Tiger Tales: The VK 45.02 P1 and P2 – the engines

By CaptianNemo

Zarax covered the tank itself in the previous article – let’s look at the engines…

There are several engines proposed for the Type 180/181(P1/P2). The Type 180 is the design with the forward turret and the Type 181 is the design with the rear mounted turret. The following 4 engines in 5 designs were proposed for the VK 45.02 P1 and P2 designs.

Proposed for VK 45.02 (P1) Type 180A (2x engines)

Type 101/3 Simmering-Graz-Pauker (115mm x145mm) 15.06L(Sometimes labeled 101/3A)
V-10 300hp@2000 rpm
V-10 350hp@3200 rpm
Air cooled Gasoline
72 degree V-10.
Gasoline-Electric
600mm wide tracks.(Other books say they were 640mm)

Proposed for VK 45.02 (P1) Type 180B (2x engines)

Type 101/4 Porsche (115mm x145mm) 15.06L
V-10 300hp@2000 rpm
V-10 350hp@3200 rpm
Yet 670hp total hp is listed for the combined hp in Special Panzers.
Air cooled Gasoline
72 degree V-10. 6.4 to 1 compression.
Gasoline-Electric
600mm wide tracks.(Other books say they were 640mm)

The Type 101/4 is identical to the 101/3 with improved compression ratios (6.4 to 1) and new materials for pistons and connecting rods and an new method for mounting the oil-cooler in the tank, but otherwise identical.

Proposed VK 45.02 (P2) Type 181A Design (2x engines)
Type 101/4 Porsche (115mm x145mm) 15.06L
V-10 300hp@2000 rpm
V-10 350hp@3200 rpm
Yet 670hp total hp is listed for the combined hp.
Air cooled Gasoline
72 degree. 6.4 to 1 compression.
Voith II Hydraulic-Electric drive.
700mm wide tracks.

Proposed VK 45.02 (P2) Type 181B Design (2x engines) (Engine already in game but not correctly named)

Type 180/1 Porsche-Deutz
16 cylinder engines (110mm x 130mm) 19.6L (Likely a V-16 but I have not confirmed this)
370@2000 rpm (740hp total in some sources)
Diesel engine but Cooling is unknown atm as not much is written about it.
Voith II Hydraulic-Electric drive.
700mm wide tracks.

Proposed VK 45.02 (P2) Type 181C Design (Single engine design)

Type 203 Porsche / Simmering-Graz-Pauker (Engine also labeled Type 180/2 or Type Sla 16 Motor)
X-16 (135mm x 160mm) 36.5L Weight 2000 kg/2250 kg
X-16 700hp@2000 rpm
X-16 760hp@2500 rpm
Air cooled Diesel Fuel-injection and Turbocharged.
Voith II Hydraulic-Electric drive.
700mm wide tracks.

As you might recall, Zarax also mentioned a 900 horsepower design that was a Diesel and Air-Cooled. This presents a bit of a problem… Mostly because it is unlikely that Porsche would turn to Argus with their 800 hp air cooled 16 or 12 cylinder engine and, because of the timing, the Argus engine was likely not even on the design board at the time, in fact it was never, as far as any reports I have run across, built. There was an air-cooled diesel from Argus-MAN planned for the VK 30.02(MAN) and intended for the Panther II and it was prototyped and tested in Nuremberg and Berlin in 1944. Which happens to be far too late to be the 900 hp engine.

Proposed VK 30.02(MAN) & Panther II
Type LD 220 Argus-MAN
H-16 (135mm x 165mm) 37.8L
700hp @ 2200 rpm
Air-Cooled Diesel. 4-cycle engine.

What is left is a series of Diesel, Air-Cooled, engines developed in Vienna Austria by Porsche and Simmering-Graz-Pauker until Porsche went out on its own with development of air-cooled diesels in August of 1943. The first up is the Type 203(Type 180/2) but that has been previously covered. What was not mentioned was that the original Type 203 was a plan was to produce an X-18 engine under the Type 203 name. The Type 203 X-18 was bored the same as the X-16 at 135mm bore, by 160mm stroke, and was 41.2 liters in displacement producing 780 hp at 2000 rpm which means that it is possible that the engine could have produced the 900 hp with some work at 2500-2600 rpms.

Proposed for Maus
Type 203 Porsche / Simmering-Graz-Pauker
X-18 (135mm x 160mm) 41.2L Weight ~2250 kg (guess)
X-18 780hp@2000 rpm
Air cooled Diesel Fuel-injection and Turbocharged.

Proposed for Maus October 5 1942
Type 205/2 Porsche
41.5L 780hp@2000 rpm
Air cooled Diesel Fuel-injection and Turbocharged.

