The Mouse that Hunts

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Hello everyone,

a mouse is usually a small animal being hunted instead of doing the hunting… but – what if we gave it the teeth of the crocodile?

Why is it needed? Where would it go?

Let’s start from the beginning. There are basically two reasons why a new German tank destroyer would be needed.

First:

Some time ago, the Waffenträger E-100 line was implemented. After some time, it was found out that the Waffenträger E-100 is far from ideal. While fragile, it was also overpowered and with its phenomenal firepower, it was able to chew through practically any tier 10 vehicle within a single autoloader cycle. That of course was not exactly an ideal situation and in 9.2, WT E-100 was nerfed, but it still remains one of the most feared predators on the battlefield.

Apart from being overpowered, it has another issue – it’s completely unhistorical – in other words, a Wargaming-made fake. There have been some hints as to the willingness of Wargaming to replace something else, IF a suitable candidate is found. So far, it was not.

Second:

As you probably know, there have been tons of historical Waffenträger designs in the past. Most are based (such as the ingame RhB) on the Panzer 38t or 38d suspension, while others are based on either the Panzer IV (also in the game) or the Panther. Generally speaking, these Waffenträgers could be built into a line, ranging from lower tiers, with tiers 7 and 8 covered by 38t/d based WT’s and tier 9 by a Panther Waffenträger. These vehicles are all historical and I covered them in several previous articles. The problem with such a line is, there is no tier 10 for it. Even the best Panther Waffenträgers (carrying no better weapons than the ingame Panzer IV WT) would fulfill the tier 9 slot unfortunately, without some serious unhistorical buffing at least – and even IF a WT Panther was dragged to tier 10, it would have to fight with pure stealth, its chassis being very fragile compared to other tier 10 vehicles. And more “invisible sniper from bushes” vehicles is not exactly what this game needs.

The Mouse That Hunts

Probably the most obvious candidate for either WT E-100 replacement or new tier 10 vehicle would be the Sturmgeschütz Maus, also (incorrectly) called the Jagdpanzer Maus, or Jagdmaus. It was a historical competing project to the Sturmgeschütz E-100, designed by Porsche. Note that the Jagdpanzer E-100 (or Jagdpanzer Maus) is not historical, the vehicle was intended to be a heavy assault gun, not a tank destroyer – so if you ever read anywhere about the StuG E-100, it’s the same project as the Jagdpanzer E-100. The official designation of the vehicle was 15/17cm Sturmgeschütz auf Mausfahrzeug. It is covered in Panzer Tracts 6-3, page 48.

It was a very short-lived project (from May to July 1944, when Hitler stopped the superheavy development, facing the crisis on the eastern front). It seems that a small-scale mockup was possibly made, but no drawings or photos survived the war.

What we do know about it:

- it was to be equipped with 15cm L/63 or 17cm L/53 gun
- Porsche wanted a flak turret on the vehicle, this was declined due to the fact the vehicle would be escorted by an AA tank
- Porsche design in May 1944 was only in concept stage, it was judged too tall, “exceeding the railroad profile”
- Porsche later on wanted a 3cm flak turret on the vehicle at the expense of gun recoil
- Vehicle was to carry 85 rounds of ammunition
- a gun, considered for the E-100 competitor was also 15cm L/68, that however was a Krupp thing

What we do NOT know about it:

- how it looked, dimensions
- how thick was its armor
- the gun performance
- the engine that was to power it
etc.

As you can see, very little is known about the project, apart from the fact it existed. If it was to be – say – implemented into World of Tanks, the developers would have a lot of potential room to operate. It however must be noted that any such implementation would have to be marked specifically as “artist’s impression”, as there is no way of knowing how the real vehicle would have looked like. Still, better than WT E-100 – and this is where the real fun begins.

