British Light Tank Line?

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Hello everyone,

as you probably already know, the FV4202 will be replaced by the Action X Centurion near the end of the year instead of Vickers MBT. To put it mildly, I was not happy about that switch – instead of a fast, agile medium tank not unlike the Leopard, we’ll be getting another Centurion clone with a tougher turret, but unhistorical gun and mediocre mobility and I have my doubts whether such a vehicle will truly be viable on tier 10. We’ll just have to see.

Still, I am not the only one who was wondering, whether there is a way to bring the Vickers MBT into the game after all. Here’s a proposal for a line, compiled by several people, who like British tanks and want to see more of them implemented into the game, specifically (in no particular order) Listy, Okinoshima, Anglomanii, Xlucine, Ogopogo, Vollketten, Ohslowpoke and Dominatus (most are from US forums).

Now, I always said (and I still am) that a British light tank line is problematic, to put it mildly. There is a lot of lowtier stuff, but the issues start at tier 5 and continue right to tier 8, with practically every tier 5+ vehicle being either some obscure prototype or a paper proposal. That does not mean they are unhistorical or completely fake – nothing like that, but the line would inevitably consist of paper projects with a few exceptions. Is it worth it though? Can a factor of “cool” compensate for the lack of historical use? You be the judges.

Please note that all the vehicles in this list are known to Wargaming and that there is nothing in the list that would be automatically a no go for usual reasons (“too modern”, “too good/bad”, “unacceptable equipment/missiles”). Yes, we asked. Also note that unlike various fantasies such as the second British heavy line, this one actually has a chance of being implemented in one form or another.

Lower tiers

Tiers 2 to 4 would be occupied by existing light tanks, following the usual British light tank pattern of good mobility, 2pdr gun and negligible armor. The notable candidates for these slots are two. First is the Tetrarch, which is already in the game – or rather its lend-lease Soviet version is.

Tetrarch_-_Light_Tank_Mark_VII

The Tetrarch was a very light tank – to the point of actually being used as an airborne vehicle (or rather gliderborne) by the British forces. It generally proved to be a failure even in this role, but nevertheless, it was an existing and serving tank. There are several gun options for it, including the 2pdr with Littlejohn adapter and you know how nasty that gun can be in the game. Another candidate for lower tiers would be the Harry Hopkins light tank.

IWM-MH-9324-Harry-Hopkins

It was named after the US advisor to the British government (it is unclear why, the reason, as presented by David Fletcher was that Winston Churchill simply liked the guy). This tank was a successor to the Tetrarch – it was somewhat larger and heavier, but it still carried “only” a two pounder and for the conditions of WW2 battlefield, its armor was just as insufficient as the one of the Tetrarch. If the vehicle looks familiar to you, it is because it is in the game already, in a way – the Alecto self-propelled gun was based on Harry Hopkins chassis. Neither Alecto nor Harry Hopkins were used in combat however, despite some number of these tanks built. By 1945, it was completely obsolete.

So, these are tiers 3 and 4 I would presume. Tier 2 can be fitted with… well, pretty much anything, the British have literally dozens of tier 2 options, as there was a large number of light tank variants. Usually it was stuff equipped with .50cal Vickers HMG with no armor and mediocre mobility, but lines of tanks are not played because of their tier 2′s, right?

AVR

Now we are getting to the murky waters, so to say. From now on, things are going to be pretty obscure. AVR is theoretically a tier 5 candidate. The name stands for Armored Vehicle: Reconnaissance and it was a program from 50-60′s to equip Britain with a new type of recon vehicle. The program was called AVR and there were several versions of the vehicle, including a tracked version. Eventually, they would result in the TV15000 mobile test rig, but this is the concept stage. Now, Listy found the plans for this vehicle in the archives, but they are not mine to publish – I’ve seen them though and it’s quite detailed, enough for this vehicle to be implemented. The vehicle stages have roughly the following setup:

TV15000-CVRT-Protoype-02

This of course is the TV-15000 prototype, but the concepts look somewhat similiar. The AVR proposal we are talking about was equipped with either a 30mm cannon or a 76mm cannon firing HESH shells (quite nasty, -10/+30 elevation). The armor is very thin (designed to protect the crew from shrapnels from 105mm HE explosions, small arms and machinegun fire), but it was very light (6,49 tons) and equipped with a relatively powerful engine (200 horsepower, giving it 30,81 hp/t – 220hp apparently also available). The average speed was 60 km/h. Overall, the vehicle could be a very nasty bugger – sure, every HE that hits it annihilates it, but with so much horsepower – who needs to be hit?

