Source: http://world-of-kwg.livejournal.com/304930.html
Hello everyone,
Storm once again made a post, in which he asks players about their opinion, this time about the “balance”, specifically what they think about:
- balance of classes as a whole
- balance of various tiers and issues in it
- balance of individual vehicles
- system issues of balance, for example “too much viewrange” or “too much penetration”
- system issues of game mechanics, for example camo, or penetration mechanism
He also notes that this topic is NOT about MM.
From the discussion:
- the 25 percent RNG in the game (for example damage, penetration) does NOT use even spread (SS: there is a higher chance to get the average damage than one of the extremes), therefore it won’t be reduced, Storm think it’s just fine
- there is a general idea for WoT to reduce everyone’s viewrange apart from LT’s
- the change above is not the “big spotting system change” promised earlier, it’s just a small part of it
- the rule where both teams have to have the same amount of scouts (with tolerance) will not be removed
- if ALL the premium tanks were to get limited MM, it would come with a nerf, because otherwise some would be too OP (“pwning without end is cool for only one side”)
- +/-2 MM will not be reduced as a whole
- Bulldog model (regarding proper depression) will be fixed in 9.4
- Storm considers the majority of the maps to be fine (apart from some individual map issues)
- Storm on artillery DPM buff proposal: “If the damage output of artillery will be the same as the one of other classes, artillery will dominate. We had that already.”
And what do YOU think about balance of various vehicles? Will link the discussion to Storm later (if it’s not full of profanities and such crap, so if you want your feedback to be linked to Storm, please be polite).
Two words. Armour is useless. With all that happy gold spam, that WG has no intention in reducing (either hardcap on the shells amount, or reduce gold shells damage with current penetration etc.), there is really no serious benefit in an armour on tank, and therefore mobile tanks are OP.
And the stupid autoloaders, do not get me started on these idiots…
Gold ammo – reduce damage done. Maybe -25%.
You still will penetrate but will hurt less (innuendo? :D).
If HEAT has reduced damage compared to HE, APCR should have reduced damage too.
Some tanks have APCR as standard ammo . Be carefull what you wish for .
He means where APCR is the premium ammo on the tank.
Yes but those tanks have no AP counterpart to compare with.
That idea is very good, but too many people will CRY ?! Its sad.
High tier TDs – too much accuracy. Big alpha and pen should come at a price and it’s plain annoying to see your speeding LT/MT torn apart by TDs camping in bushes 400 metres away.
Tier III – meeting tier V in tier III is like meeting tier X tanks in tier VI.
III and V – 250 HP, 60 pen, 60 alpha versus 650 HP, 120 pen 160 alpha
VI and X – 800 HP, 140 pen, 220 alpha versus 2000 pen, 250 pen, 500 alpha
For the same reason tier VI doesn’t see tier X, tier III shouldn’t encounter tier V.
Perhaps add a hidden “accuracy distribution” stat – 0 would mean equal distribution of all possible results, positive values – more to center, less to sides, negative values – more to sides, less to center. Good way to buff some snipers (e.g. poor old Leo) and get rid of magic derping over 500 metres (KV-2 anyone?).
25% RNG – I don’t care if it’s normal or even distribution, extreme values still can happen and devaluate skill. 10% RNG would add some randomness, but without stupid results (as in, 330 HP tomato surviving a 390 HP shot and dealing 500 damage in return – player should be punished for bad tactics and carelessness, not for RNG).
And remove arty. If not, then please make me encounter them more often in my LTs than in HTs. :P
Disagree on high tier TDs being too accurate. Those that are truly accurate, like the JagdTiger, or Object 263 have lower alpha that those with 150/152/155 mm guns.
Furthermore, the alpha for 150/152/155mm guns is pretty much no higher than the TDs that have them at the lower tiers.
For the truly high alpha TDs, the JPE-100 and FV 215b 183, they have long aim times, average accuracy, large and slow (JPE-100), no armour ( FV 215b 183) and have very little camo.
I find it quite an exaggeration that you can get hit from 400m while speeding around.
“I find it quite an exaggeration that you can get hit from 400m while speeding around.”
happend to me on a test server.. well actually I did it, oneshot amx 13.90 in my fv-183 … but that was pure luck, nothing else. IMHO theres nothing wrong with this kind of luck.. its not like it happens every game..
“but without stupid results (as in, 330 HP tomato surviving a 390 HP shot and dealing 500 damage in return – player should be punished for bad tactics and carelessness, not for RNG).”
How often does this happens to you ? 1 in 1000 games ?
if more often, well what if they are not tomatoes ;)
Pretty much. I think it was one freak incident which pretty much cements his confirmation bias that its happens all the time.
It sadly happens way to often. How many game have I lost because of the RNG? Countless. I also have won a lot, but those victories were as undeserved as the defeats.
I think accuracy is random enough; there is no need for +/- 25% damage and penetration.
A balanced RNG would be way better than the current all random system. The chance for a high roll should be significantly higher after a few bad rolls and the chances for a high roll should be significantly lower after a few high rolls.
Furthermore I would recommend to increase the HP pool of low tier tanks while fighting against higher tier tanks.
For example: Tanks two tiers lower than the highest tier will get a 40 % bonus to their HP, tanks one tier lower will get 20 %. Light tanks 3 tiers lower will get 60%.
The complete idea of artillery and how it is used in the game should be reworked. They are just annoying, not of a real value in battles, RNG dependent and not really fun to play. If the players of other classes and also the arty players themself hate the vehicles, something is wrong.
Just a few ideas for arties:
- no realtime bird’s-eye view in arty mode; instead only ghost models with a low polling rate
- a direct fire mode as a compensation for the above
- burst fire to bombard small areas instead of single shot perfect precision sniping (which is unrealistic)
- a more supporting role –> detracking, module damage and the destruction of cover
I am an advocate on this, I would think that if you reduce the damage that gold rounds do, then you obtain a better balance in the game. If you want to perform simply with skill, using AP and taking the extra second to aim at a weak spot then you should be rewarded with additional damage. If you are popping out and simply shooting the tank, almost anywhere, to get a pen, then you should be penalized with reduced damage.
If this is implemented then you will see gold rounds being used on a more tactical basis rather than spam. If you know a low roll will kill the tank, use gold or HE, if you are in a tank that has no way in hell of penning the enemy and you CANNOT reposition because you already put yourself in a bad spot, or were cornered there, shoot gold.
Basically a skilled player with AP versus a less skill player shooting gold, would have a better overall advantage to winning a one on one battle and therefore being skilled can be rewarded.
The problem of reducing damage on “gold” rounds would actually mean that WG would need to rebalance ALL GUN’ damage!
An enormous amount of work and “the thing” WG devs JUST DO NOT WANT!
What? The guns are balanced without gold ammo in mind. So really, nerfing prem ammo shouldn’t affect balance at all.
Well the thing is then that you heavily penalise bottom tiers and tanks with poor penetration. A comet has little chance against an E-75 if it has to engage front on e.g. on himmelsdorf even with premium shells. A t69 gets 173 pen. And it is virtually impossible to play without some HEAT. These tanks would be in effect getting a massive nerf. And playing top tiers in particular top tier heavies would become a ROFL stomp because if you are in an IS-7 it is virtuallu impossible to be penned by tier 8s with regular rounds, yes even in lower glacis unless you make a huge mistake.
Yeah, credits for gold ammo has made a massive change to T6 and above.
Please buff my Type 59… It was a great tank, now it’s average and not a prize tank anymore.
I agree, currently if you are in a HT and have to face off against a medium one on one, if you are less than full health it is difficult to do. I do not believe that a Heavy tank should have to be scared of a single medium, but that is how it is currently. Two mediums, yes, three forget about it, but a single medium, the HT should win most encounters.
are you kidding? If HT takes 2-3 meds to take down, who in their right minds would play meds?
That’s the problem with HT players – they expect invincibility, they don’t give a damn about balance, they just want to press R three times, bounce and kill stuff with one hand while other classes have to work their butts to even dream of damaging them. They whine about arty players but they expect the same “one handed” stuff, it seems.
That is how it should be, a one on one confrontation between a HT and a MT, the medium tank should lose barring misses and both being full health. You sir are just another advocate that armor should mean nothing… HT rely on armor, if a medium tank can take you out one on one, then that means that armor means nothing.
So for you to think that HT players expect invincibility that is not the case, but they do have to rely on armor that is ineffective.
Dude, nobody sane would play anything but HTs in your scenario, because everything else would simply be ineffective. Two-three meds to take a HT down… who would play meds then, masochists? why would you gimp yourself with an ineffective POS that can’t even dream of competing with HTs?
World of HTs – no thanks
All classes should be playable and the game is most fun when all classes are present in healthy proportions IMHO.
It is hard to believe that somebody would argue that a tier 10 HT should NOT be able to rather easily take out a tier 10 MT in a one-on-one brawl in an open area. The heavy should always be able to pen the medium while the medium should NOT always be able to pen the heavy. The medium tank has to flank and use it’s speed, camo and maneuverability, but one-on-one in a brawl a HT should win that fight easily.
Why play heavies if you can out-brawl them in a MT.
With your proposed changes, having the small, corridor-ish maps (“flanking”, lol) in mind, what’s the point of playing anything over a heavy tank?
Sorry mate, you’re biased and it shows. HTs are already the only playable class on maps like Severogorsk. “camo” and “flanking” mean nothing there. More and more maps are like that, too.
Nobody would bother with meds if they couldn’t pen HTs frontally on the maps we currently have, sorry. Nobody at all. People would mass-dump meds and play T110E5 as the next best thing.
Tomatoes man. “I drive beeg heavy tonk, nathing can hurts me”. As if there aren’t enough “closed” type maps where HTs dominate meds already, he wants meds at a further disadvantage.
If you can’t flank with a med on a city map, then probably it’s time to learn how to play a med.
I call this bullshit.
I bought my beloved E 75 back after a year and a half and it still kicks ass hard. Bouncing shells with UFP is easy as all hell, and there’s no goldspam incoming at me as you’d might expect. I have Dmg received announcer so I know what types of shells are being fired, huge majority of them are regular shells.
May this game which I played today be an example of how it is not gold ammo that is the problem, it is your skill (or, rather, the lack of it):
http://wotreplays.com/site/1247775#fjords-haren-e-75
Armour isn’t useless? From stats we see heavy armour vehicles gets most exp and credits, win rate may not be great but even then they still get a lot of exp and credits.
The Waffentrager phobia in WG is stupid; just because tier 8~10 is doing well does mean those below is. God Dicker Max is doing worst than ARL V39 if you look at the more skilled players.
Imo, WG’s approach of rebalance regardless of player skill is stupid.
2 realistic solutions to gold ammo.
APCR: Reduce damage. Percentage unknown, but at least 25%. Same reload. APCR rounds were sub-caliber.
HEAT: Reduce accuracy. HEAT shells suffered from accuracy problems, particularly with rifled guns. And the effectiveness of HEAT is also severely affected by the spinning of the rounds.
Scout are BS balanced.
Some are utterly crap, some are OP to no end.
Examples: Chaffee – super crap, ELC – borderline OP. Not to mention Bulldog…
Arty gets too much damage done from their tiers from one shell starting at tier 7-8. Ssrsly – tier 8 artyfaggot can oneshot T10. GG balance departament.
Tolerance should be equal – equal amount of top tiers, mid tiers and lowest tiers.
And platoon MM is just joke – enemy gets top tier platoon, and what we? Lowest tier platoon. And no compensation with stronger tanks.
ELC is a really crap scout, however the cannon and the camouflage makes it a really fun Tank Destroyer… Otherwise I agree with most tier 7 and 8 scouts needing adjustments big time as they are not balanced against their own tiers properly.
ELC – tier 5 – 170 pen – low as fuck – fast – good camo.
Your WR is probably high as your IQ.
Some are not balanced – especially chinese.
dont forget the limited gun traverse (vertical/horizontal), the inaccurate gun – also you are fast, the reticle goes out more, than if you were rolling at 30kph, 10sec/240 damage is not much, no armor and low hp, scout matchmaking.
its the same as hellcat, you pwn only if you are generally good. noob elc drivers are rekt after 3 min
ELC is a great tank, got everything for scouting, but not op.
Its hidden soft stats on the gun are some of the worst in the game and the reload is so long that I feel 2000 damage is its ceiling within a game.
Not really, I’ve done more than 2000 damage on some occassions, even reaching 3000 once. Still, ELC is an awfully underpowered tank for its matchmaking. In theory, it should perform just as well as Hellcat. It doesn’t. Here are the WN8 expected stats (based on average players’ performance):
ELC: 456.92 damage, 0.66 frags, 2.64 , spots, 0.73 defense, 53.91% WR
Hellcat: 925.08 damage, 1.23 frags, 1.51 spots, 1.34 defense, 55.57 % WR
So Hellcat pretty much deals twice as much damage, destroys twice as many targets and gets twice as many defense points as ELC.
So is ELC OP? I don’t think so. Still a nice tank to play, notwithstanding its minimal carrying ability and complete dependence on team. Got 3 rings on it. :)
your IQ is suffering also. ELC is not a pure scout.
ELC was never supposed to be a scout it’s a “Chasseur de char” (Tank destroyer) in french nomenclature.
ELC crap? Try play Chi-Ri on tier 9 :P
Srsly? ELC is one of the best scouts in the game. Probably only better players then wot average can see its potentional. And it isnt on the borderline of OP. Right played it IS OP as hell
‘only better players then wot average can see its potentional.’ Boom! Correct, therefore not OP.
Yah, I have a kv3 and love it even though no one says its good but it is if u know how to play it. any tank can be used effectivelyas long as the player knows his stuff.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. ELC is a bad scout, it is missing a turret, so no arty hunting, no view range, 360 is pathetic, the radio is utter garbage, just 360m is just bad bad bad for an effective scout, it does not matter you spoted the enemy, if nobody can receive your radio transmission, the gun is bad for a scout, a scout needs accurate pew pew guns, not slow aiming, slow reloading retardgun. I bet you’re one of those suiciscouts that nobody wants or needs. HERP DERP, I scouted, game over at 14:15. Useless.
