lol heavytards? Then what do you play, barbie online? Faggot…
What *I* play is more than Kingtiger and Ferdinand. Better than you do either, for that matter.
More importantly I don’t cry and whine about, quote, fucking light and medium pussies ruining the game, unquote, like a textbook 45er tard who can’t fathom why he doesn’t pwn everything under the virtual sun in his stronk heavies.
The accuracy buff killed light tanks. It is next to impossible to make the wild run behind the lines to kill arty as tanks will snap shot you at 200 meters, even if you zig-zag.
The accuracy buff killed all tanks you could say because they can no longer rely on enemies far away not hitting their weakspots….russian tens cough cough tehehe.
Yeah you would know.
I would because I often played tanks like that. Tell my your gametag pls so i can see ur stats, ur joke.
Unlike some I use the exact same nick here as in WoT for common courtesy. And no you would not, given your dossier which I have open in another tab right at this moment. How about actually trying firsthand how reliably something like the D-25 can *actually* hit weakspots and shit? (BL-9 and above don’t NEED to aim for weakspots to wreck the stuff you drive to begin with.)
One simple way to increase the Leopard Scout’s MK103 firepower is to do one of two things – Increase the ROF, or make the gold shells standard.
My inner Abrams will be waiting for the second.
But in all honesty, my bigger problem is that the leo doesn’t have enough survivability for what it does. The MK103 is perfect enough for what it does at tier 5, the problem is what it has in terms of mobility and stealth: it’s barely enough to work with.
Now, if WG likes the current amount of spotting scouts make, they can buff some of the underperforming guns and I’d be happy. But, I think that goes against what scouts should be about : spotting, reconnaissance, and skirmishing.
However, I do think, with the exception of the VK2801 and maybe the Alphabet panther, that scouts at tier 6 and higher are moderately problematic, but do not have it as bad as tier 5 and 4 scouts.
I didn’t have a wordpress account so I created one in order to prehaps contribute something to this discussion.
I would like to mention than I am just an average player who has played the french light tank branch.
- As people mentioned, the need for buffs and nerfs should be evaluated on an individual basis.
- To me the AMX 13 90 seems to be just doing fine (for me) and really doesn’t need a buff.
- I considered the following option: there is an other problem WG is struggeling with, Sixth Sense. Perhaps this perk could be made exclusive to scouts. Since they are the most vulnerable tanks out there they benefit the most. I really feel this perk is overpowered on my FOCH (and equally so on other heavily armored tanks) when I get informed when to hide since I have way more HP then in a scout.
This could solve a part of the problem, but it will probably not be sufficient, additional options are:
- Removing TD camo buff when firing
- Increase mobility/agility of scouts
- Decreasing ground resistance of scouts
- Increasing health pool of scouts
- Improving on the move accuracy of scouts
This last option is mainly of importance, since this means that scouts can keep moving easier while they shoot. This makes them harder to hit targets. This has become an issue since the accuracy buff made shooting before fully aiming or at larger distances more viable. This mainly had a negative influence on the survivability of small and/or far away targets in my experience.
Hope my first post on FTR was constructive! And keep up the good work SS!
I would say that the first thing to do is to get rid of the anachronistic light tank matchmaking. It does nothing for the game, nothing at all.
Secondly, increase the viewrange of lights relative to other tanks of their tier.
Then see how that works out.
More camo more view range? Seriously, Light Tanks will be the best tanks in game if only not for their lack of HP and firepower. Light tanks move without losing their camo, they can get to bush and be pretty hard to detect.
More view range and better camo for lights would make them imbalanced.
How about calling in arty/airstrike from off map?
Or allow scouts to mark enemy tanks making teammates aim faster, and more accurate.
I real life scout tanks didn’t have much of a advantage on the battle field vs a medium tank. Most the advantage lied in manufacture cost and mobility (they were a lot easier to get to the battlefield and away). How you reflect this ingame? Have scout tanks respawn once/twice maybe?
3 fixes solve the problems with Scouts:
1) Scouts should be at least 7 km/h faster than the tanks they face on the battlefield. Speed = life for Scouts but when Arty, TDs, and Mediums all go faster than Scouts the entire system is horribly out of whack. Scouts that fihgt Tier Xs should go 72 (level ground). That still allows tanks like the Bat Chat to keep their 65 km/h level ground top end. Other non-scout tanks going >65 should be adjusted downwards to 65. The top speed would scale down for lower tiers.