Crocodile’s Teeth

trump1_35jagdpanzere100

This is the Jagdpanzer E-100 “Krokodil”. It’s a notorious fake, that appears every now and then on the internet. No such vehicle was ever planned and the author of this look was not a German engineer, but a modeller, specifically the Trumpeter company. Alternative looks of the “Krokodil” exist on the internet, they are all fake. Nevertheless, at one point (a long time ago), Krokodil was actually seriously considered for implementation in World of Tanks by the developers. There are however two serious issues with the vehicle:

- it’s unhistorical: even if the Sturmgeschütz E-100 (not Jagdpanzer!) existed, it would not likely be of this setup. There are tons of issues with the frontal gun layout: the gun is long and the vehicle was of titanic weight, exceeding the capabilities of WW2 level metallurgy. Sure, ISU-152 worked with the frontal gun, but the gun was shorter and most importantly, the vehicle weighed 47 tons, not 150. The frontal part of the suspension would be overstressed, it would be difficult to maneuver etc. – there is a lot of problems with that design and that was why Wargaming decided to implement the rear-casemate version, that is more realistic. The Wargaming version of Jpz E-100 is what Krupp likely intended it to be – that, or an oversized Jagdtiger with mid-casemate.

- it’s copyrighted: yep, it’s art, so it’s protected by law. Unless WG bought the rights to this design, well… too much hassle I guess.

But… there is a way. What if Wargaming made the StuG Maus into some sort of KrokoMaus? Noone knows how it looked. The short version is: make it frontal casemate as the picture above, give it the 15cm L/63 and Maus suspension. And there you have it, the Maus with some nasty teeth.

The Design

As I mentioned it above, noone knows how the StuG Maus looked like. While it is historically unlikely that the German engineers chose the frontal casemate variant (the Maus design would require some serious overhaul in this case), it is certainly more attractive design. What I am thinking is something like this.

krokomaus

The goal would be to create something lighter than the Jagdpanzer E-100 in the game, but with some nasty punch of the 150mm gun.

The armor – well, nothing is known, so it’s a purely balance measure. I’d suggest something that would give it roughly the same level of protection as the Soviet tank destroyers have, so somewhere between 200-250mm effective armor with LFP weakness. Sides would be weaker, but the sideskirts could compensate for some of that. Alternatively, the armor could be significantly lighter for increased performance and gun soft stats.

The gun – 150mm L/63, its historical performance is not known, so anything goes. I would suggest something like:

Penetration – 290/350/90
Damage – 750/750/1100
Accuracy – 0,32
Aimtime – 2,5s
RPM – 3,33

The mobility – probably Maybach Neues Projekt engine, 1200hp in the game. The actual performance depends on the weight of course, but I’d put it somewhere between WT E-100 and Jpz E-100.

Naturally, the camo factor of this beast would be mediocre (we don’t need invisible TD’s).

So, what do you think?

102 thoughts on “The Mouse that Hunts”

  1. Can’t say I would mind a new German TD. I don’t really like neither Jpz E-100 nor WT E-100 (though I’m ok with Jpz). Your TD proposal seems quite good.

    • It seems good, until that photoshopped image. That looks nothing like a Maus short of the suspension.

      A few things.
      -Maus armor was 200mm thick. By logic of the jagdpanther, that stays the same on the TD version.
      -Please use a drawing of a Maus hull as the base of your new design, not an E-100 with Maus suspension.
      -The length of the gun is still an issue. I see more merit to the mid-casemate design you posted in the series of Maus articles you posted way back. (http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Picturesc/jgdm.jpg). It was apparently too tall for railroad tunnels, so we might get to shoot over some types of cover that other vehicles cannot. Also in this case, use the Jagtiger’s logic for armor instead, and add 100mm to the casemate.
      -Don’t change the side armor either. This is a Maus, not some friggin medium tank. The base vehicle was 40~ tons heavier than the E-100. The StuG Maus should then be roughly 40 tons heavier than the StuG E-100 as well, or you might as well call it the StuG E-75 or some shit… which there were also plans for iirc.