Victory!
Battle: Windstorm
Vehicle: ELC AMX
Experience received: 5 317 (x2 for the first victory each day)
Credits received: 52 348 (compensation for damage caused by allies: 1 206)
Battle achievements: Mastery Badge: “Ace Tanker”
WN8: 19 027 (100)
2300 damage and 4 kills in t6. Use your camo and be patient.
Simple as that
I don’t understand why people bitch so much about arty, if arty is in the game, don’t sit still…. move and keep moving, use a hill or rock to your advantage, stay “Arty safe!”. If you do this then you have a better chance of simply getting splashed which is less damage than a typical tank, in most cases.
Don’t know about you guys, but all this bitching and you know, how often do you see an arty at the top of the damage list, yes it happens, but not typically. The more skilled the arty, the more you better move and stay unpredictable.
If you are ALWAYS getting blown up by arty, maybe you should look at your play style versus bitch about arty, arty is going to go after one of three things first, either the slowest tank, The tank that is sitting still, or if they are gone, the best skilled player on the enemy team.
And before you flame me, NO, I do not play arty, my highest tier is 7, I think, and I do have 10 tier 10 tanks.
“don’t sit still”
“stay “Arty safe!””
Pick one.
If you can be behind a rock and stay arty safe do it, if you are in the open then by not sitting still you are being arty safe….
“if you are in the open then by not sitting still you are being arty safe….”
Perhaps there’s a problem with your understanding of the word “safe”. It means: “secure from liability to harm, injury, danger, or risk”.
Not only you still very much CAN be harmed by farty, it also often means little cover from actual tanks and reduction of firepower to effectively zero.
You’re actually hurting yourself far more.
ELC is a good tank with extreme penetration, but it is very situational and HIGHLY team dependent. Most good players like to play it to farm WN8 because most players suck in it so badly that you can pen a couple shots and have a 2000 WN8 game.
I agree with that.
Currently, it’s easier for arty to shoot active and aggressive players who (of course) get spotted first and are (of course) closer to arty.
The real campers are arty-safe because they hug a rock or a house and/or stay so far away from battles that they are never spotted.
So arty, as it is now, still promotes camping and makes open maps far less interesting for heavies and meds because there are only a few places where those can go without getting blasted.
It is, of course, still possible to avoid arty annihilation with unpredictable and constant driving, but only to a certain limit : If your tank is too slow, if there are more than 1 or 2 artys, if they get lucky or if you want to stop to shoot, you are dead.
The purpose of arty is to deter campers, but it’s not working as it is now.
I have an idea to fix that :
-Increase arty rate of fire A LOT, decrease shells price, increase shells capacity, increase vertical firing arc : Now arty can reliably blindshoot usual campers positions and make a real pyrotechnic eyecandy ;
AND
-Increase shells flying time, make aiming slower, decrease accuracy :
Now arty can’t shoot moving targets ;
AND
-Make accuracy reduction for shooting NULL (or, if possible, negative : the more you shoot, the more you are accurate, like real artys).
With those changes, arty could deliver a devastating barrage on static positions, but wouldn’t be able to engage moving targets.
biggest issues for scouts compared to the times when scouts were great:
(scout is not meant to be the same as light tank – amx 13 90 may be used for scouting or it can be used efficiently as flanker/damage dealer without spotting for anyone)
1. less arty and slower aiming arty means that 1 short peek will not be enough to get decent damage by spotting – instead of 3-4 arties shooting we have 1 arty shootiing and 1 waiting for the target to be spotted again
2. increased accuracy means scouts are way too easy to kill
3, terrain makes scouts useless on many maps. It’s not about corridors only, on many maps spotting tanks far away is useless since terrain prevents your teammates to shoot enemy, while when your teammates can shoot enemy, the distance is much lower then 400 metres.
Possible solutions:
decreased general viewrange but keeping scouts viewrange
assisted damage counted for best spotter only
targets lit up by scout are seen longer then targets spotted by other tanks
decreased general accuracy
reworking of some maps to provide more places for long range engagements
adding terrain irregularities that allow small tanks to hide but big tanks will have their turrets visible
After tier 1 and 2 the tier 3 tanks (especially the weaker and slower “light” tanks -> can’t be used as scouts) get in really deep water with T5s… it’s a little bit too early I think…
And I really think most of the T7 TDs right now have too low HP, even T6 heavies got more… Some T7 heavies have almost twice as much HP… And since most of the T7 TDs don’t have significantly better/bigger guns or better armor (or even better camo?) than their heavy counterparts…
They should have at least 900-950 HP
I agree.
MM should only put tier 1′s against tier 1′s even if it is 10 against 10. A tier 2 should NEVER get +2 MM.
Tier’s 3 and 4 should have more +1/-1 MM. A PZ1C can’t pen a KV1 or T1 or most tier 5′s even with Gold in the rear so most tier 3′s just suicide in a tier 5 game.
A tier 5 can load gold and pen a tier 7, but a tier 4 even firing gold struggles against a tier 6 so tiers 3 and 4 need more preferential MM.
Also, SLOW French tanks like the AMX in a tier 6 game is just comical.
Just a note – tier 2 never sees tier 4.
And limiting T1s to 0 MM is just bad – T2 are easily disposed off by properly played T1s, I don’t see an issue there and it prepares you for higher tiers.
UR really clueless about this game.
A tier 1 is mostly IMPOTENT in a tier 2 game, especially a new player. Sure, a seal clubber in a tier one with an experienced crew and full equipment shooting gold can outplay a tier 2 NOOB, but an equal player in a tier 2 will easily kill and equal player in a tier 1. When I played at tier 1 as a NOOB I did not even use any equipment and I had a 75% crew so I was cannon fodder in a tier 2 game as a ALL new players.
Do you actually play the game or are you just trolling?
It is the same on all tiers.
In a tier 8 I can frequently outplay a tier 9. But it is an uphill battle. If wer are of equal skill, he should win most battles.
Remove sky cancer.
make lights the only class that has 400+ View range
Medium 105MM gun’s alpha down to 320(100MM Tier 9/10 guns do 300)
First remove arty means “wellcome camping time” specially when they made scouts TRUE team´s eyes.
Reduce alpha??? hell NO!!! increase tanks HP!!! god is so hard understand this??? the problem is not the gun damage is the LOW HP compared with the tanks HP… if they increase 25-50% tanks HP win all, WG because players shot more and players because survive more and can asume risk… wait see 6th sense for all is going to be a camper fest specially with no or few arty and a lot of TDs…
I think is a little late to add masive rebalance by classes… specially when maps has a great impact on this.
I disagree, I am the center of attention for arty in 90% of my games while my whole team camp base undisturbed, arty would help to make the teams more aggressive knowing that when they attack in the open they will not be instantly one shot.
Thats the thing – arty hits you for huge dmg when you MOVE.
If you move WELL arty doesnt hit you… practically all hits i see from arty are over hard campers… yes, arty can hit a tank in movement but for everyone of this hits i see tons of fail arty hits that do 0 damage.
If you want remove damage from arty you remove arty from game and you simple made games a camper fest… battles need 1-2 arties per side to mantein fat ass in movement… and well remember that NOT ALL MAPS are friendly with arty… a lot of them are now heavy or strong TDs friendly.
Arty makes in high Tier Games full of campers. Because 80% of the map you cant use for an attack since sky cancer can get you there.
lel
Now that most matches have 1 arty per side AT MOST on average, there still as much camping.
WHAT BLACK MAGIC IS THIS?
Ah yes, of course: campers camp, no matter what the enemy team has.
Arty in the game isnt a problem in the game its the whining people that hate indirect fire weapons.U can see them they hit u just like getting shot by a BL-10 by an isu or obj 704 thats out of view range. People have hated sneeky or “invisible threats” like snipers and submarines ever since WW2 or earlier. In the Vietnam war when a us sniper was captured his balls were cut off and shoved in his mouth and killed. In WoT thats replaced with sad whining players whining and raging in the game and in the forums and blogs.
Maybe because wot is supposed to be fun and war is fucking survival time.
You kidding. I never ever see arty hit campers. Arty always hits attacking players. Especially fast meds get it over and over again from arty while TDs are sitting back in the bush, invisible and safe.
First remove arty means “wellcome camping time”
Saying that only proves how much of an idiot you are. Sky cancer doesn’t prevent camping, it causes camping.
Because non-arty games are always full of movement ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Campers going to camp. Arty causes even more camping.
Yes, like that tier 9 game in Murovanka, where for 3 minutes NOTHING happened (nobody moved for an inch) and the battle ended in a draw.
And there was only 1 arty per side….
Idiots camp anyway, but you can outmaneuver and kill them.
The moment you try this when enemy has arty, it kills you.
Yes, WG is soooooooo wrong. Arty creates camping. U put 8 tier 10 arty in a game and nobody wants to even move because if you are spotted first on your team you are dead.
Because non-arty games are always full of movement ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
________________
Yes, they are. Camping retard will camp whether there is arty or not, whereas other people that actually prefer moving and playing the game will have much more freedom w/o cancerfags drooling over their heads. Btw, you are a fucking moron.
Edit: http://i.imgur.com/JLjeRF0.png
Yup, not only cancerfag, but also a sealclubbing cancerfag. How’s that SU-26 nerf going on for you now that you can’t 1shot everything in a battle, you fucking piece of shit?
Su-26 just permanent tracks now and pecks away makes people whine more kinda like the lef and oh boy is it satisfaction hearing there cries of anger and frustration because they have no map awareness. Don’t like arty then go elsewhere you won’t be missed. And don’t bother commenting back I won’t read them. Have a nice day
Scout tanks have very competitive, and useless members on every tier, look at tier4 for example – luchs, pz38na, m5, t-50, a-20 is not a scout anymore… the only good scout is the luchs, the other 3 is garbage even against their own tier.
or tier6: 59-16 has the same penetration as tier4 tanks, amx12 is not that bad, while t37 is clearly above all (not op).
when you are on high tier with a scout (7-8 against t9-10), you may feel powerless when a batchat spots you across the map, beats your speed downhill and kills you in 2 shots…
so having increased viewrange for them is a really good start.. viewrange, and camo bonus, also some buff to unpopular ones, and then they are fine.
yea, I draw a lot of tier 5 games in a Cruiser 4 which is ridiculous. The cruiser 4 should be reclassed as a medium.
Hardcap artillery to 3 per side.
Give artillery +3 mm. ie. Tier 6 arty gets into tier 7,8 and 9 games only.
Reduce TD view range
Reduce gold APCR and HEAT damage to less than silver alternative.
Tier 6 arty gets in tier 7-8-9 matches.
Tier 7 arty gets in tier 8-9-10 matches.
Tier 8 arty gets in tier 9-10 matches.
Tier 9 arty gets in tier 10 matches.
Tier 10 arty gets in tier 10 matches.
Congratulations, your stupid mm rule just broke tier 9 and 10 games again, there will be a arty flood all the time, every time.
Please, never work for Wargaming.
tier 4 balance is an absolute disaster.
The power disparity between tier 4 heavies and tier 4 TD’s is absolutely obscene; even the Sau 40 shits all over the DW2 and B1. The heavy’s pref-MM doesn’t even come close to covering it.
Also tier 4 still has some of the worst tanks in the game. AMX 40 needs a huge firepower buff to at least be on par with the Valentine. The 50mm L/60 and French 47mm SA-37 need their pen buffed to levels at least on par with or exceeding the Japanese 47mm gun, so at least then Panzer III’s, VK2001D’s, DW2′s, and B1′s have *SOME* Chance of engaging Matilda’s without resorting to gold spam.
B1 needs more than 310 hitpoints. For something that can’t take cover at all it does need to be able to take a few more hits than it does.
the real question is: who the fuck cares about tier 4?
I do, obviously
On the other hand, I don’t give a rat’s ass about t10 so why don’t we ignore balance there too?
I do, since tier 4 is really important to beginners who are starting to understand the game. I play some tier 4′s because I want tier 5 tanks. I remember I wanted to get the KV-1, but had to go through the T-28 back then. That was AWFUL.
Quite good points, but i think that AMX40 needs major buff to softs stats of the gun(accuracy penalties, a bit of rof): if the handling becomes bearable, the whole tank will start to be usable. It also needs an entry to junior tank companies, because as a light (ekhem) it can’t…
Historically the AMX 40 was a medium tank(more HP, and the AMX 40 doesn’t get camouflage bonuses due to being a light anyway), and had a 220 horsepower engine. A 47mm SA 37 gun which it could be provided with, which historically had 106mm of penetration at 100m. Given a 220 horsepower engine, a much superior gun, and medium HP, it could be workable.
I totally agree with the SAu 40. The stock gun is just not possible to be used, come on: 60 mm of pen. Then comes the long 75, which is awful too: Low RoF, 100 mm pen (average) and 110 damage (ok). Then finally, after almost 4000 exp: The 105 mm howitzer. Not great, but is more doable. 9 second reload is worth the damage. 280 HP is downright horrible, the vehicle is very slow and sluggish. This tank will NEVER win ANY battle with ANY tier V tank unless you are lucky. Heck, you are even lucky if you get at least 1 kill.
In my eyes, this is the most unbalanced tank in the game as it just becomes unplayable in comparision to other tier 4 TD’s. The Marder 38t has better RoF, the Hetzer has a better derp and better armor. The SU-85I has a MUCH better gun with more pen and damage. The T40 has either a huge derp gun or a stealthy 75 mm gun. The M8A1 has a turret and is very fast.
What does the SAu 40 have? NOTHING SPECIAL. No good RoF with the 75 mm guns, no good camo rating, no good pen or damage output with the 75 mm guns, no turret, no speed and no armor.
Funny thing is, because the vehicle only has 280 HP, I usually get the ‘fire for effect’ medal because I deal more damage than I have HP.
But seriously, the SAu 40 needs some serious buffs in general soft stats to make it much MUCH more pleasant.
The AMX40 should have pref MM. Putting it in a tier 6 game is just comical.
I did not know there were any tier 4 heavies?????????, LOL.