FV301

FV301 was a project for a British light tank from the late 40′s/early 50′s. It was a part of the FV300 series of vehicles, that included all sorts of stuff, for example a self-propelled artillery piece. A prototype was built eventually, but very few photos are available. It looked something like this:

fv301_002

At least one prototype was built, but it disappeared at some point. In any case, the vehicle was not accepted into service. Luckily for us, Ogopogo from US forums managed to uncover drawings and specifications for this vehicle (the drawings generally match the picture above). Again, I am not at liberty to post them here, but I can write that the vehicle had a crew of 4, weighed 26 short tons (23,5 tons) and was powered by Rolls Royce Meteorite Mk.II (or Mk.VI), producing 537 hp (20,65 hp/t), maximum speed was 48 km/h. Frontal hull armor was 31,75mm (55 deg) and 44,5mm (54 deg) thick, sides were 19mm thick, rear was also 19mm. Turret thickness was 51/25,4/25,4mm. The armament consisted of 77mm QF gun, that could penetrate 120mm of armor at 30 degrees at 500m. Overall, it looks like a pretty solid light tank, nothing too wild.

Higher tiers

Tier 6 is where conventional British light tanks end and real fun begins. The problem is, I would love to tell you, but I can’t. Tier 7 and up are based on info, that was directly uncovered by the gentlemen listed above from archives and none of it is available for public yet (not my call).

The very short version is that tier 7 could be a version of the FV4401 “Contentious” – no, not the one on wiki. To give you an idea, it kinda looks like ELC (very roughly – it’s taller, but it has rear turret), it has an autoloaded 17 pdr. There were several Contentious projects, some of them are very, very bizarre. This particular one seems to have reached the mockup stage. A better photo exists, but this is the only one already published I found (nope, that’s not just a random piece of junk made to resemble a tank):

prototype

Tier 8 to 10 would be Vickers tanks. Specifically, tier 8 would be a light tank, tier 9 and 10 would be Vickers medium tanks, with 9 a Vickers MBT prototype and tier 10 a Vickers MBT, which was already described elsewhere. The prototypes is what we call VTN’s. VTN means “Vickers Telephone Number” (an inside joke, not an official name) – the prototypes are called Vickers 45569, 46200 and 51025. They represent the stages of the Vickers MBT development, with the earliest, 45569, a candidate for tier 8 light tank. It was basically a lighter version of the MBT, with a 20 pdr gun. I wish I could publish more about them, but again, same as above.

It however IS possible to build a line like that. Whether it will happen, well… that’s another matter. The line would be amongst the heavier ones when it comes to light tank lines, the tier 8 having relatively worse mobility, but good firepower for a light tank.

67 thoughts on “British Light Tank Line?”

  1. Maaaan… it’s all nice and fun with Brits getting new stuff and I like it too but….

    MUH FRENCHIES ;__;

    Y U WG NO MOAR BRANCHES SINCE 7.6 ?

    Y?! ;__;

    • I my eyes, all French vehicles have AWFUL grinds to get to the good stuff. I remember the B1, it was OK, but the gun bounced of even M3 Lee’s as it was a tier 3 gun.

      The AMX 40 is just awfully slow and I quit the grind because of it’s gun’s pen and because of the speed.

      The Somua Sau 40 is an absolute nightmare because that 100 mm pen gun is do-able but the grind to it is a nightmare as you only have 60 mm of pen and keep getting into tier 6 matches. I am still grinding the S35 CA, and when I get it, it will be my first tier 5 French vehicle. The Sau 40 is VERY slow though.

      • That’s why you use the derp gun on Somua Sau 40 , it’s an absolute wonder but you have to keep the distance since its slow like a snail and has no armor.

        As for the Bath tube …. You gotta love La baguette gun :)

        • I don’t want to unlock the Derp on the Sau 40, the second 75 at LEAST makes it a bit bearable and not absolutely terrible.

          And I already have 2000 exp on it.

      • if you quit grinding because the tier IV tanks are bad, then you aren’t going to get many lines ground…
        Every tier IV is crap pretty much.

        • But some of them are more barable, like the Panzer III, the Panzer IV D, the Chi-He, Ke-Ho. But also there are some great tier IV TD’s, like the SU-85B (great 160 damage 120 pen gun on tier 4, the KV-1 gun basically), the StuG III B, the Hetzer, the M8A1 and the T40.

          T40 keeps getting my tier 6 vehicles killed, lol. M8A1 is just funny, like a miniature hellcat.

        • The Matilda is decent thanks to the littlejohn adaptor. Just avoid KV1S tanks that can one shot you.

      • Add the AMX12t, AMX1375, and ARLV39 to the painful grinds as well. Other than that though, the French are actually quite nice. They’re not for everyone though.

        • Didn’t really like the 12t. Was too sluggish. 13 75 is lovely though. Got my first mark of excellence 30 games in.