      • the main asset of WT’s are turreted very lethal and very paper tanks. and changing the gameplay to super armored, super upgunned autoloader, super slow tank would be good =)

    • how about yes …. because E100 has 1 shoot at 17 sec , JPE100 has 1 shoot at 25 sec … it is an interesting concept with a gun that can shoot every 15 or less seconds. Now we need to know if it needs GOLD ammo to penetrate tanks … i have some problems with E100 and JPE100 shells that go bounce or no damage direct hits … fucking RNG

  4. Yes please! And that is a sexy, sexy design…like a Jagdpanther on steroids.

    And that gun idea…umm, no, too powerful. More like 10s reload, at BEST, with that pen & alpha. Or was that supposed to be 33.3s with the decimal screwed up?

  7. Are u really proposing a Sturmgeschütz TD as an the Top Tier of an Waffenträger Line?
    i thought u were enthusiastic for german tanks, u cannot be serious on this…

      • I think that replacement for WT e100 should be the tank that has same playstyle as borsig and wt pz IV. They all have to have exellent camo and no armor..

      • Borgward Leopard!

        Fast, fragile and with excellent gun handling. Give it a 6-7 round autoloader and toy around with soft stats till it’s balanced with the Leo 1 medium. Job done!

  8. I see a baseline error:
    E-100 was a lighter and simplier project to compliment the “Maus”.
    So why SPG on Maus chassis will be lighter than SPG on E-100 chassis?

    It is just do not make sense.

  9. 1. WT E-100 will remain popular after the nerfs and WG is not known for replacing popular tanks.
    2. Α (moderately) armoured TD is out of context with the rest of the line.
    3. Replacing a fake TD with an equally fake one (yep I call it a fake since noone even knows what it would look like), negates the whole “historicity” point.

    • 1. It’s considered to be a problem, but yes.
      2. Possible, but there is hardly anything better.
      3. Not a complete invention, hence it’s “less fake”. Also, it’s theoretically no more fake than Jpz E-100.

      • How about, to keep it in tune more with the line (and the WTE100 itself, as unhistorical as it is)

        How about making the StuG MAUS Similar in armor layout to the current WTE100?

        By this i mean :

        -MAUS hull, with its naturally extremely strong armor

        -upper casement (or turret, if you really want to stick to the WT line development) with barely any armor at all.

        -Leave the 15cm L/63 you have, without an autoloader, but change the soft stats (worse if turret, similar if casement)

        • Why do we consider it as a replacement for the WaffleTraktor E-100?

          As far as I remember WG stated that 3rd German TD line is planned (hence the Ferdinand being semi-excluded from the current JgPz E-100 line).

  10. Personally I’d rather just get rid of tier 10 tds altogether (along with removing all arty) and have all the lines stop at the current tier 9s like arty used to stop at 8.

    But, well, that’s just me.

    • I bet you also want to have absolutely no RNG whatsoever and have complete balance and similar stats across all tanks so that this game will be entirely balanced right?

  11. I think the idea itself is not bad,but in the way you proposed it I think it would be underpowered.I mean,compare it to Obj.268…
    Onj.268 is stealthy is mobile it has decent armor.
    This one would be huge,easy to spot,artillery would love it and armor means very little in tier 10 battles.
    This tank would be useless in a few maps and generally would be a gold magnet and an arty magnet.

    I know implementing this project in WoT should be taken in consideration but from my personal experience anything that is slow and relies heavily on armor is bad at tier 10.

    EDIT: I also don’t see why this tank would be lighter than the Maus.Usually if you look at German designs the TDs are heavier than the chassis they were based on.

  12. Erm… no? WTs are supposed to be glass cannons. This thing would have armor and good one. A tier 10 WT is exactly what the WT E-100 is right now. It’s not OP anymore. It can’t kill a tier 10 tank with one clip and even if it could… that was its only pro. People need to play smart and outmaneuver it.

    Why would you replace a fake with another fake that doesn’t even fit the branch?

    • Uh what are you talking about? 5 shots at 560 average damage is more than enough to take out nearly any tier 10 tank with only a couple exceptions (that could still be done if every shot high rolled)

    • 5×560=2800

      It can kill every T10 in one clip (except Maus). Its other pro’s are a turret and awesome view range.