Tier 4 is really the worst tier in the game which is why tier 5 is so much fun. A tier 5 heavy does not have anything to fear from tier 4′s expect the TD’s and tier 3′s are completely impotent at tier 5.
Rotfl. The SAu needs to be removed to be pleasant.
It’s like a retarded Hetzer, everything is worse – armor, gun, mobility, camo. The only thing better is view range – wooohooo.
It’s a TD version of AMX 40 – grind it through and forget it exists. Even though the AMX 40 could be enjoyable while top tier – can’t say the same thing about this turd.
Yup. Add a new tier 3 TD (Belgian TD with the same 47 mm gun as the UE 57). And turn the UE 57 into a tier IV TD with a 6 pdr and 2 sec reload.
Artys needs some buffs. Not big ones, just small ones:
- Less dispersion while turning the hull/gun
- MINOR reload time buff (~5%)
- and some (or all) artys should get shorter gun range (for example, 1350m range with tier 6 arty its just stupid)
I made a suggestion about short-range HE shells for artys that would make playing arty more challenging and diverse (http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/438036-suggestion-short-range-he-shells-for-arty/)
And i saying all this after thousands of artybattles after 8.6
As Woras mentioned, a lot of if not most tier 6+ arties can one shot equal tiers HT, or when 7/8 can one shot tier 9 and 10 HT’s. No other tank on the same tier vs the same can do that with one shot.
So, globally buffing them will lead to the unbalance the 8.6 nerf tried to fix…albeit it fixed it incorrectly IMO….but still.
If you had said seriously decrease alpha and module dmg with your mentioned ROF buff, I would have agreed with you :P
But it’s good to have different viewpoint…too bad WG won’t listen to us EU players
In my short range HE shells suggestion, the shorter ranged shells should have less damage, pen, and splash.
And arty oneshots are VERY rare, especially at high tiers (and i dont think that a t7 arty can oneshot t9 or 10 HTs, maybe the S-51 can but not the other t7s)
But they are also VERY blown out of proportion, because players always notice them more.
It would be interesting to see some statistics about artillery one-shots, compared to other classes (ammoracks from full health).
Arty needs a HUGE nerf.
First of all, arty is not realistic in the game. In real life, arty did not shoot at individual tanks. Secondly, arty should not be able to one-shot tanks same tier or one tier lower so alpha on all arty should be nerfed to 1/3 the HP of the average HP’s of a heavy tank of the same tier. Moreover, arty should have more of a flat trajectory to allow tanks to have more cover in the game. No arty should have an auto-loader. The roof armor of all tanks in the game but especially heavy tanks should be buffed to prevent what now are almost automatic arty penetrations. Lastly, the Spaul Liner should be buffed to increase direct armor values against HE by 25% and also reduce HE damage by 50%.
I would provide one small buff to arty and give a 10% larger splash radius.
“arty should not be able to one-shot tanks same tier or one tier lower”
Why? Do you know what does a 130kg shell, landing on roof of IS-7, going through and 36kg of its explosives going “boom” inside?
” No arty should have an auto-loader.”
Especially those who had it IRL, gods forbid.
“The roof armor of all tanks in the game but especially heavy tanks should be buffed to prevent what now are almost automatic arty penetrations.”
Because we all know WG will do that, considering the armour thickness is the NUMBER ONE HISTORICALLY ACCURATE HARD STAT. But yes, let’s give Maus 500mm roof armour.
“Lastly, the Spaul Liner should be buffed to increase direct armor values against HE by 25% and also reduce HE damage by 50%.”
And weight how much, 50 tons for heavy?
You are speaking utter nonsense…
Do u know what the chances are in real life of a 130KG shell landing on the roof an ANY tank?
Astronomical.
NYACHAN, this is an ARCADE GAME. I would increase roof armor of all heavy tanks and increase the spaul liner with NO increase in the weights of the tank. WG does this ALL THE TIME. They will buff or nerf the tanks armor but not change the weight of the tank. The weight of each tank in the game is COMPLETELY arbitrary and set by WG and has NOTHING to do with the armor or the components on the tank, DUH!
Also, ur comment about 500 MM is ridiculous. I am talking about buffing roof armor of heavy tanks by maybe 50-75 MM, not 500.
YOU are the one who is completely CLUELESS.
Nya, do you have any idea how ineffective arty was IRL vs tanks ? No, you don’t. Arty heavy barrage (over 1 hour) vs batalion of tanks, maybe 1-2 destroyed tanks, no more.
If they intend to respect historical gun and armor values THEN THEY SHOULD FUCKING RESPECT THE COMPLETE LACK OF PIN-POINT ACCURACY THE ARTY NEVER HAD. That is why arty is OP in this game.
“It would be interesting to see some statistics about artillery one-shots, compared to other classes (ammoracks from full health).”
I want to see it too.
The arty should be removed from the game.
The only cure for this cancer would be reducing its alpha massively.
One shotting equal tier HT while wanking safe in a bush is just retarded. It’s like some developer of an FPS came up with a brilliant idea “hey, let’s introduce a feature where player just drops dead in the middle of the battle and someone gets a frag for it”. I wonder how long he would be working in such company.
Agreed, but have you been on the TS? RU players LOVE arty. On the TS it is routine for there to be 8 arty in a game so if RU players love it then it will NOT be removed from the game. The most we can hope is that arty is nerfed and I agree totally with the alpha nerf. A RED arty player (most of them are red and orange) sitting in a bush one-shotting a purple player in a heavy tank from half-way across the map is just disgusting. It takes ZERO talent to play arty which is why you see so many subpar players in arty. They were bad at everything else so they decide to play arty.
NYACHAN, this is an ARCADE GAME. I would increase roof armor of all heavy tanks and increase the spaul liner with NO increase in the weights of the tank. WG does this ALL THE TIME. They will buff or nerf the tanks armor but not change the weight of the tank. The weight of each tank in the game is COMPLETELY arbitrary and set by WG and has NOTHING to do with the armor or the components on the tank, DUH!
Also, ur comment about 500 MM is ridiculous. I am talking about buffing roof armor of heavy tanks by maybe 50-75 MM, not 500.
YOU are the one who is completely CLUELESS.
On class balance:
Fixed super structure TD’s are, well not suffering, but beginning to show their age. Their best use was to grab a piece of cover, dig in and hurt the enemy to their front. if the enemy was able to close with them they were doomed.
Now as WG is working hard to remove concealment with lines of fire to where you need them, this is starting to give drivers of said vehicles a hard time. As we now have to move out from cover (which means no camo) and take the shot. In lots cases they lack the Armour to do this style of play.
If wg would buff tanks hp 25-50% up it would mess up game so bad it would no longer be wot but some korean random.
Tier 4 is a bit out of wack, the TDs have better firepower than most t5 while the mediums, lights and heavies barely outgun their t3 predecessors.
I know that the Chinese vehicles were a forced addition but I feel that they deserve a bit more attention, especially the T-34-2 and the 113.
Agree totally about tier 4. A tier 4 heavy, light or medium in a tier 6 game is a bit of a joke. UR impotent.
A PZIII for instance has basically no armor in a tier 5 or 6 game and even light tanks burn through you like butter, but then a tier 3 will cut right through your armor too. Also, the alpha on tier 6 tanks is a joke. Why bother shooting a TOG in a PZIII? Even if you can pen it with GOLD your alpha is so low it costs a fortune.
Except for TD’s, most tier 4 tanks need a buff.
Somua SAu 40 needs a buff for the TDs.
Arguably I’d give limited MM of +1/-1 to lights/mediums/heavies as a whole at tier 2-3-4. They’re simply so bad at facing enemies two tiers higher.
Just had a game where a bloody death star isu152 had better view range than me in my ru251 with c.optics and 3 skill crew. So yeah view ranges need to be reshuffled. Being a scout that is outviewed by td-s makes no sense…
binoculars is the massive problem in my opinion. +25% is just way too much. It really sucks because it rewards stationary play. Coupled with camo from a bush there’s just no way the camping shitlord TD will be outspotted by anything.
And just WTF were they thinking, giving the WT E100 the 420m view range. Sits still with binoculars and even a high camo light tank will be outspotted.
Remove them and leave it with just optics giving a 5 or 10% buff
Could always leave binos as equipment for lights only.
Great comment. The only tanks that use BINOS are mostly camping TD’s who then combined with awesome TD camo ratings can out spot lights.
Besides, ur also right that most light tank drivers no longer use BINOS because WG has remove ALL bushes so there is very little passive scouting in the game anymore.
They could also be much faster activating as well, even immediate. It could allow for spot and move tactic maybe, as WG seem to like splashing the agent orange around on all their maps.
The high tier meta-game is still firmly in the hands of heat-spamming russian mediums and the autoloaders. One can hardly blame them tough with the corridor maps forcing them into direct confrontations with heavies and armor-based TD’s rather than allowing them to do their job, flanking them.
More open maps, throw away entirely or limit premium shells and increase dispersion on the move for the autoloaders.
Arty should get another look at again too. At the moment it’s just very random, infuriating for the driver when he doesn’t hit anything a whole match, infuriating for the opponent who gets one-shotted.
Drastically reduce damage and increase ROF and accuracy.
EDIT: Oh, and the whole british heavy branch needs a solid look-over. Too fragile at high tiers, underarmed and lacking their legendary cross-country mobility at the lower, without having really effective armor.
“increase dispersion on the move for the autoloaders.”
That’s already in game – have you played any? They have to basically get next to their target and unload to their side or be still for a few seconds and only then they can snipe. Also they can’t get stabilizer (or some other equipment?), IIRC.
“Arty should get another look at again too. At the moment it’s just very random, infuriating for the driver when he doesn’t hit anything a whole match, infuriating for the opponent who gets one-shotted.
Drastically reduce damage and increase ROF and accuracy.”
My biggest issue with this – what you described is not an arty. It’s some weird mechanism that WW2 has never seen, firing fast indirect lower caliber HE shells. The closest thing would be manned mortars, but those aren’t really tanks.
Or do you really expect 240 mm HE shell (around 130 kg per shell) to be loaded in, say, 15 seconds, and then when it hits the roof of a tank to do, say, 250 damage?
” underarmed and lacking their legendary cross-country mobility at the lower”
Cromwell (currently considered the best T6 MT) and Comet and Cruiser III would like to talk to you :)
why would you bring historical realism argument in discussion about arty? thats just not logical, the game itself is arcade from its beginning and concept of arty is not real too. It went to the point that what matters is balance and gameplay, not historical accuracy. Or you mean to tell me they got bird-eye view and they shot individual tanks in motion in WW2?
Because the game tries to be historically realistic “where possible”, to at least resemble the historical situations. And the fact is, that the arties of the time were inaccurate, slow to load, but when they hit, it was usually game over. It’s the recognizing points, like heavy armour of HTs, speed of LTs, etc.
But sure, we can go further with this concept, and fix some other game problems:
Maus DPM too low? Let’s give it a bit better pen (250, for example), RoF 120 and 17HP average damage. There, fixed. Unhistorical? Who cares.
Yeah, thats exactly my point. 99 percent of the people really dont care, including me. Im just stating most of the players value gameplay experience and balance over historical realism. Well ofc the example of yours wouldnt really work because there people would care. But they wouldnt start asking questions like “how is it possible for Maus to shoot 120 RPM while in reality it was only able to do 3 (? I dont really know)” but “how is it possible for Maus to shoot 120 RPM while other heavies in its tier shoot only 4-6″ ?
Same with arty, if it would work better with changed concept, eventhough far from reality, people would not give a fuck, because it would prove their gameplay experience. And thats what most of them play for, not to check if game numbers add up with the real ones.
“But they wouldnt start asking questions”
Oh, believe me, this game is played by many players who would ask like that.
Many? Hundreds? Thousands? Put me in the perspective here please. I think its more case of vocal minority
I would say tens to hundreds of thousands, especially in Russia.
I think he said Heavy branch, which the Cromwell, Comet and Cruiser have nothing to do with, Having played through the heavies I have to agree though, they always feel ok against their own tier but totally unable to deal with anything higher tier due to either weak guns tier 6-8 and then weak armour at tier 9 (excluding tier 10 as it’s being changed soon anyway)
Oh, I thought he switched back to generally British tanks. My mistake.
Though having played both Churchills and BP, I don’t think those are problematic – the guns are precise enough to work with weakpoints and the armour is generally good if you know how to use it. Sure, they are not awesome and they can be late to the party, but they aren’t really underperforming and can steam over quite a few things.
Autoloaders:
Exactly as it should be, but not enough by the looks of it. T57′s, Batchats etc. still have it way too easy in randoms. The are just as able to pull of run’n gun snapshots as most of their non-autoloader equivalents.
Insane burst damage require insane drawbacks. That’s balance.
Arty:
Slippery slope much? The stats you propose however aren’t totally out of whack, just not for the 240 mm shell of the T92.
No, rather than try to salvage the current arty I’d rather ditch all the massive, slow derp-arty, like GW Tigers and T92′s, and put in smaller, more efficent and modern platforms.
Top tier US arty would be an early M109, with a 155 mm gun. Top UK would be the FV344 Abbot with a rapid firing 105 mm, etc.
The current FV304 “Bert” is an excellent example of what arty should be like on their respective tiers.
British tanks:
Was the “heavy branch” not clear enough for you?
Have you played the Bat Chat? You cannot pull off snap shots like you claim, and if you tried you’re going to miss all of your shots in the vast majority of circumstances.
Pingback: Storm k balancování typů tanků
- balance of classes as a whole
LT: Mostly underperforming. The corridors make for better rushes to enemy base, but make circling harder (less space for that). Not sure whether the viewrange might help, but it’s worth a try. Notable exception is LTs that have damage output (autoloaders), but those are basically almost MTs. Huge problem that many players still can’t play these tanks – might improve with 6th sense rebalance, might not.
MT: Mostly overperforming at high tiers. Understandable, considering this was THE way to go in tank research after the war. Fairly balanced, though in some cases some soft stats could be a bit worse.
HT: Mostly underperforming, because of gold ammo and no skill players (not sidescraping Germans, no hulldown US, etc). The accuracy buff might help. In some cases might be fixable by more armor (it worked well for 4502B), though historical limits might prevent this change.