2) Scouts should have the longest View Ranges of the tanks they face. At least 20m more. There is historical context for this. Scout tanks did NOT scout. They were fast tanks attached to recon units to provide overwatch for the REAL recon vehicles such as the Jeep and Puma. Giving them the longest View Ranges in the battle tiers they fight would simulate the recon units to which they were attached.
3) Fix camo – it is currently broken. Environmental camo is currently a joke. Most bushes block light; thus bushes block sight. It doesn’t matter whether you park a tank, a baby or a house behind a large bush; if the bush is wide and tall enough to cover the object behind, you can’t see it. Put that back in the game. Then quit giving TDs and certain Mediums unrealistic. It is harder to hide a big chunk of metal than a small chunk of metal. Camo values should reflect that.
4) Quit destroying scout capability on new maps and updates to maps. Hills keep getting lower, bushes keep disappearing or getting smaller, rocks keep disappearing or getting smaller. Scout unfriendly maps are fine but give us some more scout friendly maps, too!
And leave MM alone. Tier +4 is fine if you restore the class distinction between lights and mediums.
Seconded.
For a note. Matchmaking is a drastic change which does reduce the challenge of scouting, which could prompt more scout nerfs, not buffs. It might work for tier 4 and 5, but the rest probably will be more trouble to balance than the advantage is worth.
3 fixes to Scouts and 1 to Maps solve the problems with Scouts:
1) Scouts should be at least 7 km/h faster than the tanks they face on the battlefield. Speed = life for Scouts but when Arty, TDs, and Mediums all go faster than Scouts the entire system is horribly out of whack. Scouts that fight Tier Xs should go 72 (level ground). That still allows tanks like the Bat Chat to keep their 65 km/h level ground top end. Other non-scout tanks going >65 should be adjusted downwards to 65. The top speed would scale down for lower tiers.
2) Scouts should have the longest View Ranges of the tanks they face. At least 20m more. There is historical context for this. Scout tanks did NOT scout. They were fast tanks attached to recon units to provide overwatch for the REAL recon vehicles such as the Jeep and Puma. Giving them the longest View Ranges in the battle tiers they fight would simulate the recon units to which they were attached.
3) Fix camo – it is currently broken. Environmental camo is currently a joke. Most bushes block light; thus bushes block sight. It doesn’t matter whether you park a tank, a baby or a house behind a large bush; if the bush is wide and tall enough to cover the object behind, you can’t see it. Put that back in the game. Then quit giving TDs and certain Mediums unrealistic camo values. It is harder to hide a big chunk of metal than a small chunk of metal. Camo values should reflect that.
4) Quit destroying scout capability on new maps and updates to maps. Hills keep getting lower, bushes keep disappearing or getting smaller, rocks keep disappearing or getting smaller. Scout unfriendly maps are fine but give us some more scout friendly maps, too!
And leave MM alone. Tier +4 is fine if you restore the class distinction between lights and mediums.
PS: While loosely based on historical vehicles, WOT is NOT a historical game. Recognize that fact and put game balance above “history”.
What about reversing whole concept of light tanks game play? T32 with optics has the same view range as scouts with optics, it can spot in strong hull down positions so why not to use this HT as scout when needed and there are not many SPGs in game? I’m always trying to do that and it works quite well. It just relies on turret armor instead of bushes or camo and presence is the weapon if someone tries to shoot at you and reveals his position.
So what about making light tanks somewhat superior mediums with low HP and better soft stats that are more jack-of-all-trades rather than scouts? Chaffee nearly fits there, I always prefer it to Comet (not mentioning KV13) and tier X-XI battles are good balance factor that prevents extreme win rates.
I think that every tank should not focus only on it’s role and dealing damage, but do whatever is needed … that’s why I don’t want pure scouts that can hardly harm any enemy tanks and I’m not against overlap of roles.
Scouting is limited to few maps and/or certain stage of battle in my opinion to have special class of tanks for that imho.
Because HISTORICALLY – and Wargaming loves to cite history – Scout tanks were lights attached to Recon units for overwatch and fire support.. The actual recon vehicles were Jeeps, Pumas, etc. A recon unit could view more than a Medium. World of Tank Destroyers should reflect this. The recon UNIT is simulated via the Scout tank.
For example, according to Richard C. Anderson, Jr., Chief Historian at the The Dupuy Institute (a non-profit organization which researches armed conflict) , a US recon unit in WWII consisted of a mix of M5s, M24s, M8 armored cars, Jeeps and a few M8 HMC assault guns.