      • Let’s put the pros and cons in a balance and see which ones are higher, aye?

        Pros
        + 2800 damage with one clip (if RNG doesn’t say otherwise)
        + 360° rotating turret
        + 420 m view range
        + good accuracy

        Cons
        - HUGE
        - No armor
        - Huge turret with no armor
        - High reload time
        - Bad camo factor
        - Bad gun depression

        So yeah, keep this one. Any other suggestion is as bad or worse.

        • You repeated a cons twice (no armor on turret) and you forgot to include 3 pros.

          The tank does have decent hull armor that can bounce shots and it has great aim time and very good reload time within the clip.

          Also all those cons are far more important than most of those cons by a remarkably large margin.
          The WT E-100 is OP

          • After this latest nerf on the Waffle, only a fucking moron would still think the Waffle is OP.

      • Too bad I spotted one yesterday for the rest of the team and they owned him within seconds. Got two hits in. Tier 8 med, Japanese STA.

        And we weren’t even in the second minute of the game.

        • wtf e100 is as cancerous as arties….it needs to be removed…together with 183….on the other hand remove all t10 tds because they brought only cancer to this game….

        • Thats what a tomato gets if it rushes out in the first minute. I bet you wouldnt feel so safe, if the battle was tied and you ended up against a full or half HP WT-E100 and a few survivors on his team.

  13. Waffenträger Panther is the best option, I think. We (not exactly) know how it would look. I think a 100 ton lie is bigger than a 40.

    By the way, WoT for X360 is getting Soviet artyes.

  14. Tier 10 german TD area is so complicated part of history and there is not a real candidate for tier 10. This is a big bad correct situation but game needs one or more of this too. JpzE-100, of course, an assault gun project and WTE-100 is a king of fake just E-50M!

    For my opinion the most real tier 10 TD candidate is Jagdtiger. But this tank is one of the ” very old comrades” of WoT and many players might not accept its transfer from tier 9 to tier 10.

    The tanks that in your article may true and acceptable as “a bit historical” but it cannot get more information to make the most correct machine for WoT. So producers must (or have to) enter their ideas in new TD a lot (or a few).

    If they are make a new “hybrid-historical” tank, why they change the ready one, the WTE-100? Then there will be a new choice in front of them (and us); the most unhistorical tank or the more unhistorical tank!

  15. It would not fit into the waffentrager line. Those TDs are supposed to be have weak armor but good guns. This is is the very opposite of this idea.

  16. I’m not sure.
    With a 170mm gun, it would be redundant vs JPE-100
    With 150mm gun, it would be redundant vs T110E3

    Could we just give the WT Panther unhistorical firepower and call it a day? A 150mm on a turreted, mobile chassis, or even a 170mm on a turreted chassis.

    I think I also remember something about a 210mm howitzer.

  17. The less unhistorical StuG Maus would be a nice replacement for the Jagdpanzer E-100 and of course it has to have a central casemate like it’s precedessor Jagdtiger. (You want to have a streamlined Jagdpanzer? Drive Jagdpanther!)

    But it never would fit the Waffenträger line – not at all! A sensefull replacement for WT E-100 would be something on Panther (E-100 chassis is way to stronk) with no autoloader but a fast firing accurate gun.

    • Yes, something like that would work. A tier 10 WT could use a Panther hull fitted with a high accuracy and fast reload gun that deals less damage. Something like the Obj. 263 gun or even less damage.

  19. Silentstalker is there anther german TDs (apart from Waffenträger type TD ) what can make for 3 or 4 line ?

  20. ” Even the best Panther Waffenträgers (carrying no better weapons than the ingame Panzer IV WT) would fulfill the tier 9 slot unfortunately, without some serious unhistorical buffing at least – and even IF a WT Panther was dragged to tier 10, it would have to fight with pure stealth, its chassis being very fragile
    compared to other tier 10 vehicles.”
    Remember this article by Zarax? http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/10/22/building-a-tier-x-hellcat-waffentrager-panther/ There is an autoloader mentioned as well. Would you rather get shot to hell when you empty your clip because you’re the size of a Star Destroyer or zip around undetected and poke tanks.