TD: Fairly balanced right now, with some exception. The WTE100 spam is pretty much over, which helped to get it back to reasonable proportions, as well as the alpha nerf and corridor addition (easier to predict and flank). Currently I don’t see much problems about them.
Arty: Balanced ATM, I’d say, probably the most balanced class in the game. The damage output seems balanced to the chance of major damage per hit.
- balance of various tiers and issues in it
Seems a bit better, though around T4-6 there are still slight issues. Haven’t played T1-3 recently, but remember no whine about too strong T18s on forums recently, so the balance there is a bit better there, too.
T10 seems a bit unbalanced in some battles, but that might be more about MM and different vehicle selection at this tier (every player that’s there usually has quite a few T10s)
- balance of individual vehicles
Mostly no problems here. There are some minor problems (Bulldog right now, maybe?), but I think statistics will show those over time.
- system issues of balance, for example “too much viewrange” or “too much penetration”
Viewrange is a… difficult topic. Technically it should be unlimited, but that’d need very big maps and that’d need different approach (poor Maus, T95, etc.) and much stronger machines. So I think that current system of viewrange (and using it as a balance) is good enough.
As for balance, I think that the planned nerf of everything except LTs is reasonable enough – they should probably have this soft stat better than others, to emphasize their role. Of course, it will in some cases inevitably lead to defeat of the team because of their failure, but that can be said about any class (HT and TD failing at defending a key corridor, MTs failing fighting enemy tanks, arties not hitting anything in the open), so I guess it’s a necessity.
Penetration is another difficult concept – I think it’s mostly fine right now. There were some solid proposals about limiting gold per battle, but I think those wouldn’t help much in these cases. It might make balancing a tad easier, though, since developers could balance tanks around fixed numbers (75% AP, 20% APCR, 5% HE, for example) – I am not sure how penetration is taken into account right now in this process.
In any case, AP seems mostly fine, HEAT as an alternative is a bit less fine and HE would likely need some small buff for lower HE calibers (under 100mm). HESH seems fine too, as does APCR. Talking about balance, ofc.
- system issues of game mechanics, for example camo, or penetration mechanism
Mostly fine. Would probably need some tutorial so the players can understand it (they notoriously fail to understand camo of a bush – and basics of penetration too), but that’s not really tied to the system itself.
I had some issues with 6th sense as a serious balance changer, but with the revamp it doesn’t matter anymore.
One more thing – I still like how nations are balanced. Of course, there are exceptions (every nation tried different approach at some point), but it’s nice that you can still follow general trends for most nations and rely on it, be it german sniping/sidescrape, russian facehugs, US hulldowns or Japanese obnoxious support. Some people say that every tank is the same now, but I disagree there.
Overall, I think the game is mostly balanced. There are some deviations, but none of them are serious enough to make the game unplayable for a certain vehicle/class (they are only easier or more difficult to play, but still playable), which is always good.
I think that there are a lot more vehicles that are underperforming as far as balance goes. For example in the French tree alone you have underperforming or awful tanks like the AMX 40, Somua SAu 40, ARL V39, AMX M4 45, AMX AC mle. 48, and AMX 13 75 – possibly still the Lorraine 40t too, haven’t checked.
Alpha damage balance is a problem. Or HP of vehicules are too low. Often, you are dead in less than 3 shots received if one of them is a big TD or arty or a better vehicule (tier upper). I think arty is the highest problem in this domain. A lot can OS you with a lucky shot. It coul be better if they can shot one immobile target easier but with less consequence for the victime, a sort of warning that say you “move or you will die” instead kill you directly. For arty, the noise of shell comming could be nice too to give you an oppurtunity to run from the shell (the way it works in War Thunder is fine).
Penetration is too high. There is no point to aim WS against armored vehicule. Decrease penetration of all guns will give armore role back, increase skill influence and gold ammo usage (and so profit for Wargaming). It’s compatible with historical accuracy if you remove all “fake” guns/shells.
Precision is too high. Linked to what I mention above. It’s too easy to cath a WS few kilometers away ^^
Radiorange is too high. The biggest issue of the game, for me, is when everyone camping and the fisrt one who move is suddenly killed because it was the first spotted and instanally there was 15 guns that aiming it. As you will reduce spotting range, it will reduce this phenomen but it could be a lot better with lower radio range. With lower radio range, the campers can’t shot all ennemies accross the map. The goal is to create more compartementing. Only small groups of players play together and decide of the outcome of the confrontaton of their area. This way it creates more dynamic during battle. The only tanks that should have a high radio rang could be light tanks and artys. LT to increase the spotting efficiency and arty to allow the to support allies without going where there can be spotted too easily. It give also the opportunity to give to radioman a more important role to play in battle. Players should have to health them if they are killed and it opens some perks posisbilities (increase radiorange, relay, interference the opponent radio (decrease opponenents’ radiorang), etc.)
>> For arty, the noise of shell comming could be nice too to give you an oppurtunity to run from the shell (the way it works in War Thunder is fine).
Only, you know, even 600m/s slow shell is twice the speed of sound – so, if you hear it coming there is a bug in the matrix because it has already hit ;) .
So, if you hear the shell coming and are still alive, it’s not a danger anymore.
I agree. The Alpha of most tier 10 TD’s and tier 10 arty is ridiculous.
Some changes in arty gameplay would be nice. For example different shell types, with different velocity/dmg/splash. Faster shell does less dmg, bigger shell has bad velocity, or shells with big splash radius, but medium dmg – something like:
AP-HE – Fast shell, with medium dmg and little splash, high penetration
High power HE – shell with big load of explosive material, dmg is caused by shockwave and because so, splash radius is small, but dmg is high, low penetration, low speed
Shrapnell HE – Big splash radius, low dmg, very low penetration, normal speed
Same goes for other shell types, if not adding new shells, then gold ammo should trade penetration for dmg. 25% more pen, 25% less dmg, 15% cheaper than now.
Low tier rebalance, as it was said before, tier 4 is utter crap.
Rebalance of old tanks, compared to new tanks. Every old medium has low pen, while every new mediums are equally fast and mobile, but have more penetration.
I have a suggestion which would make Light Tanks become the primary spotters, without making it all about a single stat (viewrange).
Give a 3 second (or 1 second, just an example) delay to all spotting except from light tanks. After all, they would have priority on the radio channels since they are dedicated spotters. Thsi would mean that light tanks give a slight advantage to firing first, but aren’t blessed with “magic binoculars”. This would require less changes to the current view ranges and make light tanks slightly more useful, different and interesting to play.
It is a simple change that doesn’t add complexity or make them game less noob-friendly, which WG values…
That would only make players cry: “Why didn’t I see him for a second when he was clearly in the open.”
He means increase the time it takes to render a spotted tank to your teammates if you are not in a light tank.
Oh, didn’t understand it like that. It’s an interesting idea, yes. And dead radioman could increase this interval to more, which might further increase his value.
Might be worth a try testing. The only issue is that there would have to be some signal added to those who spot: “I sent the message now.”, otherwise people will get confused others don’t see what they see. And more thinking through (what if the enemy disappears during those 3 seconds, etc), but it’s still doable, IMO.
Yes, I had the same thought on making the radioman skill affect the spotting time. I’ve thought a bit about this suggestions for some time (months) and while there might be some issues I haven’t thought of, one thought that I forgot to mention: you could increase visual checks per second for LT’s and lower them for others, which would also lower bandwidth needs.
I personally think that this could end up being a nerf to LT’s. If the light tank gets spotted at the same time and they are lit with or without the delay in the case of something other than another LT spotting them, then that is a second or three as stated, that they are not going to be able to be supported…. “POOF! there goes out scout….”
If two scouts light up each other, things would be as they are now.
If scout and non-scout spot each other, the scout team can immediately shell the non-scout as it can now, while the non-scout team has to wait x seconds during which only that non-scout spotter can shell the scout.
Where is the nerf part?
yes, thank you for clearing that up!
Only thing that comes to my mind is to make gold shells penetration dependent of the standard rounds pen. For example gold shell pen would be always higher of 30 percent (just a thought, that number can ofc change). One of the few issues I have wit the game is that typically T-54 (or Black prince/Comet comes to my mind) has nonsense high pen on gold round while other competitors of the same class at same tier doesnt. T-54 vs E 50 for example: T-54 is pens Jagdtiger superstructure all day long, E50 simply cannot.
the reason for high BP/Comet APCR pen is twofold
A. historically those guns could fire APS (Armour piercing Sabot) rounds that have quite high penetration
B.generally guns with low AP penetration get a greater increase in penetration from APCR in order to compensate, the BP and Comet have low AP penetration for their tier. For instance in the example you give the T-54 does have better gold pen than an E 50 (330 for T-54 HEAT vs 270 for E 50 APCR) but the E50 has better AP pen (201 for T-54 220 for E 50), furthermore the T-54 has HEAT which is more likely to bounce against sloped armour than APCR, so while the T-54 can penetrate the flat casemate on a Jagdtiger it will bounce off of the sloped glacis plate, the E 50 on the other hand will probably penetrate the glacis plate with APCR.
1. Cannot argue, didnt know that
2. Yeah, I get that, but I dont agree with it. Tanks are still balanced around their standard AP penetration and if the gold pen is so high in order to compensate, that makes those tanks imbalanced (if driver uses the gold shells). Your example with HEAT vs APCR is irrelevant, because the HEAT has SO MUCH pen, it doesnt really matter what kind of slope surfaces you shoot on, it will generally go in (i played 1k battles on T-54 so I know what im talking about). Basically, T-54 is OP as fuck at its own tier. Imagine they would drop down the HEAT pen to 260. Suddenly, its pretty well balanced, you can pen most of the things you need, but not with brainless attitude “autoaim at any target and press LMB”
When they nerfed the heat pen on the T69 and left the 54s alone there was a problem. And then that gun got added to tier 8 as well.. 54 heat spam needs a nerf already
-Light tanks should receive increased XP scaling for spotting and assist damage compared to the other classes
-Light tanks should receive Spotting ‘priority’ for assist damage, ie if there is a light tank and medium tank the same distance from a target that has revealed itself and is taking fire, the assist XP should go to the light tank
-nerf the turret traverse on some of the heavy tanks slightly, its no good trying to play an active light tank where your speed is supposed to protect you when every enemy tank (especially some of the higher alpha hight tier guns) can effortlessly keep you in their gun-sights even when you’re going full speed and at long range
-buff the range on some of the light tank Autocannons to allow a slightly greater stand-off distance for these tanks, especially considering that a lot of the 30mm class cannons were originally designed for aircraft to use at a much further range than is represented in game
1. Class balance has to be approached per tier – there are quite severe differences on different tiers and priority should be to get tanks balanced on tier level, both nationwise and classwise. There is not a one simple solution for everything, no magic ritual can fix all at once ;) .
2. Scouts: lift render square restriction (or at least make it circle) – this is one of the biggest issues this game has, it’s counterintuitive for noobies.
2a.If you lift it, you will also buff scouts by allowing them to get support over greater distances, improving their current meta.
2b.And if you are afraid of shooting “pixels”, just introduce 16x zoom ratio (or configurable ratios in setup).
2c.This will also buff certain “sniper” tanks which gotten nerfed with changing accuracy spread (and don’t be afraid about that buffing them too much, there’s still penetration loss over distance).
2d. Another thing is that this will open the way to introducing bigger maps in future, when the need comes.
3. Regarding scouts and viewrange – i’d rather have some of them get it buffed than other classes blinded even more with nerfing it. Still, if you introduce the (2) change, only certain tanks will need it buffed as viewrange and camo are a combo in the same equation, with mobility supporting scout meta.
4. I’d suggest introducing a team-oriented mode for ODD tiers, as they are useless besides randoms (i.e. there is no other need for them than being grindthrough). Easiest would be dropping strongholds one tier down each (5,7,9) and altering modes with different slot counts.
Even tiers have companies, ESL modes and CW.
If not, try introducing different mode, but too many of them is asking for a failure.
5. I won’t even start on artillery because there is no good solution to it.
6. National battles was a good testbed for balance, it’s a pity they got removed without taking any lessons on rebalance. Like, saying that there are no balance problems because we removed evidence…
6a. Also, observe companies and ESL for tanks which are most used – there are reasons for that.
7. On scouts again: rebalance all apart top (8tier) to get normal MM, the way arty got it. It’s high time to do that, even if some get hit hard with nerfbat. It just stands to reason.
PS: i’m open for discussion, public or private :) .
“lift render square restriction (or at least make it circle) ”
This. Many times. I dont mind the current spotting system, but this drawing range issue I dont like. Drawing range is too close to view range in some directions, and is very counter intuitive and unrealistic. Either make it a very large circle or remove it completely.
I would like a harcap on gold rounds to prevent spamming. Armour needs to be made more important again, Heavy tanks sacrifice speed and camo rating for better protection which just isn’t there at the moment so there’s no real benefit. Accuracy needs to change to bring back the advantage for tanks that were meant to be accurate, the British 20pdr for example, you pay so much more money per shell because it’s supposed to be an accurate, high pen gun but when it’s just as easy to snipe with a russian 100mm it negates that advantage. Invisible TD’s are an issue, when you have to get a scout tank to within proxy spotting distance of an E-25 that’s sat in a bush I’d call that broken! Finally on individual tanks I’d want the armour fixing on the M103, since the ‘HD remake’ that thing basically lost all of its armour, tier 7′s easily punch straight through the upper glacis, turret roof, turret cheeks etc, this tank was meant to have weak sides and rear to balance being so strong from the front, now this is gone. /rant :P
‘ if ALL the premium tanks were to get limited MM, it would come with a nerf, because otherwise some would be too OP (“pwning without end is cool for only one side”)’
Thats all well and good but some of the older premiums (PIV S for example) have no place being in a +2 battle and all I ever face in mine are tier 8s; as a result I barely play it anymore.