This is also where it gets confusing with design names. Walter J. Spielberger mentions an engine for the Maus “Type 205/2” that is nearly the same displacement as the Type 203 X-18 but with the same hp output and rpm and the key here is the planned date upon which the engine was suggested… October 5 1942. Which means the design was at least existent at the time of the VK 45.02 P development and testing as 3 VK 45.02 P’s were in testing at at Nibelungenwerk in February 1943 with the serial production of VK 45.02 P’s being canceled in November 1942.

The final possibility, unlikely, is another X-16 design engine. Instead of having 2.3L per cylinder it has 3L per cylinder and enlarges the design from 36.5L, on the (Type 203(Type 180/2)), to a massive 48 liter displacement.

Proposed for Maus and Tiger II as part of the HL 230 Replacement Program.
Type 212 Porsche
X-16 (150mm x 170mm) 48L Weight 2500 kg
X-16 1500hp@ukn rpm
Air cooled Diesel Fuel-injection and Turbocharged.

As extensive redesign would have been required to put the Type 212 Porsche into a Tiger II and the fact that it produces way more power than 900 hp, it seems unlikely. The Type 203 X-18 is the likeliest of the options although it was considered a failure which is why the X-16 Type 203(Type 180/2) design exists in the first place and why the Type 212 design exists as a later development of the Type 203(Type 180/2).

But here again is a problem… it is already on the VK 45.02 P Type 181C. Which leaves, however unlikely, the Type 212 as the 900 hp engine Porsche was talking about for production VK 45.02 P’s. Since boost for all of these engines (X-16’s and the X-18) was limited to 0.5 Bar to preserve the engine it is likely that the 900 hp engine was either an early development, with less boost, or a de-rated Type 212 or, more likely, some combination of the two. The Maybach HL 210 and HL 230 were, for instance, de-rated at their introduction to 600 and 650hp when they first entered production by governing the engine rpms although technically the governors came after entry into production but that’s another story… An early Type 212 is the best possible case for an 900 hp engine at the moment with the massive amount of engine data currently available.

Source:
Panther & Its Variants.
Panzer Tracts 6-3 Panzer Tracts 6-3 Schwere-Panzerkampfwagen Maus and E 100 development and production from 1942 to 1945.
Panzer Tracts 20-1 Paper Panzers: Panzerkampfwagen Strumgeschuetz, and Jagdpanzer.
Panzerkampfwagen VI P Sd.Kfz.181: The History of the Porsche Type 100 and 101 also known as the LEOPARD and TIGER(P).
Special Panzer Variants.
Tiger I and II and their Variants.

28 thoughts on “Tiger Tales: The VK 45.02 P1 and P2 – the engines

    • I wonder why Porsche was so… in to petro-electric and hydro-electric drives. I mean I understand why it was necessity for Maus, no gear-box would handle this much weight but the lighter designs… I dunno, pls explain if u can.

      • Porsche’s first car was electric.

        He also did a lot of work with early Gas-Electric designs. Plus the Gas-Electric means that you have an infinitely variable transmission which has always been its appeal. As well as basically few points of potential failure vs many in a normal mechanical layout.

  1. Yay! Porsche tech = Best tech

    Once they introduce gear shifting, Porsche tanks and IS-6 will be the only ones to be driven just like now, without gear shifting ^__^

  2. Now, if Dr Porshe and The Old Gang had met up to create a tank, what manor of diesel electric monstrosity would they have come up with?

  3. Since I can’t be bothered to read the entire thing for the time being (work)…..

    What would be the most powerful engine possible for a front turret 45.02 (P)?

    • Proposed for VK 45.02 (P1) Type 180B (2x engines)
      Type 101/4 Porsche (115mm x145mm) 15.06L
      V-10 300hp@2000 rpm
      V-10 350hp@3200 rpm

      However as Porsche does not say which design he is talking about, with serial production, when he mentions the 900 hp engine it means that the Type 212 “900 hp version” could be for the front turreted 45.02. But I am honestly not sure if there is enough room for the engine. I really don’t know.

  4. “Yet 670hp total hp is listed for the combined hp in Special Panzers.”

    Just wondering, but is this the usual gross versus net output thing after the power needed for assorted auxiliary systems like ventilation has been substracted? (Another topic entirely is the loss imposed by converting mechanical power into electricity and back again – le Wiki mentions that to be around 20%…)

    • I really don’t know. Its possible as German engines tended to be listed and rated minus all the assorted auxiliary systems running. Which gets very annoying…

      • Didn’t they also have some kind of weird “Pferdstärke” unit almost but not quite equal to metric horsepower still in use just to confuse things further?