    Also this StuGMaus seems pretty overstretched
    1. How on Earth could a Maus-based vehicle be lighter than an E-100 based one?
    2. It ‘s no more historical than WT E-100 (and Gw E). It’s only specified that an assault gun would be made on a Maus chassis, just like there would be an AA vehicle (and an arty) on the E-100 chassis. Hell, even JgPz E-100 is more historical as, IIRC, there were some guidelines about how it would work.
    3. It makes no sense to end a WT line with an armored Sturmgeschutz

    This might work better: http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/07/29/1260/ http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/08/27/stug-e-75-possible-tier-10-german-td-2/

  23. To be honest, WT Panther would be the best option to end the WT line: fragile (no need for good UFP if everyone shoots the upper casemate), relatively fast, and I’m sure an autoloader can be found with in one of the proposals.

    I could see the Stug.Maus as the end for another line: Porsche tank destroyers. There have been some, weren’t there?

  24. Well if I could suggest something it would be like this:
    The Second German TD line => The WT auf Panther as Tier 10 With a Fast firing 12.8cm gun like the Jagtiger or the WT auf Pz IV it has. Look at the Obj 263. It has the roughly the same gun as a Wt auf PZ IV and it performes great. Because it trades Armor with Camo. It has less dmg and rougly the same reload as the prenerfed pz IV. So yeah. I would like to see such tank. Because at the moment no T10 TD is stealthy with low dmg. Well I prefere fast firing and low dmg gun. Give it a top speed on flat surface like the normal panther. 2000 HP and good camo and good viewrange. Tada new Tank destoryer which performes with DPM and camo.
    If anyone is saying now that camo is BS. Then try please the su 122 54. Its a very special T9 TD and one of my favourite. Because of the speed of a T54 and the gun of a IS4. It doesnt depend on armor. And it performs well in t10 Battles.

    Back to the Stug Maus.
    I got the Jagdpanzer E100 in my garage. With, yes, 1k Battles on it. It is a Great tank. The only weakness is: Gold ammo. Because as soon as a enemy e100 is shooting gold at you you are dead in less then a minute. The Superstructure doesnt holds of Gold shells. If you try to sidescrap they shoot your side. If you dont sicescrap enough they still shoot through your superstructur front. They once said they want probably to introduce the Stug Maus as a alternaive Hull for the JGE100. And i would approve it. If it would be faster then the JGE100 yes please. If it would have the 15cm gun. IDK it would be still a new experience to play. Especialy because of the frontal fighting compartment. It would have better gun depression then the JGE100 (-6 as far as i know) and it would also be probably better against arty shells which come frontaly. And to the one which say it would be a E3 clone. I dont think so. Because the e3 has a max speed of 24 Km/h The JGE100 comes to a speed of 28-30 Km/h on flat surface. When this thing goed up to 34 why not?
    Then the e3 has much better frontal armor. The Stug Maus would just have a plus because it is angeld and it would be easier to bounce shells when you sidescrap.

    Conclusion:

    WT Panther would be a great exotic TD for T10
    Stug Maus. Why not? It would be also a change because the german TD’s only know 1050 or 560 dmg
    Also it looks sexy :3

  25. As a concept I like the Waffentrager E-100 much better, however it is implemented with horrible game balance… In my opinion the waffentrager deserves a more slimlined shield around the autoloader, 2400 hitpoints and a huge nerf to the rate of fire and aimtime.
    As the waffentrager 12,8cm is super accurate with only 0.29m dispersion at 100 metres and excellent penetration even with normal AP it should take at least 3 seconds between each shot and take 4-5 seconds to aim in after firing. This means the vehicle will have to be exposed for a longer time and will lose accuracy if the player doesn’t aim properly. This is why it need a smaller silhouette and more hitpoints.

  26. Another big, full of armor holes, very low DPM slug TD? Ya, how about no. 3,000 DPM at least or anything is pointless when you can zip around in the other TDs doing that DPM and still having good qualities. Just drive a medium at this point. No reason to go from 3,000 DPM in the JT to T7 level firepower.