I wonder which are the would-be-OP premiums? IIRC E25 & IS-6 already have limited mm. Maybe they mean some of the lower tiers…
1. every premium should have limited MM – they don’t have top modules anyway
eg. Panther M10 it sucks bad with 150 pen at tier 9 ! (even against is-6 and is-3, it has a hard time…
2. nerf view range for all vehicles by 5-10% (including LT)
3. buff arty accuracy by 0.02-0.05m and decrease reload time by 1-2 sec (to lower TD/heavy usage indirectly)
4. buff all medium tanks by lowering terrain resistance by 5% (their mobility is just a bit better than heavys at the moment…)
5. nerf all gold shells penetration to 15% of the non-gold version, this will promote lower gold usage, and more skillful play in random battles. (your armor is worthless when the penetration of my GOLD round is 300+ pen), i even see 420 pen, and i ask myself why drive the slow turtle mouse when the armor is useless !!!
Woooot? M10/Panther has already limited MM, where the hell have you seen 9tier? Failplatoons?
Guess he was testing his theory and platooning with T8 tanks. That is interesting fact finding just so you can come on here and sound like an idiot!
Yeah, he obviously doesn’t know what he is walking about. Arty accuracy buff? Med buff? Never played high-tier it seems….
-LT of the same tier are not balanced. M41 is completely OP, compared to its french and chinese counterparts. Even the before allmighty T71 has now no reason to be played compared to this beast, which is better in everything.
AMX12 t is cmomplete crap,…
-I don’t have high tier arties, but thme reload is TOO long on my 13F3. (Example)
I have poor opportunities to shoot without obstacles and when I can travel time is way too long. 2/3 of my shots just misses and I have to wait 27 seconds before another miss.
Maybe giving arties with low ROF on low tiers worse acc but better aim time, with a ROF buff would make it more viable…
-some tanks of other classes and tiers are too differents.
EX: matilda (perfect armor, great gun and still 370 hp) vs M3Lee (crappier, and super low 310 hp.)
And a hp buff, because every heavy you meet can OS you.
Fu.
I mean buff arty hp (wrong sentence order and failed to edit)
Something i hate almost as arty.
Example: at the start on Kharkov i get on the end of the long street and wait to spot players who will cross it and put a shot in them, but with this kind of spoting system when checks are made every 1, 2 or so seconds is impossible to make clutch shots because when you spot enemy he allready crossed 50m of open gap where you should have direct line of sight on him and is lit when only his rear 0.5m of tank is still visible. I explained this badly but maye some1 knows what im talking about.
Yes, I understand what you are saying…. If you are watching a road for example knowing that a fast moving tank is coming your way and going to cross your vision, and they go dark just prior to getting to the road. If the vision check happens in .5 seconds then you see entering the road and can shoot at them, if it happens later .75 seconds then you see them on the other side of the road and magically they got past you.
Limitted viewrange on Medium is quite critical. Especially M48A1 Patton III tier X US medium. Spotting enemy is a great weapon to Medium tank because most of Medium tanks do not have good camo or armor thickness, speed.
If Developers deal viewrange, They must consider individual whole tank’s strategic.
Three classes I think WG need to balance:
Light tanks:
It is a very rewarding and sastifying class to play, when it actually works. Unfortunately if you make just one single mistake, no matter how good you are (e.g. Tracked) you get punished very harshly, because you don’t have armour and HP to compensate for it. High Tier scouts, especailly suffer this a lot becasue they just do not have too much advantage against any class of the vehicles. The view range, for example, everyone have 390~400 in T8~10, and that made scouts pointless. There are no need for a scout when a Medium or TD can have the same viewrange. I hope to see some changes to LT’s mechanics.
SPG:
This is very contraversal, and I know that many people hate artillery, and I can understand it. The problem of this class is it involves Too Much RNG. You can one shot someone without even aimming, but you can hit nowhere near where you aimed sometimes. This lead to my point: If SPG will stay the way it is currently, Please reward the player for leading and aim the shot carefully for Hitting the target reliablely. I think that the DPM is fine as it is IF you actually can actually hit the target if you aim like that. Sure don’t make it hit 100% of the time, but they should be hitting at least near where you aimed for 90% of the time. I think it will help to cancel out some of the frustration of SPG players. People being idle and do not move should be punished for a artillery shell hitting them. This make this class fair and fun to play, IF you have the skill of aimming carefully and prioritize targets that you need to shoot.
Tank Destroyers:
After the SPG nerf, many players whine about TD being too strong. Indeed currently they do not have a True counter to them, especially in the games with No SPG. First of all, I think some of the TDs’ view range can be based on how tall the tank is (This does not neccessarily affect other classes, though). For example, the Foch(es), being a low profile TD, should have Fantastic Camo rating, but poor View Range to compensate for it. I know that this would affect some special TDs (Rhm-Borsig, for example), but I would really appreciate about a view rage Overhaul. Camo Ratings on TDs should be kept, but to balance things out and increase the importance of LTs, we can create a mechanic about TDs can be more easily spotted by the LTs (e.g. a reduction on the effectiveness on their camo rating). Other possible solution is to INCREASE TD’s stationary camo rating, but make them EASIER to spot when they are moving (i.e. on the move Camo nerf, but compensate for stationary bouns). Their nice gun and DPM should be kept, though, as this would ensure they can still play their role effectively and fun to play after the changes, which decrease the whine of players, just like what happened after 8.6.
I really hope that WG can improve their game by listening to our opinions. They’ve made a Fantastic game, but I think a mechanic rebalance is inevitable to solve some problems that are caused by some core mechanism in the game.
HEAT: penetration AP + 20% penetration AP
example: E100 235mm + 20% of 235mm = 282mm (not 330mm)
T-54 219mm + 20% of 219mm = 263mm (not 330mm)
APCR: penetration AP + 15% penetration AP
HESH: penetration AP – 25% penetration AP
example: FV215b (183) 310mm – 25% of 310mm = 232mm (like now)
Cost of gold shells reduced by 15% – 20%
LT: – View Range buffed by 5% (RU 251 400m to 420m)
– some LT don’t need all this penetration (Luchs like)
MT: – View Range reduced by 6% (E50M 400m to 376m)
– Penetration AP Tier X 250mm or above
example: 250mm for sniper MT and 230mm for brawler MT
HT: – View Range reduced by 8% (E100 400m to 368m)
TD: – View Range reduced by 12% (JgPzE100 400m to 352m)
SPG: – View Range reduced by 18% (GW E100 400m to 328m)
– Damage reduced by 30% (GW E100 2000 HP to 1400 HP)
– Same DPM (GW E100 reloading 42,55 s to 29.79 s)
NO MORE TUNNEL MAPS !!!!!
No reason and explanation? Think as the Devs bro. I bet they will only consider this as a whine.
You have right, sorry man.
So, is better change penetration of premium shells because is impossible that some tanks can penetrate a very armored vehicle easily with premium ammo, and is impossible that some tanks have same penetration with premium ammo
for example E100 (a Tier X heavy tank) and T-54 (a Tier IX medium tank)
View Range changed because TD can spot easily without LT (my WT E100 have 498m VR with optics and skills) and medium tanks, for now, are better of spotters. With this changes (and penetration changes) the rule of LT is more marked.
Do I must explain SPG alpha nerf too? I think that with this configuration there are more funny to play (for SPG players and not)
I m sorry for my very bad english
It was mentioned very recently, that arty DPM is good right now. Remember that you have bigger chance to one hit enemy compared to most normal tanks.
I know, but with this nerf to alpha, SPG make less damage (for now 1000 HP – armour, and after 700 HP – armour) for example, if a GW E100 hit a E100 now he do 800 HP damage, with this nerf he will do 500 HP…I think that this balancing top tier SPG
That actually makes sense.
Balance problems:
1. Premium ammo
- Everybody is spamming premium ammo. This completely removes the skill needed to drive your tank (armor angling and knowing your tanks weak spots).
- Hard cap for premium ammo is needed. Dmg reduction does not help, because it´s only going to increase premium ammo spamming. Cost is not problem, because you can just drive couple battles with premium tank and cover those ammo losses.
2. Arty
- Especially tier 8-10 when arty can one shot you. It just increases camping, when you need to hide behind something. If you move arty one shots you. Arty games are not fun, when everybody is just camping and sitting behind bush or hard cover. You cant defend against arty else than camping behind hard cover. Against all other tanks you can. Suddenly hand of god comes when you dare to move out of cover and ruins your good game.
- Maybe reduce dmg and give more splash radius and module damage and ability to stun crew members. And then reward for this more than direct hits. And also give arty smoke rounds. This maybe would make arty more tactical.
- The laser guided satellite view of arty is also problem. Maybe give view something like in WoWS
3. LT are still useless
- Maps are too small and LT have same view range than top HT or MT and cant flank because maps too small.
- No use for LT in city maps. Kharkov is exception on this, because there are multiple roads. Other city maps have only couple “lanes”.
4. Maps too small
- No ways to flank choke points, when you can almost shoot across map.
- Bigger maps would also help in arty problem, if arty are not changed in other ways. In bigger maps, arty cant cover whole map.
Someone had this idea that non-lights should have a small delay before their spots are shown to the rest of the team. Somehow I find this more interesting than nerfing the viewrange, unless we are talking purely T7+ scouts in T10+ battles.
I think that this would be a nerf, read my comment above on the original post…
I’m not sure I understand what you are tryin to say there. If the scout spots his attacker, he can have all the support he can get, since scout spots would be shared instantly. Where is the nerf part?
Let’s see…
Lights – too weak mostly, I know you can pad WN8 in lights and stuff but that’s WN8, not WG’s intention. Having impotent cannons and castrated HP in maps where win or lose depends mostly on corridor fights (whoever wins corridor wins the game, most of the time) really hurts. They gather a lot of hipster attention tho.
Meds – fun, and strong. Like they should be. The tier 7-8 meds need buffs however, they are highly underwhelming in almost all aspects.
HTs – way too strong tier 6-8, okay tier 9, sort of lacking tier 10.
TDs – in world of corridors, turretless TDs are more useless than lights. They can’t pekaboo, and they have no room to snipe, so they just camp at the exit of the corridor to do a shot or two and die. Turreted TDs, on the other hand, are too strong (WTF E-100 and Borsig mostly).
Arty- it’s arty, no matter what you do, people will whine.
I like your approach to arty~ =w=
I think artillery does way too much damage when it penetrates armor. This is especially a problem for vehicles without enough armor to stop HE shells from penning no matter where they hit (Japanese tree in particular has serious issues with this, as they have no armor and are also not very quick; thus a juicy target for arty). I really liked that proposal to rework HE to cause “crew stunning”; maybe introduce that alongside a general reduction in HE damage from penetrating shots. Non-penning splash is fine as it is, but I’ve been on the receiving end of what feels like far too many lucky shots from arty that took me out in one hit just because I stopped for a second to fire.
On a side note, I am slightly concerned how such a change to HE would affect howitzer-armed tanks like the KV-2. Hopefully it doesn’t ruin them.
I feel that autoloaders in general are getting to be too prevalent; when it was just the french, it was fine because they were trivially easy to pen, and there’s an appropriate risk to staying out in the open long enough to unload a clip. Now that it’s been awhile since the american autos were introduced, a lot more players have them, and having the misfortune to come up against two or even three at a time feels unfair as you’re perma-tracked and slaughtered. Not sure what to do about this; I know WG is probably pretty opposed to putting another hard cap in the MM, but it’s something to look into.
Not sure if this is going to be part of the spotting system rework, but more frequent spotting checks would be nice to have. Especially in city maps, where luck and lag can lead to enemy tanks being able to come out of a corner and be firing at you before you even see them.
It feels like there is an overabundance of gold ammo going around, to the point it is seriously affecting tanks that rely on armor. Ex. KV-4 in particular is nowhere near the brick house it was when introduced.
LTs as a class have been getting a lot of love recently and that’s good; hoping they continue to do so, as there are still plenty of older ones that are badly in need of attention (Aufklarungspanther, WZ-131/132). Type 62 could use some limited MM, esp. considering current trends in LT power creep and how low-pen its gun is. Still think tier 4 LTs should get normal matchmaking (and be rebalanced for that if needbe)
Heavies and mediums seem to be doing OK overall. Those that rely on armor are, as mentioned, suffering from proliferation of gold ammo, but once that is addressed they should be fine.
A few specific vehicles I think need a rework;
- Black Prince: Gun has way too little penetration for being mounted on a tank that can only go 20 kph (and thus must usually fire at front of targets) Give it the 20 pounder or something, it’s easily the worst tier 7 heavy right now.
- Churchill GC: Still a heaping pile of trash. I would move it down a tier or something.
- Chi-Ri: It’s a novelty tank, which would normally be fine, but it takes way too much XP to unlock the STA-1. Type 61/STB-1 have similar unnecessarily high XP cost, but at least those are decent tanks to grind.
- T-43: is still just a glorified T-34/85 a tier higher. Not a terrible tank but you could at least have let it keep the 100mm it used to have; now it’s basically inferior to the KV-13
- Still feel that the Rhm. Borsig is too effective compared to the JPII/Ferdinand. I know it got some nerfs recently, but it’s still a bit silly that this thing gets a 360 degree turret AND still fires the 128mm faster than either of the other german TDs at tier 8, with much better camo. I would reduce the 128mm ROF such that it fires slower than the other two.
- T25/2: Not horrible, but really guys, why didn’t you give it the 105mm? It would be a really interesting option at tier 7 with that gun, as it stands, it’s still just a glorified hellcat, and not at all interesting.
- ARL V39: Just overall inferior to most other tier 6 TDs.
“I think artillery does way too much damage when it penetrates armor. This is especially a problem for vehicles without enough armor to stop HE shells from penning no matter where they hit (Japanese tree in particular has serious issues with this, as they have no armor and are also not very quick; thus a juicy target for arty). I really liked that proposal to rework HE to cause “crew stunning”; maybe introduce that alongside a general reduction in HE damage from penetrating shots. Non-penning splash is fine as it is, but I’ve been on the receiving end of what feels like far too many lucky shots from arty that took me out in one hit just because I stopped for a second to fire.
On a side note, I am slightly concerned how such a change to HE would affect howitzer-armed tanks like the KV-2. Hopefully it doesn’t ruin them.”