The armored cars and Jeeps did the actual scouting while the Lights tanks and other support forces tried to keep the M8 armored cars and Jeeps alive and out of danger.
Wargaming can (and should) easily simulate historical recon units by giving Scout tanks the best View Ranges. If history is truly their goal, then their course of action seems clear.
Imo, removing scout class of tank altogether would be fine.
High tier mediums can do anything(and they should; because it’s more fun and takes more skill to be proficient at everything).
Keep current mid-tier scouts and remove that shitty Awfulpanther… then tighten the mid-tier scout(Chaffee…etc.) mm while downgrading them back to tier V level instead of artificially perform like tier VI.
All the high tier scouts from China and France are fine; keep them light tank(perhaps with a little more hp?) as they contribute to battle well enough; they will be fine once mm is tightened to normal tank level.
Especially WZ-132; it has better gun than same tier mediums of China.
That way lights can still scout; but are able to have way more opportunity to deal damage(shift to more damage-dealing role but still very much scouting-capable) due to not seeing more than 2 tiers higher.
And noobs won’t be whining about seeing tier 8 in tier 4… and we will also have less failplatoon. EVERYONE WINS.
Normalise tiers as was done with arty seems easiest and most practical way. Add a couple tiers in 2 gaps and must be better situation than current, and also simpler for new players so no more sniper PzNA’s who don’t understand they are scouts.
View range change suggestions would break all the maps/tactics in circulation and that cannot be an elegant enough solution.
(though 0.2 second graduations in how fast sixth sense lights up might be nice. scouts fastest then meds then rest equal maybe?)
another idea, increase the health on a scout the higher the tier he is playing in !!!
I think that lights were ok as they were 1 year ago and that every issue they now have is pure WG blame for making clueless unneeded changes.
My suggestions? Just undo changes, eliminate nerfs and new tanks, and take back the old ones.
“The maximum view range in WOT is 420m and reserved to open-top vehicles,”
With exception of the M48 Patton, apparently.
Silly me, I thought Patton topped at 400m…
Make light tanks as faster, more agile mediums with better camo (T71 or Chaffee are not far from E25, T49 Hellcat, T20 and perhaps T54 or batchat – I have to use coated optics to spot these mediums first) and give them option to snipe as effective as RhmB or E 25. It makes no sense to limit these tanks to spotting which is limited to few maps and/or certain stage of battle. For example E25 has so crazy camo and speed that it can scout almost as efficiently as T71 with much better MM and damage dealing capability and I dont care playing Hellcat as passive scout on maps where visual control is crucial.
I like Chaffee as it is with it’s matchmaking and uniqueness – please hands off. It’s hard to play, but it is very versatile tank that can scout and can help to solve some problems where needed in less than minute. I just don’t understand that WG introduced E25 that can take similar role with better MM, income and different ways to kill enemies.
In my opinion every tank with good view range should use it and T32 works pretty well for example (spotting TDs in hull down position can win the game – 2500spot, 2500dmg and 7000 recieved is better than dealing 4000dmg and letting team mates die)
I don’t see the need for more firepower. If you want more firepower get a Med not a light.
What I would do is make the Bins and Camo kick in earlier (after 1 or 2 secs) not 3 This would change passive play a lot and give them an edge over meds.
They could alos have coated optics as standard equip on the T6+scouts, freeing a module so you could take bins on t aT71 for example.
Not sure how the 420m = open top rule came down from the gods on stone tablets, if they need to up their view range just do it.
The way I see it, the best buff to scouts would be bigger maps and increased rendering range. Right now, on current cramped, three-lane maps it’s almost impossible to find a way of approach that wouldn’t be covered by the enemy team. And even if you do manage to spot someone, very often your team can’t fire because the enemy is just a few meters from rendering range.
Anyone asking for more firepower, camo, or mobility is a total noob.
If LT’s were bad they would not be ‘competitive’ tanks. I know how much all of you bads hate e-sports, want nothing to do with e-sports, and are going to argue esports (and smaller team sizes) have nothing to do with pubs, but the fact is LTs are competitve. Not just at tier 8 (hey, surprise, the only two tier 8 lights in the game both see lots of action in tournaments) but scouts of ALL tiers are competitive. Did you play CW campaigns? T5-T6 lights were used extensively.
Stop being bad.
The way to help light tanks would be to fix their arbitrarily raised MM. Make their spread the same as every other type of tank. Problem solved. I’d be down for T10 lights too, but if there’s no suitable candidates then so be it.
CW != Public battles. MLG players != the entirety of the player base.