  27. WG logic is quite thrown out thru the window sometimes

    WG: Krokodil is fake. We cannot implement it. OK!
    WG: We know WT-E100 is fake. Be we can implement it. It’s autoloader, it means lots of money for us. Many dumbshits will gold their way to get it.

    WG: T58 will not be introduced. It’s too OP. (O reeeally?)
    WG: Today we have added WT-E100 with 6 shells ( 5 as of 9.2) and 15cm gun with 4 shells. Even with 20mm armor it’s still considered OP and people still cry once a week about it.

    And about Krokodil design…that copyright doesnt mean sht. It’s about THAT unique design. WG can come up with their own unique designed Krokodil and Trumpeter can suck it hard.

    That Stug Maus designs looks good enough. Will be a nice addition to the game IMO.

  28. Problem with WG is the tanks that put in game that are supposed to be heavily armored, end up being the easiest to pen with all the premium ammo, and then they have nothing to make you play them. So unless they make a heavily armored chassis for real, as in, no armor holes, there is no point since other tanks with just as effective armor will have more firepower, better mobility. Maus is easily killed at will, and it has pathetic firepower. Why play it? Same with the JPE. Sure, it has alpha, but very low DPM, completely ineffective armor. Jagdtiger at least has good DPM and can hull down somewhat in its tier.

    I chuckle that SS thinks the WT is OP now, or ever was.

  29. Lets see.
    I approach this from the GAMEPLAY and Design >>>>>>>>>>> Historical accuracy (Dirty word) point of view.

    JagdTiger -> JagdPanzer E-100 17cm
    -> Jagd E-75 ( JagdTiger 2 in looks) with a longer or same 128mm gun.

    WTF PZ4 -> WTF Panther

    Unknown line -> JagdMaus (150mm long ass gun)

    JagdMaus can also be after JagdTiger. WHY you ask? Because the JagdPanzer E100 is more in line with fucking Soviet TD gameplay then German TD gameplay…

  30. Frank, there is one historical problem with this: Grandpa Ferdi wasn’t exactly a fan of sloped armor surfaces – and his tastes are quite known in that matter…

  31. About that Krokodil … it’s pretty simple if you think about it. The modeller in question who designed this took a look at a Jagdpanther and basically said “Let’s increase everything 40%”

    That being said, I’d agree the gun would be too big/heavy for the chassis/suspension with at 17cm Kanone 18 (or equilivant) and theoretically wouldn’t fit the “40% increase” of a historical 88mm equipped Jagdpanther.

    To make that design feasible, the gun would need to be 128mm – and to give it something special, make it a 3 or 4 shot autoloader. Give it decent pen, a fair “time between shots” rate, and a bearable reload time of around 50 seconds.

    What you’d end up with is a front end that’d bounce a lot of shots with that angle, a gun that would have great penetration, but at the cost of lowered alpha damage to its larger-caliber counterparts, and would still remain reasonably vulnerable due to the long reload times, and slower traverse speeds an overloaded E-100 chassis would be plagued with on the front end.

  32. Even the best Panther Waffenträgers (carrying no better weapons than the ingame Panzer IV WT) would fulfill the tier 9 slot unfortunately, without some serious unhistorical buffing at least – and even IF a WT Panther was dragged to tier 10, it would have to fight with pure stealth, its chassis being very fragile compared to other tier 10 vehicles. And more “invisible sniper from bushes” vehicles is not exactly what this game needs.

    Stop it, we don’t need more OP T10 TDs. A waffentrager panther with the top 128 from the waffle IV would be a perfectly balanced T10 TD.

    Small (for a T10 TD), a gun with great overal stats but without the OP 750+ alpha or an insane auto loader like the WaffleE-100

    • Panther Waffentrager would be a Tier X Hellcat. with 900hp engine (Maybach HL 234) it has 20hp/t. No need for autoloader, the fast firing 12,8cm is good for Tier 10 TD.