= “I don’t play arty, so nerf their HE, but I play KV-2, so don’t nerf my HE, please”
A+ job of putting words in my mouth.
Cool so a 15 vs 15 game is going to be decided now by 1 guy in his light tank out spotting everyone, this isnt going to be game breaking at all. You can already see this on maps like prokarovka and steppes, 1 guy in his light that knows how to play gets 5k spotting and wins the game, meanwhile captain cabbage on your team is either crying about seeing tier 10, suiscouts or trying to snipe with his 170 pen.
Balancing lights like this is dumb it just wont work, give them all 3k dpm and make them meds that trade armour+hp for speed+firepower.
Because there are so many open maps that are around in World of Corridors…
Tier 10
Germany:
- WTF E-100 could receive another accuracy or aim time nerf, though now it’s at least slightly balanced
UK:
- I can’t believe I’m saying this, but now I think FV 183 is pretty balanced. A small buff to the ammo capacity (2-3 extra shells) wouldn’t hurt
USA:
- T57 Heavy is still incredibly OP with that clip reload. Its DPM is way too big for an auto-loader
- T110E4 could receive some love, right now it’s a poor man’s E-100
- M48 Patton is underwhelming, probably the least played Tier 10 MT
France:
- Serious buffs are required for the Foch 155, it has been nerfed way too hard, right now it is way, WAY too hard to perform good, let alone carry, in it.
Since armor is mostly useless anyhow in this age, buff the aim time, buff the clip reload speed (only a few seconds less than WT E-100 for just 3 shells is just stupid), give it back some of its speed AND/OR give it a normal, non-autoloading gun (make it more similar in gameplay to Tier 9 Foch, right now the autoloader is more of a burden)
Soviets:
- Soft stats buff on the Obj. 268 gun are badly required, starting from dispersion upon moving to the shell’s speed. Right now this gun is not even an improvement over the BL-10, except for the so-called accuracy.
Since its mobility has been nerfed, the stiff gun and the painful gun handling are a big impediment to this tank (right now it is vastly underperforming compared to Obj. 263)
Tier 9:
USA:
– T95 either needs a major overhaul or just replace it with something else. 13 kph speed limit in today’s meta makes the tank overall worthless, not to mention that its armor is bypassed with huge ease nowadays. I find this tank to be one of the most useless tanks (carry wise) I have ever played, even more so than the M3 Lee
- T30 could use a slightly, tiny accuracy buff or soft stats buff on the gun – it is one of the most inaccurate guns I have ever used, even when fully aimed. It can fail to hit the side of a Maus 100 meters away, for crying out loud.
France:
– Lorr 40t, although I have not played it, AFAIK could use some love
UK:
- Tortoise needs to have 2nd Loader removed from that stupid MG port, since even The Chieftain (or Challenger) have shown that the 2nd Loader was nowhere near that area.
Desperately needed change, since any shot to that cupola effectively kills the only advantage Tortoise has over its competitors – sheer DPM
Tier 8:
Germany:
– Rhm Borsig is STILL insanely OP, especially compared to its piers. Right now it outperforms each and every other Tier 8 TD so hard it’s not even funny. It can spot, it can use city streets to slam a 750 damage 15cm shell and brawl alongside heavies, you can barely circle it in a LT unless tracked… IMO it’s the KV-1S of Tier 8
- Tiger 2/King Tiger really needs some thought & attention. Right now JP2 is a better Heavy Tank than KT (better mobility, better gun, MUCH better armor when hulldown)
Buff the turret roof armor so it’s no longer overmatched, do something about the gun mantlet (way too small, turret cheeks are 180mm effective, a joke at Tier 8 – even Tiger H has better protection against 200mm pen guns), buff the DPM to Tiger H levels since Tiger 2 also barely has any armor to speak of.
In other words, make at least good when hulldown, if not anything else. Oh, and the turret side armor that can be penned from the side is also way too thin
- Panther 2 is completely underwhelming compared to the Indien-Panzer
USA:
- T28 – either remove it or make it a T95 (remove the completely unhistorical LFP or whatever that abomination you created is) with the 120mm gun. Also way too slow and much too vulnerable (cupola buff?) for what it’s supposed to be
- T28 Prototype – same as T28, much too slow to be a good tank, thought it is far better than T28 thanks to the turret with the troll mantlet
IMO a buff to 25-30 kph for both tanks would not make them OP in the slightest. Also, vastly overshadowed by the Rhm Borsig, which simply makes these 2 obsolete
Soviets:
– KV-4 is underperforming for a reason. Do something with that horrible aim time and maybe slightly buff the DPM. Also, please fix the stupid gun mantlet.
Other general notes: Recent map design is effectively completely gimping tanks with no armor and that rely on not being spotted (camo + view range values). Please make Vision Control be viable again
Now i see the problem at WGN.. its arithmetics!
Storm: the 25 percent RNG in the game (for example damage, penetration) does NOT use even spread (SS: there is a higher chance to get the average damage than one of the extremes), therefore it won’t be reduced, Storm think it’s just fine
25% RNG – right? Sorry – this is 50% RNG what we have(+/-25%) -> you can drop -25% while your opponent with the same tank, rolls high to +25%
E.g. T95 can inflict avg 276dmg / while minimum 207 – 69 less – equals -25%
or 345 equals +25% from 276
This is fucking hilarious! Why should a penetrating shell vary in 50% of Damage? Prolly only to influence and rig the game, right? Providing Noob-Bonus and Unicum-Malus?
Cos same applies to penetration and accuracy.. Why is this powerful variation there? To influence Game-Play?
20% (+/-10%) of variation would be totally enough and more acceptable/ comprehensible
My two cents
WG cannot reduce 25% RNG on penetration as it is exactly this mechanics that makes armor (on heavies and top tiers) work.
On the other side I agree, RNG part of damage should be reduced to 10%
I’ll say this first to get it out of the way.
-Buff arty accuracy on specific arty that FEELS that it needs it by about 10%-20% of what it was nerfed back in 8.6.
-Buff the T92′s accuracy/aim time/dispersion because the M53/55 tier 9 SPG is being picked over the tier 10 SPG for clan wars. This means there’s something wrong with it.
-The spotting system change can not come fast enough.
-Armor is too weak overall.
-The IS-3 feels like tinfoil.
-The Maus is laughable.
-Cupola hits doing full damage to a tank is ridiculous. Please reconsider changing this.
-Limit the amount of premium rounds available on a tank to something less than 30% of the total load of ammunition.
-There is a problem with RNG. Why do you think people ask every single day on here if it will be nerfed?
-It is understood that RNG keeps people from using aim bot as well as when it was a severe issue, but the “kill shot-not kill shot” rolls and the 2-3 bounce/miss rounds on a one shot tank that are built into your system really upset a lot of people.
-Make RNG even for EVERYONE. RNG should not favor the bad player. It does-SerB said so.
Where did he say so? *interest*
Reduce aim time on artillery.
Atm, arty is terribly underpowered compared to other classes (even developers state that having +50% WR with only arty is close to impossible). Having played arty myself, I believe this have to do with the ludicrous aim time of up to 8 seconds. All other stats are fine to me, reload and damage and all, but having to sit still and aim for 8 freaking seconds just renders arty useless! You barely even get to fire the damn gun! Artillery is uanble to furfill it’s purpose of getting rid of campers, because the enemies have to be absolute shitheads to sit still for so long after being spotted.
When you have a class that has to depend not only on RNGsus, but also the stupidity of the enemies to do any damage, there shouldn’t be any suprise when said class is useless.
I think reducing the aim time to 4-6 seconds would be the best way to make arty viable again.
In addition to this, I believe reducing the penetration values on high tier arties, would also be a good idea. This would mean reduced damage (mostly) on heavier tanks, to compencate for more frequent hits, whilst the lower aim time would make it possible for artillery to hit other, nimbler classes such as lights and mediums.
I’m not sure about only the lights getting the better view range, they are still tanks with turrets – in most cases, TD’s with open tops should have the best view ranges in the game, just because the commander doesn’t have to look through a little view port, or 5 of them.
My humble opinion:
1. Power-creep:
Many HT cannot fullfill the role they are supposed to do, especially from the old lines. It is not only that you cannot rely on their armor, but the armor also comes with a cost, like low DPM or mobility, which is not justified if everyone can pen you. Therefore a reduction in damage and a limit of gold-shells should be considered.
2. Accuracy:
High accuracy is normally balanced against damage. The accuracy- buff of 8.9(?) has taken aways the benefit of high accuracy and favoured guns with high alpha and/or high aim-time, especially sowjet- tanks (beginning on tier 6). Snapshotting with a KV-2 shouldn’t be possible. Neither should it be possible to hit target 400m away with derp-guns. And it is not necessary anymore ot aim properly to hit weakspots, which reduces the effectivity of armor even more. Therefore, increase the distribution factor again.
3. Light tanks:
Light tanks have two problems: Balance within their class and balance to their role of scouting. Light tanks in general are not balanced within their class. The OP lights are more dangerous than many medium or even heavy tanks, others are completely useless and cannot even scout properly. So, an individual vehicle rebalance is necessary.
In addition, many high tier tanks have too much view and radio range, especially medium tanks. To improve LT scouting skills, the view and radio range of the other classes should be reduced. To not make LT even more OP, when they are top tier, if would be wise to increase the lower end of their MM.
4. Low tier:
As someone already wrote, fighting in a tier 3 against a tier 5 is like fighting in tier 6 against tier 10. Tier 4 against tier 6 is also quite hard. The MM spread for lower tiers should be reduced. This would keep a lot of newbies from beeing frustrated too fast.
99. A general remark:
I really would like to see all tanks with their historical top configuration as elite- version and a re-organisation of the tech-tree. That would remove many unhistorical solutions and would stop quite some whining, especially regarding German Tanks.
Tiger for example. Give it the 88L56mm as top gun and move it to tier 6. Other candidates would be Panther. JT, SU-line, ISU,Pershing, Ferdinand, Tiger 2, Stug3, JP4. That way armor would count more, more fights against historical enemies, reduced feeling of uselessness, more historcal accuracy, better look!
ARTILLERY IS BROKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remove or change the mechanic ENTIRELY…
My suggestion.. as usual… is for “one round” to be a barrage of 10-30 small shells doing small damage each over a spread area (the whole reticule would work)… think Pz1C machine gun from above… then the usual long reload they have now…
They will still be able to cripple heavies via HP damage and module/crew damage, but “more fairly” rather than 1-shotting anything in sight… they will then also be able to damage a number of tanks at the same time, but only a little each…
This will, however, need some thinking about when a scout comes knocking on the doors… that kind of rain will kill any scout within a 50 degree arc.. unless the spread in “TD mode” is full reticule and the likelihood is the scout will only get hit by a few small damage shells, then its perfectly workable.
Currently.. arty is fucking shit for the game.
And how that correlates with the in-game model of a big arty with huge gun? What would you suggest instead, 30 guys with mortars that you kill by driving them over? ^^
I would suggest removing artillery completely.
Arty:
Make them more accurate but allow arty fire in “sattelite” mode only when fully aimed, this means that if arty player wants to hit moving target, he will must predict enemy behaviour not simply got lucky with not fully aimed shots on moving targets, thus rewarding players for their skill, not just dummy’s for their luck.
Some arty pieces need serious rebalance, SturmPanzer II capable killing 4 tanks of same tier in one minute is bit too much and on overall i don’t really like one shot wonder weapons in game where 122mm on IS or 152mm on ISU just blow tracks out of low tier scouts. If arty players wants realism in game then they need understand how realism work in game for ALL other classes in order to be game FUN in first place and not tool to promote fear in players from one shot sattelite coordinated blow from other end of map which make less experienced players that makes most of team fear from leaving their safe spot.
Premium ammo:
We cannot want from developers to reduce their profits by restricting prem. ammo capacity in game that most of us plays for free, as premium ammo and their cost is part what makes money for WG for covering free players expenses by paying customers buying prem. accounts (example).
What we can possibly want is as in case of prem. consumables a choice, if you use prem. food you generally loosing other equipment like fire ext. in return so one advantage is counterbalanced by disadvantage, with prem. ammo there isn’t that kind of compromise in many cases, thus no balance at all.
I think that 10% reduction in damage for APCR or HEAT (prem. ammo only) for exchange in slightlz lower cost is as much as we can really get for fair play without compromising WG profits interests.
This solution means that skilled players can have better chance with their skill even without prem. ammo, while prem. ammo spamming is still viable for people who are in need of higher pen. against higher tiers or just having fun in spamming prem. ammo.
Another and even more viable possibility is to allow players set in garage different ammo configurations for tank in regard if he is top -1 or -2 in MM, which can prevent prem. ammo spaming just because player is already out of standart ammo, or on other hand give low pen tanks like Black Prince have high prem. ammo load for tier 9 games whre they really need it in order to not be completly useless when players standart 4 “decap” APCR rounds are gone…
Scouts:
Main problem for them are IMHO hard to spot TD’s with great view distance, it’s ok to have good view range for big as mountaint JgE-100 which can itself be seen from the moon, not so much in case of low profile TD’s which can spot enemy scouts first and then derp them into heaven, so low profile TD’s with great camo should have also lower view range in return. There is also no reason why scouts should not have buffed view range to allow them dominate at least in this aspect against opponents their will meet in same as arty got best alfa (even through in case of arty maybe bit too much) for its tier in order to be actually usable, as scouts and not just playing like fast mediums with no armor like Leo or stationary spotting drone behind the bushes.
Grammar nazi warning: I don’t care…
Arty as a class and any derp tank needs re-evaluation. I find it stupid that some people who first bitch about arty are then seen running around firing HESH on a 183 or playing a KV-2 derp, pretty much artillery with less reload and more accurate.
Secondly, TDs at the moment have view range to match that of mediums, won’t bother moving, some have armour and all of them have massive alpha. 6 tanks against 3 TDs camping base will often end in a draw because the TDs will spot the moving attackers and get a shot off before the attackers do.
