Getting rid of the overpowered T18

Hello everyone,

if you played on low tiers during this Christmas, you are probably familiar with this situation: you want to take your shiny new gift tank for a spin, enter the battle and… both teams have a sealclubbing platoon of T18 TD’s, played by experienced players with trained crews – and you can’t do anything about it, your bullets (literally, as the main gun of the Vickers Mk.VIc is a machinegun) bounce off it and it tears your team up – whichever team has better T18 players, wins. Your first thought: that thing’s overpowered, we should get rid of it!

But wait, we can’t just do that. There has to be a reason. Let’s break down the T18 situation into three questions:

- is it really overpowered?
- is it historical?
- what can be done about that?

Is it overpowered?

T18 tier 2 US TD is one of the typical “statpadding” and “sealclubbing” vehicles. If you are wondering, what the hell is statpadding and sealclubbing: statpadding is artificially making your stats better so you appear as a better player than you really are by using overpowered or broken vehicles. Sealclubbing (also called pedobearing or twinking) is a situation, where an experienced player takes his trained crew and return to very low tiers to prey upon the newbies with it – his skill, experience and trained crew giving him an obvious advantage. Technically, sealclubbing is “just” the means you use when you are statpadding, but not always – some people do it simply for fun.

While not illegal, both such practices are frowned upon and are generally (in gaming world that is, as this issue exists in pretty much any game, separated by levels or tiers) considered dishonorable. That obviously can’t stop trolls, sealclubbers and statpadders from doing it anyway, but it should not be encouraged, as it drivesnew players away.

The T18 is a really bad case of a broken vehicle due to its thick armor. While not that big of a deal to an experienced players, combined with a powerful howitzer gun, it might definitely seem unbeatable to new players who drive around in their machinegun tanks. But is it REALLY overpowered?

Yes, yes it is. Take a look at this graph, made using Edrard’s “new method” tool on wot-news (if you don’t know what this graph means and are interested in it, I suggest you read this post first)

untitled2

Here you can see that the vehicle is clearly OP. The “meeting point” (where the general winrate and the vehicle winrate cross) is very low (46 percent). That means that as long as you are a player with winrate 46 percent or more, you will achieve better winrate on this vehicle than is your regular winrate, sometimes significantly. Just for comparison, this is the data for KV-1S (a vehicle universally recognized as one of the most OP vehicles out there):

untitled

While the KV-1S curve looks a bit different, there are two important comparison moments. First, the “meeting point” for the T18 is even lower (46 percent) than the one for KV-1S (47 percent). That basically means you need even less skill to achieve better results for the T18 than for the KV-1S. Second point is, if you have a look at both of the curves, they start to differ significantly above 55 percent winrate, but up to 55 percent, T18 curve is actually even a bit higher. That – in simple terms – means that for players from 46 to 55 percent winrate (which is probably like 95 percent of the playerbase), T18 is even more overpowered than the KV-1S!

Strangely enough, using wot-news as the same reference, the winrate of the T18 is not that high as its stats would suggest: 50,11 percent for last four weeks (this is for the EU server). What is even stranger is that the RU server stats – while the T18 winrate there is higher on the RU server (50,36 percent), but ever since January 2013, Russian winrate on this vehicle has been steadily dropping, while the EU winrate stagnates on the same level for practically a year. I can only guess that this is due to the influx of new players, who have to “get over it” without knowing what to do.

The vehicle average on this tier overall is around 48-49 percent, so it is OP from this point of view (using the same method, KV-1S overally winrate is 49,6 percent and we all know how broken that tank is). So yes, using even regular winrate we still have an issue here.

I will take a guess here and will blame it on the armor. A vehicle so resistant on such a low tier (it can be safely knocked out only by other tank destroyers or tanks carrying 37mm and bigger guns) is always going to be a problem.

Is it historical?