  33. i like the design but i have to say one thing the majority of german high tier tanks in the game have the same philosophy and that is usually armour above everything else. for example tiger 2, e-75, e-100, tiger p, vk 4502a, vk 4502b, maus, panther 2, e-50, e-50m, jagdpanther, ferdinand, jagdpanther 2 (casement), jagdtiger, jagdpanzer e-100. hell even the leopard line up to the vk3002d have some troll armour (havent driven an indien panzer so cant comment on it).
    the only exceptions to this rule are the scouts, the WT line and the leopards.
    in my opinion then i would use the jagdpanther as a template and take how the armour was done for it as an example as in the krocomaus would get 200mm of sloped frontal armour that would keep the same native slope of the maus. it would then get the same armour and engine power as the maus from there with the exception of a turret.
    in my opinion it would be nice to have a few more assault guns in the game. for a while i thought the brits tds would have been my style but those weak points killed them for me a tier 6. in my opinion of all the nations in the game the germans should be the ones with the heavy assault guns like the design you have proposed. i really want some more tanks that platy like the ferdinand in the game as in they have a lot of horsepower but a 30kmh top speed so it can maintain that speed on almost all ground. dont forget though this krocomaus would be much lighter than the basic maus thanks to the loss of the turret because the amour and size of that turret is immense so just giving it a super structure like your design would make it about 10 tonnes lighter.
    even if it received a mid mounted casement it would still be around the same weight as a normal but in that case it would need to be sloped to a lesser extent and the armour could be made 300mm thick so that it would immediately become vulnerable to gold ammo from other tier 10 tds.

    • And yet they keep saying “herpaderp itz 2 modern 4 dis gehm!”. In balance terms it’s basically a Jagdpanzer IV with the 90 mm gun of the Indien-Panzer and Leopard Prototype (which is itself a licensed version of the 90 mm gun one gets on the M46 Patton iirc). The 90 mm gun wouldn’t be good enough for tier 10 though, as it’s basically only a modest improvement over the long 88; the vehicle would be a perfect premium tank at tier 8, but it would need to have an unhistorical gun (possibly a buffed 105 mm L7A3 from the Leopard to give it a ridiculous DPM) in order to be even remotely competitive.

  35. Slightly off-topic but…Waffentrager Auf Pz.38 for tier 8 german premium TD!
    And I probably wrote that name in the wrongest way imaginable.

  36. If the Panther WTs wouldn’t work because they don’t have enough armor, then why don’t they make a E-50 or E-50M WT?

    It probably won’t have as long of a 15cm as your StuG Maus suggestion, but would have better maneuverability. The camo would be better than the WTE-100, but still not be good enough to snipe from bushes for the entire game. The armor would be better than the Panther WTs, but not enough that it can’t be penetrated with standard tier 10 ammo. Oh and no autoloader.

    Here’s my idea of what the gun would be like:

    15cm L/50 (or somewhere close to that)
    Penetration – 260/340/90
    Damage – 750/750/1100
    Accuracy – 0.33
    Aimtime – 2.5s
    RPM – 3.8

    Maybe it could also have the 128mm L/61 of the WT ausf IV with 0.31 accuracy and 5.6 RPM with the 15cm L/50 to be something that can be researched.

    What are your thoughts Stalker?

    • Armor literally was irrelevant to the WT project, it was all about getting chassis’ that could be mass produced to deploy powerful guns to the front. The other hurdle is that the WT Panther needs upgrades that aren’t guns that can be researched, which tier 10s are usually pretty lax about. And that goes without mentioning how the entire WT line can’t provide the WT Panther with it’s HL 234

  37. I personally have problem regarding the suggestions for a replacement of the Waffentraeger E-100.

    It adds nothing new. Basically what you’re suggesting is another JPz E-100, a big, slow, and cumbersome armored box with a really big gun, and no camo to speak of. This goes entirely against the whole idea of adding the Waffentragers in the first place: to offer an alternative to the big, bulky assault guns with more mobile but more fragile vehicles. I’m not saying WG couldn’t use something based on an E-100 or Maus chassis, but it would have to be something different.