LT – 400
MT – 390
HT – 380
TD – 370
1) I didn’t know that FV 183 or KV-2 can derp from one asshole of the map to the other, firing with impunity across the whole map, in a top-down God view…
2) “*TDs* some have armor and all of them have massive alpha” – and when you say “all of them” you of course are only thinking of Tier 10 TDs. Because the rest of them, from Tier 2 to Tier 9 (PHEAR THE STUG ALPHA!!!) are actually inexistent
Because in real life Tank Destroyers sitting in a bush will be seen before they see a medium that is driving at them in the middle of a open field??? and your forgetting about binocs and moving camo mechanics…ur stupid medium would still explode before ever spotting a td even with your special view range changes….I personally have no issues with spotting mechanics and am perfectly fine with them keeping it the way it is now….was playing scouts last night and out of 60 battles was over 4500wn8
In favour of TD’s also work weird WoT spotting mechanics which allow spot through transparent bush, then go back few meters behind bush and fire while being undetected. As you dont loose information about enemy position in same time as you loose direct line of sight but after few seconds, this is abused greatly by experienced players and especially works well for defenders…
And your problem is?…
Cool maybe you should try it sometime to :)!!!!!
Just pointing fact that one of the problem for scouts can solve itself if spotting mechanics will be reworked as planned by WG (in some distant future…).
If TD’s can spot for themselves and then also fire while remaining undetected its a bit of problem for scouts to counter (even when scouts uses this “bug” in spotting mechanics to their advantage at expense of slower enemy tanks with some flanking too and it’s too bit hard to counter for other classes like slow heavies).
If there is on other hand no delay between losing direct line of sight spot and loosing enemy after losing sight on him this will be much harder to abuse as you will need remember exact location of enemy or expected location of enemy on the move, which require also some brain quality to work thus much less common practice.
“- balance of individual vehicles”
I’d like to ask about the Leopard PTA personally. It’s being kept unhistorically nerfed for no apparent reasons. It’s one of the worst performing tier 9 medium tanks after Lorraine 40t. In real life the Leopard PTA was fitted with the same gun as Leopard 1 (the L7A3) and it could be depressed 9 degrees just like on Leo 1 in-game ATM. I wrote a topic on EU forums, but I doubt it reached the “higher ups in WG”:
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/410308-leopard-prototyp-a-historical-info-historical-buffs/
What I would personally ask is for the 9 degrees gun depression buff as the PTA is already really hard tank to drive in. It has zero armor and will be the 1st tank to be targeted by everyone. The depression buff would do two excellent things. It would make the tank much more enjoyable to use and it would actually be more historically accurate.
Another thing that could be done is change the gun to the L7A3 with nerfed stats from the Leo 1. Keep the horrible accuracy on the move if you must and the low RoF (that one suits PTA IMO, no more RoF buffs please that’s not the problem of the tank). Buffing the accuracy to 0.3 and aiming time to 2.1 would be lovely combined with the 9 degrees gun depression. Those small buffs would make PTA a lot more enjoyable and it would still have major weaknesses due to its nonexistent armor and extremely weak ammo rack.
~Judqment8
They purposefully made the PTA shit so people free xp out of it. They admitted this in a prior Q/A. I enjoyed the PTA though, it does have a high skill ceiling relative to the T54.
I don’t remember them ever admitting that PTA specifically was a “money cow” for them.
And I love my PTA, it’s still my favorite tank and most played one. It’s just with the current direction WoT is going with the map changes and new maps PTA will have even harder time than before.
Not to mention that it’s unhistorically UP.
“- balance of classes as a whole”
This should be a chess type approach. Heavy counters Meds, Meds counters TDs, TDs counters heavies holding all else equal.
“- balance of various tiers and issues in it”
Just too much difference in capabilities of 2 tier differences especially below tier 8.
“- balance of individual vehicles”
It would be interesting to know your methodology for balancing.
“- system issues of balance, for example “too much viewrange” or “too much penetration”
Measure characteristics relative to each other. (For example, the T54 pen goes from 201 to 330 or 219 to 330 if you use the slower firing gun this is a huge percentage pen increase compared to other tier 9 meds).
“- system issues of game mechanics, for example camo, or penetration mechanism”
Try talking to the players who understand these mechanics in-and-out from a game-play aspect.
Decrease dispersion of following classes by magnitude TD>heavy>medium>light>artillery.
Slightly increase aim time of TDs.
Decrease track traverse speeds of some TDs and some artilleries (263, SU-101, SU-122-54, obj 268, Foch 155, E3, E4, FV 183, jgpanther II, jagdtiger). Nerf artillery track traverse speed relative to extent of its horizontal gun arc (conqueror gun carriage, M53/M55, T92, FV3805, Obj 261)
Slightly decrease mobility of medium tanks, so light tanks can be more competitive for spotting (and maybe even running from mediums).
Too much viewrange on heavy tanks, TDs, artillery in following order.
Slightly increase mobility of heavy tanks with exception of already mobile heavy tanks (E5, 50b).
Increase role of armor, especially of heavy tanks (relative to high average penetration at higher tiers).
When weather effects appear introduce terrain resistance and viewrange change (so light tanks mobility and view range advantage comes into effect most), where tanks in certain cases (for example “mud” = rain + snow map or rain + sand), (“ice” = city map + snowy weather, green map + snow).
Buff maus (turret traverse and gun), maybe slight buff in mobility too.
Slightly nerf mobility of E-100.
Slightly nerf side armor of 263 and front armor or traverse speed.
Increase gun depression of Chinese tanks.
Slightly increase normalisation of APCR, but not as much as it was nerfed from.
Slightly buff HEAT shells when shooting at tank sides (tracks and spaced armor).
Make lower tiers (t4 – t7) more balanced and enjoyable to play (increase penetration of some of the guns, buff some less armored tanks, but not tanks that don’t rely on armor – paper tanks or tanks that already have good armor for its tier, buff accuracy of lower tier guns and aim times).
When determining balance consider alpha damage and ability to peak as well (terrain peaking, sidescraping potential of a tank)
Slightly nerf mobility of E-100….are you fucking kidding me…lmao e100 to mobile plz nerf omg:)
They already nerfed the traverse speed of the Foch 155 to hell, why do you want to beat it up more?
I dont read every comment as this post is now to long. :(
First point:
I would like to see more balance around Skill based Tanks. So that a skilled player is always superior to a less skilled player. That maybe would changed some thinkings and game play of this game. – But well I dont know if I would like that all the time ;)
2nd and most important thing bout Balance for me:
Tier class Balance. Some ppl already mention it. Atm we ve some serious problems between tiers. Not only between T3 and T5 also between T4 and T6 and T5 to T7. First T7 the heavies starts to ve some serious change against T9 tanks. Meds are mostly underpowered as low Tier. TD’s is different. The one with gd pen and mobility can be handled as low tier easier then the slow ones, cause there armor is ineffective against 2 Tier higher tanks. Equal if this r Meds, Lights or Heavies.
So especially those One-Shot potential as Low Tier if you meet 2 Tier higher enemy I see a problem in it. So there has to be done something in my eyes.
What to change I dont know. There are so many things u ve to think over. Just buff HP would lead into some other serious problems.
3rd:
Buff Low Tier French Tanks! ;)
Maybe not just them. The old ones on T2 to T4 are underpowered atm. The newly introduced tanks like Matilda are superior to the old ones like AMX-40 and B1. They are still cool tanks but if it comes to the point to chose a tank for having fun all time. Matilda is definitely better then those 2 French T4.
Remove arty, remove T10 TDs, remove autoloaders(or nerf them in a special way so they are actually punished for having fucking drum). There. I won’t ask for credits. Just make it happen.
Yes, let us nerf the autoloaders that are currently balanced in their performance rates alongside all the other tanks.
I’ve talked about these things extensively, so I’ll just try to sum it up here.
- Class imbalances, currently (for the most part), are caused by the MAPS that make up the game.
- Scouts and snipers are underpowered due to a general lack of scout-friendly and sniper-friendly areas on the majority of WoT’s maps.
- I believe that, in the future, key scouting bushes should not be sharable between teams (like the one in the field on Steppes for example) or directly corresponding on the opposite side from one another. Such things boil down to RNG responsibility, like: Which side’s light tank will get to the bush first to spot the enemies and the other light tank? If both are pretty much equally mobile, then the one who spawned closer to that area. Or both get there at the same time and they are forced to fight to the death, usually leaving the survivor completely wrecked and near useless afterward.
- If all the classes are to be balanced, then the maps need to not just cater to the few.
I’m not even going to talk about the “fairness” of getting nuked for 1800 dmg out of the blue whilst just doing your job on a flank all because you got spotted and aren’t directly behind a damn boulder 24/7. It’s a waste of time because I know nothing is going to be done about it, no matter how much it cripples gameplay and makes playing not enjoyable.
tier 3-5, 4-6, too much unbalanced IMHO. driving ANY tier 4 against MOST of tier 6 vehicles is without chance.. they got double the health, sometimes tripple the alpha, etc.
Armor as a whole is rubbish. It used to be fine before there were so many waffentragers and tanks with 300+ penetration on the battlefield. Driving some of the most armored vehicles and you still fear for your life because almost anything can pen you. It completely diminishes the feel of driving a TANK. Its more of a driving slow car with gun. They really should do something about this.. idk penetration nerf for EVERY tank ?
Dont know, but as it is now, mobile tanks are way OP. They dont rely on armor.
Problem is, HTs cant rely on it either.
You do realize that armor is completely irrelevant for tanks today…God forbid that people use tactics and their brains instead of sitting in a steel box driving around like a moron and getting away with it cause nothing can pen them……..thoughts any one:)???? this ridiculous crying about armor being useless is annoying use ur brains and use terrain to your advantage peekaboo exposing only your turret instead of sitting exposed whining about your armor not bouncing anything!!!!!!!! or drive the 263 and laugh as you bounce gold from every t10 out there:)
I’m not whining.. just sayin; … lets take a Maus as an example… that tank has nothing to offer except for armor… mobility is shit, gun is medicore… and armor is useless today. and yes, I am angling … turret can be penned from the front… this is not okay. You dont even have to flank it most of the time….
On the other hand, tanks like Leo1 or batchat dominate… they have no armor what so ever but have the mobility to compensate….
And yes, armor is irrelevant in tanks today – but these are WW2 vehicles, not modern tanks. Sorry but 395penetration or even 420 penetration is just wrong…
The maus turret can be angled to normally bounce heat rounds from any heavy tank in the game though….i thought maybe im wrong
There are tanks that are downright horrible. The ones I can name right now are the AMX-40, Sua40 and ARL 39V. I think the Chinese Vickers Mk. E Type B, VK20.01(D), Churchill VII and VK30.01(H) could use a buff or should at least be checked.
And the T18 is OP as hell ofcourse.
Churchill VII ?
really ? got 67% winrate in mine.
I don’t get that tank. It has no speed, weak gun (good RoF though) and the armour, it’s biggest strenght, doesn’t work because of two HUGE weakspots. So what does the Churchill VII have that could make it strong or usefull?
the armor is actually very good, you just need to get the angle right. in higher tier games, always sidescrape – hide the front.
Gun is rubbish, that’s true, in tier 8 games one in 10 shots penetrates.. when top tier, its doable and the armor in tier 6 games makes you almost invincible…
speed actually works for me… prevents me doing stupid and suicidal runs forward.
sidescraping should idd work. Hiding your front sounds a bit tricky: you would need cover with a very specific height because otherwise either the weakspots are still visible or you’re too low to fire over the cover. But you’ve made your point: It’s the best T6 sidescraper in the game.
P.S.: The Renault UE57 might also need a very small buff
Balance of classes as a whole:
Some TDs need their viewrange nerfed, but I guess this is likely to be part of a wider non-LT viewrange nerf in the future.
Arty needs either greater base XP earned per game, or less XP required to unlock modules.
With larger maps, could arty accuracy/aim time be improved in exchange for shorter range? This would require more movement/skill on the part of the arty players, and less rng. Also an alpha nerf to arty damage to help compensate for increased accuracy, so they couldn’t one-shot most tanks.
Some tanks seem a little fast for HT or MT.
Balance of various tiers and issues in it:
Tier 3 seems to naturally gets a lot of bad MM because it has -1 and +2.
Tier 3 and tier 6 tanks seem to struggle more against tanks two tiers above them (maybe its just me).
Balance of individual vehicles:
Just in the US tree, the one I’m familiar with, I can’t complain. I’ve played almost every tank in the line up to tier 8 (only tier 7 on arty and TD lines), and even though I didn’t like some tanks, I think they are all balanced fine. T18, Hellcat, and M4 deserved their nerfs. T21 sucked, even for a LT, but if LTs get a buff it should be okay.
System issues of balance, for example “too much viewrange” or “too much penetration”:
Viewrange for sure.
Penetration, I’m not sure. I think there is an issue with gold ammo balance. A few tanks, such as the T69, practically require gold ammo. Why is that? I would like to see their non-gold ammo pen improved.
- the 25 percent RNG in the game (for example damage, penetration) does NOT use even spread (SS: there is a higher chance to get the average damage than one of the extremes), therefore it won’t be reduced, Storm think it’s just fine
Say that to my american 120mm guns they are forever rolling low…any one else notice that with these guns
This! My T34 heavy shells eat the dirt all the time.
Arty makes me sad….Playing IS7 last night in one game got hit by t8 french arty for 2 500dmg hits… t8 american arty 750…then the maus i was powning finished me off…the only tank to pen me was the maus…was bouncing shots right and left because I am “OP”:)….now i did underestimate the amount of dmg the t8 arties would do to me so I was being a bit careless…but really when 2 t8 arties can completely wreck one of the most trollish heavies in the game in 3 shots how do you not have a problem with that?????? The best idea I have on keeping arty balanced is having a cap at 2…I really think it needs to be in the game for balancing issues…mainly so people like me dont own in hull down positions in their is7′s….So this is what I learned from this experience whenever I see 2 t8 arties in my IS7 and I get focused fired by them I may be forced to camp the game out so I dont get owned by clickers sitting in A1…because my armor is completely irrelevant to arty sadly…and I don’t really have the speed to relocate very far on the minimap to be effective in the battle…
For tier 9/10:
Penetration of medium vehicles are too high (~225 seems OK)
Alpha of some TD are too high (~750 seems OK) and the FV183/WTF are a problems in the game
Alpha/splash radius of some arties are too high
Penetration of well armored parts is too easy (maybe nerf progressively the +25% NRG of very high penetration ammunition ~+260mm?).