          Still grinding for 13 90 (and sixth sense)

          • I personally liked the 12t more than the 13 75. But then I was rather bad@tonks at the time. The 13 75 just mostly seems like a worse T71 to me, while the 12t has its own distinctive flavor (Even if this flavor isn’t particular a glorious one).

      • The S35 CA is a great low tier TD, Just side scrape and you can show your gun but hide 85% of your tank. then 1 shot most others.

      • Oh trust me, the S35 CA is MUCH better (in fact, many consider the stock gun to be the best gun)…and then the ARL V39 comes along and slaps you in the face, then the AMX ACs…and then you get the Foch and the Foch 155 and forget whatever it was you were complaining about.

  2. I want that Tetrarch and Harry Hopkins!! They are awesome!

    Also, the AVR seems quite cool and so does that FV301 (bad model though, the gun looks awful), I would really like to see a tier 6 light with a better gun than the tier 6 medium xD

    The Tetrarch can also use a 76 mm howitzer Btw, which is quite awesome (a 76 mm howitzer like on the Matilda and Churchill), I thought it was the 3 inch one.

  3. UK Light tank line will sure a nice addition to the game.I think its inevitable there will new UK Light tank line but that may will come probably beyond 2016 …….

  4. The game is about tanks .

    Fighting in a map .

    With guns .

    So give us more maps and more tanks and that it ! no need for the graphical things . no need for all of that extra BS ! everyone is so happy to get more tanks to shoot at . seeing the same tank every single battle in a row gets annoying sometimes . ( looking at you , kvass )

  5. If it does get in the game, I would finally have an excuse to play the Cruiser III :D You know, crew training and such.
    I’m playing the VAE type B a lot, for crew training purposes too. then it’s ok :)

  6. I wonder how the FV301 will compare with the Cromwell.
    20 HP/T and 48km/h top speed is a lot less than the Cromwell. I suppose the FV301 will have great soft stats and a better gun to compensate.

    Looks like we might be getting another tier 7 tank with a autoloaded 17 pounder…

    • we have the fv304 the 301 is the same as the 304 only alot faster xD

      the 301 will beable to mount that dreadful 114mm derp the 304 has xD

  7. It’s interesting to mention the AVR and not post this one, SS.

    http://i.imgur.com/KmukOQx.png

    One of the earlier AVR concepts for a limited traverse light tank with a short barrelled 105mm gun.

    Info can be found in an FV101 Scorpion development document here:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/93953328/Ogorkiewicz-RM-1971-Scorpion-Reconnaissance-Tank-AFV-Weapons-Profile-No-34

    Personally, I see it working like this:

    Tier 2 – Vickers 6-ton (Easily the most famous of the “low end” ones)
    Tier 3 – Tetrarch (With Littlejohn Adaptor)
    Tier 4 – Harry Hopkins
    Tier 5 – AVR 105
    Tier 6 – FV301
    Tier 7 – TV-15000 (Can suit being higher if given the 90mm gun that it could mount)
    Tier 8 – VTN 45569
    Tier 9 – Vickers MBT Prototype
    Tier 10 – Vickers MBT (With Mk3 turret as unlockable to make it tier 10 worthy)

    I hadn’t heard of the Contentious before, that looks amazing! I wonder if there are enough contentious projects to make a “break off” line of lights from tier 7 onwards past what I’ve written here. Nice to see more high tier ideas. Excellent writeup, man.

    • Trouble is there’s no real details on that AVR design. The ones we have full technical specs, modules and plans for are different to that.
      Equally the one you link doesn’t seem to appear in the AVR documents at the Archives. It May be that its part of project Prodigal, as similar program running at about the same sort of time frame. Or that we’ve not found the AVR document with it in.

      There Is one AVR design that resembles that one slightly, but that’s a wheeled version.

      • More detail than a lot of other tanks in the game. Some info and a graphic is more than I could say for some lines/tanks in WoT. I wouldn’t mind them just “guesstimating” for it, honestly.

        Although if it were replaced at tier 5 by the TV-15000 and the Contentious brought in at tier 7 instead I wouldn’t complain, mind. They’re all good.

        • The issue for us players is to even propose a new LT line, we’d need to have a lot of data and blueprints/specs to back it up. WG goes for “historical accuracy” and of course, they won’t go for any “guesstimating”.

          • “guesstimating” is something to be used when all else fails. Such as “guesstimating” the weight of the “shot” for the gun when you have fps, penn and everything else.

  9. Very cool…but really, the lights wouldn’t even need a full line. They could split off from the Medium branch after tier 5, considering that the British med line is all light tanks until you hit the Cromwell at tier 6…kind of like the US autoloader line.

    • They could, but that would bypass tanks that were actually designated Light Tanks by the General Staff.

        • Because the British had a different classification system from the rest of the world. they had Infantry tanks (big and slow with a lot of armor) and Cruiser tanks (highly mobile but having no armor to speak of). Most of the Cruisers would be classified as either light or medium tanks, while the Infantry tanks were mostly slow medium and heavy tanks.