    A possible idea I have is sort of a blend between the proposed ideas above and the current WT E-100. It would be an E-100′s hull with the sideskirts taken off to save weight (like on the existing WT E-100), and instead of a rear-turreted autoloader would have either a rear-mounted casemate (basically making it a smaller, faster JPz E-100), or a frontally-mounted casemate. The engine would either be the same as the WT E-100′s or something of comparable power, like the DB 603A used on the Maus.

    Now, there’s some advantages and disdavantages for each casemate location. The rear casemate would limit gun depression quite a bit, but it would make the vehicle decent at sidescraping if combined with good horizontal traverse angles, plus the shorter overall length of the vehicle will make it easier to hide once gun barrels poking through bushes can get one’s self detected. A frontal casemate, by comparison would give it better gun depression and it would be very heavily-sloped, like a tier 10 Jagdpanther, making the entire front with the exception of the LFP effectively impenetrable, but it would be lacking in other stats to compensate for that.

    Now as for the guns, well, like I said, it needs to be different from the JPz E-100, so I would imagine that, like the E-100 heavy tank it’s based on (and the current WT E-100), it gets two options, a 128 mm gun and a 150 mm gun, but with the key difference of them being standard, manually-loaded guns instead of drum-fed autoloaders.

    The 128 mm gun would retain the incredible accuracy of the existing WT E-100, and while not an autoloader would possess higher DPM on this vehicle than on any other vehicle with the same gun; A ROF of around 5.5-5.8 rounds per minute would make this with the 128 mm gun into a sort of German Object 263, exchanging lower alpha damage with a higher rate of fire, making taking riskier shots (i.e. trying to snipe a Batchat 25t going full speed in an erratic pattern at 300 meters away) less punishing if necessary. Alternatively, one can go for a slightly derpier 150 mm gun and play it as something similar to an Object 704 or the tier 9 version of the Foch, only at tier 10..

    • Alternatively, just go with the Kanonenjagdpanzer with a buffed version of the Leopard’s 105 mm gun to make it competitive at tier 10 and you almost have a tier 10 E-25..

  38. Problem is its just one more Super Heavy no turret TD that competes primarily with its own races TD.

    Unless you want to make one the “Fast” and the other “Slow” one this is boring IMO.

    One is gonna have better armor and or DPM and that will be the one to chose and NO ONE will play the other.

    Why not make the Maus that hunts have a turret? Why not make a casemate that arcs 90 like the E4?

  39. SS, taking your idea:
    you want it to be on par with ussr TDs armor wise
    we know the maus is slow as fuck
    its huge, so camo is allso bad.
    you want it with less DPM than any T10td and nearly half of the tortoise. (which is t9 and just as slow, just as huge, and its armor is just as bad as your suggestion)

    in what parameter should it excell then to make it vaible?

  40. The WT auf pz IV could easily have been a T10. Right now, as a T9, it performs incredibly well in T10 games. likewise, the Rhm does very well in T9 games. I think the solution is very simple indeed: The 8 and 9 guys all go one tier up and they get a new tier 8 candidate. The tier 7 TD could probably go to tier 8 as well, however, that would mean it really needs a better stock gun.

    And no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with TD’s with good camo. As long as shooting their gun gets them spotted at reasonable distances, things should work out just fine.

  42. A TD where in it uses E-75/E-50 hull + a slope front armor with Jagdtiger top gun would be nice.

  44. I sincerely think this “project” is ridiculous.
    First point is that the layout would likely be kept – why overhaul the entire vehicle apart the suspension, if the Maus tank already offers a front-engine layout with all the advantages?
    Second: why does the side.view seem to have E-100-like side skirts when Maus already has completely different flat side skirts of much greater thickness than E-100.
    Third: It was mentioned that Jagd-Maus, or whatever would be the name for it, would possibly be an alternative hull for the current JgPz E-100.
    Fourth: Why should a line, consisting of lightly armoured stealthy manoeuvrable Waffenträgers end up if a huge 20kmh fast beast?