I dont see a problem with fv183 now… sure it oneshots me, but thats when he finally hits.. Oneshot is really annoying but dont forget it has to aim for a week…
wtf100 is bad. In my opinion this thing should be way more fragile.
2200 hitpoints is just stupid. 1v1 it can kill almost anything. Let’s say you are medium… 390dmg.. it takes 6 rounds to kill this thing. ~8s relaod time… this thing can empty whole clip to you before you fire 3rd shot…
give this thing 1000 hp and its okay. its camo or damage is not a problem, problem is that it takes ages to kill when finally spoted.
My biggest issues with WoT stem from its archaic game design:
1) Round server range or just completely remove that limit. The current square is absolutely horrible and any map rebalances done will be crushed when something happens with the server range. Honestly, i’d just remove it, since we’re not talking huge maps. If we’re keeping the maps around 1000×1000, server range should just disappear. Given the new structure of corridors in maps, we should leave TD’s have at least one advantage.
2) Server checks. Round them down to ~200ms for all tanks at all distances. ‘Appearing’ tanks from the ether is horrible from multiple points of view, but kills esport since you never ‘know’ if your spot happened or the enemies. Eventually if you’re going to keep it at ~500ms for everyone, sync it so someone doesn’t get a shot off just since my server spot check was later than his for no reason.
3) View range:
Camo, due to the 445m view range and steadily increasing viewrange for tanks from lower tiers up, capping at around 400 for everyone at tier 8-9, is mostly unexistent past tier 6. A serious rebalance needs to be done in regards to lights/mediums/heavy/TD. It’s bad for an IS7/IS4 to see the same as a toptier light. Currently even a proper light player can end up splattered because of the razor line of ‘how well’ they can see and camo versus the enemy’s view range which can be summed up to around 20 meters in the game minus equipment.
4) Double the density of the positional/movement grid points on maps. Let’s at least come closer to ‘faking’ that we’re playing a fluid game.
This matter is also coupled with the ‘disappearing’ tanks and the rumored spotting changes.
——————
With these fixes, i think WoT will be in a good place from a mechanics standpoint. One minor extra thing:
- Button for toggling allowing/disallowing the gun to move the chassis left/right in arcade. ELC/nonturretedTD etc.
Imho the game has two major flaws that need atention:
1. broken spot checks. I understand TDs disapearing, but HTs in the midde of a town?! (you see fences and walls crumbling ahead of you but not the tank o.O) I believe the devs tried to fix this already with no success. hope they didnt give up. its anoying as hell
2. mindless gold spam. imho there are many good reasons to use premium ammo(CW, battle deciding last shots, cap interruptons, etc) but spamming gold from start to finish is just being gone full retard.
as a remedy I would suggest strict loadouts, similar to the one that the first HB implementation had. Fixed amount of AP,HE, prem, for every tank.(havent thought about arty loadouts though)
in random battles one could choose between AP heavy loadout or HE heavy loadout.
(CWs would have the option to go full gold ofcourse). this would require the player to reconsider when he\she wishes to shoot premium.
The biggest balancing issue for me is the playstyle artillery uses and enforces, leading to poor map development. Every other vehicle in the game plays by the following rules: You must have LoS to your target to shoot it and it must be within render range to have any realistic chance of hitting it.
These two rules are incredibly important for the VICTIM, so the attacker cannot simply sit miles away and shoot at them unhindered. You have a hit detection system that provides a general direction, you know that there must be no obstacles between you and the aggressor, you know for certain that he must be within render distance and is most likely within spotting distance as well (~350-400m for most vehicles). Artillery completely break these rules by ignoring Line of Sight and Render Range restrictions, which is the fundemental issue with the class. WG clearly tried to experiment with the other features of SPGs on Bert but it was shown to be even worse by inducing permatracking and Death by a Thousand Cuts.
As it is now, you cannot retaliate to an artillery strike in any way, shape or form. It can shoot over mountains, hills and villages while sitting in a bush 800m away, which renders it impossible to spot. No amount of changes to accuracy, aim time, damage or mobility will fix this class as long as they do not follow the same rules as everyone else.
The only counters to current artillery implementation is either corridor map design to maximise cover on the move while limiting artillery lanes or camping (either behind tall cover or in base). The “arty prevents camping” sentence is something parroted by people who have no idea about basic game mechanics, simply because the people who sit in base doing nothing are the ones being spotted last and thus rewarded for NOT moving.
If you can’t think of a solution to the LoS issue while keeping arty unique, you can at the very least force them to follow the Render Range rules and have them move up behind the advancing teammates. This provides a significant risk if they want to stay efficient and a threat to the enemy team, while still keeping them far enough away from the action in most scenarios (this likely will require increased RoF, better aim time and lower damage, though). People are not just sick of arty because of the ridiculous damage to modules and HP but because they are completely powerless to respond. At the very least a 183, Waffle or JPE100 will get a direct response from teammates of their victims and will be on everyone’s “watch list” for the rest of the game.
With artillery, all you can do is say “I guess I didn’t want to have fun anyway” and hope someone takes care of it while you camp and try to do damage in your now severely limited engagement area.
When I read this, I immediately thought, “Wait, some people think arty needs a BUFF?” I think arty is just fine the way it is.
Arty is broken in the current game, though a good portion of that comes from most of the maps having little to no cover to hide behind (Malinovka, Prokorovka, etc). There is something wrong when a player can sit in complete safety at the back of the map and still be able to do a ton of damage across it without moving the entire match, requiring any skill, or exposing themselves to any danger at all. I’ve seen more games than I care to count turn into giant camp fests because there are a lot of arty in a match and no one wants to be the first lit as there is no cover. Love the influx of city maps for the cover they provide and where arty now punishes you for going somewhere dumb instead of just being a hand of god across an open map.
As for tanks that need changes, first off the KV-2. The gun for that tier is ridiculous, and there is no way its accuracy is what the paper says it is. After 100 games when it has better accuracy stats than 100 games in my Cent 7/1 with .32 accuracy, there is definetly no way the KV-2 has .6.
Tiger II I feel deserves a bit of an armor buff, as it just feels too weak and is underperforming compared with its counterpart the IS-3, backed by stats of both overall and in my own statistics after a similar number of games.
Centurion 7/1 could use a slight rate of fire buff as it is the lowest dpm of tier 9 mediums and since the HD model brought a significant nerf to the turret armor which was its main advantage.
Gold ammo.
Well I definetly feel it needs some changes. Lowering the damage on HEAT and APCR shells sounds like a decent idea, I feel it should scale with the difference in pen to the tanks normal shell. Of course I also feel there should be a few exceptions to the rule, like the T69.
HESH gold shells really just need to be reworked to something like how they work in real life (lots of normalization or something). As they stand they are pretty retarded. 230 pen HESH shell fails to penetrate a 20mm rhm borsig turret shield from 30 meters because it is a bit sloped? Just bs.
-Reclassify the AMX 40 as a medium with improved HP, 220 horsepower engine, soft stats improvements.
-Buff the B1 to the B1 ter model, either with an SA 37 with historical stats or the proposed 400 horsepower engine.
-Give the SAu-40 the S-35′s historical armor and a 90mm DCA 30
-Improve aiming time on the ARL V39
-Improve AMX M4 view range to 370 meters, speed to ~45, reduce terrain resistance, improve RoF slightly along with slight aim time improvement.
-Give AMX 13 75 the 13 90′s engine, 400m view range, and buff penetration to ~170mm.
-Give the AMX AC and Foch either their former 50mm side armor, or some buffs to compensate the Foch 155 nerf that affected them.
French tree is the only one I really know much about in depth.
Well, heavies have somewhat lost their point, what with premium ammo and powercreep guns, and artillery seriously needs a rebalance because it’s not fun for anyone and the main problem with artillery, the huge alpha damage, still hasn’t been fixed.
Just as a one tank thing. VK4502 P ausf. B. The tier 9 heavy leading to the maus. It needs a lower glacis nerf by 20-50mm. Currently it is just crazy. There are two frontal “weakspots” atm, the MG port which has one tiny flat bit of 200mm armour and the cupola which is tiny and quite strong and surrounded by bounce zones unless you are shooting down which is hard because it is a big tank. It just isn’t right to have a tank with 200mm upper and lower glacis. They are the same strength. The weakspots really aren’t weak and they are very hard to hit. I recognise that before it may have been under-performing and it isn’t as popular as the E-75 but the Maus isn’t as popular as the E-100. Atm it is just overperforming because only Heatspam on high pen tanks e.g. T-54 is going through due to the slope. There should be more to a tank than just not fucking up and letting them flank you, otherwise just drive forward and don’t get shot by tier X TDs.
Don’t fight it frontally then, it has no armor on side and rear unlike the Maus and it turns slow. The front armor on the VK is its only strong-point, there was a reason to buff the armor for this tank.
I think the LT viewrange is a good idea but some paper tanks rely on viewrange aswell
- Leopard PTA
- Leopard 1
- Type61
- Tiger I
etc
- T-54 should be nerfed heavily on VR or make hull 100mm
Arty: Arty needs to be reworked into two separate styles, barrage and bombard. A barrage style arty would have low arc, high RoF, and low accuracy, with high splash range. A bombard style arty would have high arc, low RoF, high accuracy, and low splash range. A low gun elevation on barrage style artillery should help accomplish this; perhaps a mobility buff to barrage style artillery as well. Shell velocity becomes an even more important balance factor in isolation of changes to how the game calculates shell arc, which allows for greater differentiation between artillery pieces.
I would rework arty accuracy so that the dispersion is even worse than 80% center; something like 40, 50%, and buff the base accuracy so that 0.6m or 0.7m would be a very inaccurate cannon, a la ConquerorGC. This changes the aiming philosophy from aiming to get a direct hit to the general application of splash damage, which is inherently lower damage. To compensate, arty DPM should be buffed across the board, though testing per piece would be required.
Next, I would buff splash range for lowtier, midtier, and hightier arty. Something like 3m at the lowest for tier 2, to 30m at tier 10 for the T92. Splash range only affects overall damage output and non-penetrating hits, which are currently a problem–arty fire is currently an instakill or a joke. To decrease the effects of splash range, I would nerf the alpha damage on artillery such that their HE rounds are only 20~30% higher damage than the HE round of an equivalent TD gun. It would be worthwhile to look back at the outrageous alpha potential of tier 9 and 10 TD’s, as such high damage, automatic pens are not healthy for the game.
The overall purpose of these changes would be greater differentiation amongst artillery pieces and a more healthy, consistent style of play for these vehicles.
Also worth mentioning are medium tanks. I am aware that tier 10 medium tanks do everything by design, however, this makes comparing medium tanks rather easy–problematic if theme or feel is an important aspect of the game. It changes from, “this is the tank to pick when you need incredibly accurate sniping on the move” to “this tank is blatantly better at medium tanking”. The only changes I can suggest here would be picking a more well-defined theme to that line and to change statistics accordingly–perhaps the Bc25t could stand to lose some gun depression, accuracy, and gun handling in exchange for a faster in-clip reload and higher stealth. Maybe the Object 140 could lose turret side, rear armor in exchange for much higher HP:ton and hull traverse.
I am aware that changing medium tanks would involve changing many player’s favorite vehicles, however, they do all feel really samey at the moment, and that means that tanks like the M48 Patton, FV4202, and 121 blatantly lose out to tanks like the STB-1, BC25T, Object 140.
Going through low tiers, there’s a few that catch my eye down there.
Low tier derps. Pz-4, M4, T82, etc. these need some changes. Ridiculously strong and the reload is not long at all for how much fire power they get.
T2 Light: why does this thing get to see tier 4s when no other tier 2 does? It has neither the gun nor the view range to be able to deal with tier 4s. With all the changes to scout mm for low tiers, why has this tank been skipped?
Matilda: I have yet to find another tank that can win a game just by being that tank. Full blown tomato? Carries because no one can pen. Afk bot? Draw because no one can pen and time runs out. Put it in the hands of a decent player and then you get a very fast firing, high pen, good accuracy gun that will rip tanks to peices.
How about no xp or credit gained when gold rounds are used?
My COMPLETE balance approach:
Light tanks
Light tanks should be noob-friendly up to tier IV. So, vehicles on tier IV should not get scout MM. OR the vehicles should only be given scout MM after 15 games. Also, maybe a possibility to follow tanks you spotted from the enemy team. This would only be possible with a 100% crew.
Medium tanks
T-28 definately needs a buff. All it’s guns are awful. The 57 mm gun needs a minor RoF buff. M3 Lee needs a buff to it’s HP. A large buff would be the multi-gun system though. The Panther also needs a more noob-friendly gun with more RoF and less pen. 3002D needs a better L/70 and the T-34 needs a buff to the RoF of the long 76.
Heavy Tanks
The tier IV heavies definately need a buff. The B1 needs more pen and the DW2 needs better armor. The DW2 seems like a slow med with more hp atm. Churchill 7 can use a RoF buff as it has a medium tank gun and it needs to deal similar if not better dpm than the other tier 6 heavies to compensate for the flat armor. IS could use a very minor buff to the 100 mm gun to make the gun an improvement over the KV-85′s gun.
Tank destroyers
The German Jagdpanzer IV needs a RoF buff to the L/70 to make it an alternative option. Any major buff to the SAu 40 is ok. Nerf the 150 mm on the borsig in RoF.
SPGs:
Remove vehicles above tier V and make an arty strike consumable which can be used once in 3 games and can be upgraded in dmg.
Make prem ammo +25% penetration / -25% damage compared to the default AP round. Then tanks are still balanced from a firepower perspective. Seems a simple solution.
For light tank rebalance, make it so sixth sense doesn’t go off when a light tank is the only vehicle spotting you. So high tier meds can still spot, but less effectively than scouts in high tier games.
2nd suggestion would need a LOT of testing as it could make them far too influential. But an alternative to just nerfing all non-light view ranges.