  11. I predict that if the FV301 gets implemented, it’s gonna play very similarly to the M24 Chaffee we have right now (slow top speed, but high agility with a good gun).

    • the 301 hits 72kms its tiny very tiny. see the 304? thats how tiny. and fast! with the option to mount the 114 derp we see on bert.

  12. I cheered when I saw your post on the FV4202 switch. Agile I’ll give you, but the FV4202 is practically the slowest T10 medium in the game. Yes, the power-to-weight ratio is very good, and it has good terrain resistance, but the speed limit is harsh on a medium tank. The upper hull armour is good, but the turret has that huge, vulnerable neckbrace, and it’s only now getting a competitive DPM. It’s not a /bad/ tank, but it’s not good /enough/ at any one thing to compare to, say, the E 50 ausf.M or the STB-1. It’s certainly nothing like the Leopard 1.

    The Action X Centurion, on the other hand, looks like it’ll be a very nice hulldown vehicle giving it an actual battlefield role, and while you might groan at ‘another Centurion clone’, I’ll be over here vibrating in suppressed glee at getting a T10 incarnation of one of my countries best fighting vehicle designs :)

    • Couldn’t agree more. I think you’re wrong on this one, SS. The Action X will continue the same play style we know and love from the previous two Centurions, while the Vickers would be an inferior Leopard 1. As far as your complaint of “unhistorical gun” goes, the 20 pdr and 105 mm L7 shared the same mounts, so both were completely interchangeable. Compared to other tanks in game with unhistorical armament, let alone pure fantasy projects like the Waffle, that’s about as minor a complaint as you can get. I think the Vickers is better served as the capstone of either a light line like suggested here, or a Lend-Lease tree as the Vijayanta.

      • This is also a good point. Going from the Centurion 7/1 to the FV4202 is something of a playstyle shift from what I’ve heard; the FV4202′s weakest frontal armour is probably the turret, while the turret is about the only decent armour the Centurion has. The Action X Centurion, on the other hand, looks like it will be an enhancement and expansion of the Centurion’s playstyle, and I for one am looking forward to a serious hulldowner in my British lineup.

  13. Come on SS… Vickers MBT would be crap. No soft stats would make up for lack of unique features: it would be just another “worse Leopard 1″ and way below Russian meds standards.

    On the other hand, Action X Centurion can fill up a niche that is currently empty (ridge fighter – STB1 has too weak turret and too derpy gun to do it perfectly). Unique >>> not unique in my book.

  14. how about VickersMBT at tier 9 and Vijayanta at tier X (The later version with Diesel engine) ? ……….or Vijayanta at 9 n Vickers at X?

    (not sure it had Composite armor or not)

  15. SS, I can’t really understand your disappointment. If you look at the current meta-shift (more brawling) tanks with actual armor become more viable again (just take a look at the Pershing, who sees a revival).

    Especially about the Vickers you shouldn’t be sad, since yes, it is a Leopard clone, but if historically accurate, a really cheap one. So what we would see at best is a worse Leopard 1. And to me, the Leo 1 is already limited in its use due to whooping 70 turret armor. Leo1 city and brawling maps anyone?

    If you can go hull down at least in places to get more risky shots out, apart from 450m and double bushing, that is a relief.

  16. Dont know why you have such a hard on for the Vickers MBT, the mark 1 was junk, the mark 3 would be passable but would be the newest tank in the game by a decade so dont see that happening. If you want a leopard 1 play one….

      • It would be absolute junk as a t10 if it was the Mk1, the Mk3 is a decade later would be too new to get into the game. Just because you have the drawings for some export tank never used by the British in any capacity doesnt mean it should be the tier 10.

  19. Why is there this insistence to make the Vickers MBT a Tier 10 tank? It seems like it would be far more comfortable at Tier 9.

  20. “based on info, that was directly uncovered by the gentlemen listed above from archives and none of it is available for public yet (not my call).”

    No disrespect to the people who spent their time digging through the archives, but aren’t these archives public domain? Surely if they where classified documents, no one would be poking around in them. Being the first person to read a publicly released government document doesn’t give you a copyright on it.

    Maybe I’m reading it wrong, but it sounds like people have read publicly available government archives, but aren’t sharing with the rest of the public.

    • The UK National Archives have the following rules.

      1. Documents or plans may be used for academic discussion freely. So sharing the documents within the small group of us doing that classifies as that.

      2. Written words, such as a photograph taken by the researcher, of a memorandum or report, can (I think, but being careful on the next point its safer not to use them) be used without limitation.

      3. Original Photographs and plans can only be used once they’ve been paid for. At current I seem to recall this is £50 per 20 images.