Yes and no. The vehicle is not a fake if that’s what you mean – it was an evolution step to the M8 Scott HMC. However, there is one significant catch: it was not a tank destroyer, it always was an artillery vehicle (SPG). This issue plagues the US tree in general in fact – the T82 also was an artillery vehicle, but the T57 (SPG in the game) was a tank destroyer. The_Chieftain from US forums has been fighting for a long time to get this fixed, but given the Wargaming response times, nothing came of it – for now at least, despite it being an elegant solution: switching the T57 SPG to TD (as it was in real life) would solve the armor problem, while T18 “artillery” piece would be heavily armored, but also extremely sluggish (artillery as a class gets a mobility nerf almost every time, the “fast” artillery vehicles such as the British FV304 being the exceptions), which would solve the whole sealclubbing thing.

What can be done about it?

Well, I mentioned one of the solutions above, but that would require complete rebalance of both (or even three/four, should the tree be made historical) vehicles and that’s not a simple or easy thing to do. Therefore, there is one more solution – not exactly historical (a SPG would stay as a TD), but “simplier” in terms of balance. Replace the T18 with the T3 HMC.

The T3 Howitzer Motor Carriage was an experimental vehicle, that can be found in Hunnicutt’s “Stuart” book (thanks to Priory_of_Sion for telling me). It was the first step in the direction, that would eventually lead to the M8 HMC (T18 was the second step in the line). This is how it looked:

t3how_001

It’s worth noting that the initiative to replace the T18 with the T3 is not new. While American vehicles are not a priority for the EU server, on the US server the discussion about them is (logically) more lively and several people were suggesting this switch, perhaps as early as a year ago, so the credit for this idea goes to them, not to me.

About the T3 then: it was a 1939 project to build a self-propelled gun on the chassis of the M1 Combat Car. The main gun was the M1A1 75mm howitzer (same gun as the T18 has in the game). The armor was significantly thinner: the hull front was only 5/8in (15,9mm) thick, the sides of the superstructure were 1/2in (12,7mm) thick and the rear was only 1/4in (6,3mm) thick. The main drawback seems to be the fact that if the doors of the superstructure were closed, the gun could not traverse at all. If these doors were open (can be modelled or simply omitted), the gun could travel 10 degrees to the left and 15 degrees to the right. The gun could depress to -10 degrees and elevate to 20 degrees. The vehicle had a crew of three, weighed cca 9 tons and
could go as fast as 45 miles per hour (72 km/h!).

The vehicle was rejected by the Field Artillery Board (see? artillery) because it offered too little space for the crew inside (in game terms, this could be compensated by reduced rate of fire) and the fact a single loader would be too strained firing the 75mm gun quickly. Later tests conducted at Aberdeen however proved this to be false – the vehicle would be suitable for service. Only one prototype was built however, the vehicle was not mass-produced.

As you can see, in game terms, it would be a trade-off. The armor would be gone, but the gun would remain and there would be additional speed (although how MUCH speed and how the acceleration would be is another matter – M1 Combat Car itself was powered by a 250hp Continental W-670 – 27,7 hp/t!) – it would still be a trolltank (speed + powerful gun), but it would no longer have that “I am shooting it and it does nothing” factor.

So yes, I think this would be a suitable replacement without rebalancing other vehicles. Of course, a model would have to be made, so resource-wise, I am not sure whether this is actually cheaper, but it sounds easy enough.

Source:

A History of the American Light Tank (Vol.I: Stuart) by R.P.Hunnicutt

154 thoughts on “Getting rid of the overpowered T18

  1. I’d prefer having the t3, it would be more comfortable to play (better gun depression and probably view range) while removing the issue of imba armor + KV-5 style ramming power of the T18.

    • or maybe they could remove the 350 bhp engine from the T18? it should move well enough with the 269 bhp one.

      • Unless they find another solution, I’d say keep the T18. The problem with the T3 is that it could very likely suck. What’s the point of a fast tank with a derpgun and no armor? A fast tank would make players want to dash to the frontlines (screwing their accuracy in the process), and then they have to stop and sit vulnerable while their gun aimed. By that point, they’d be on low hp or flat out dead.

        Keep the T18. Let the newbies learn the hard way about shooting for weakspots and the value of good penetration. It’ll be an important lesson to take to the higher tiers.

        • So… how about we remove the top engine then? You can have a highly armored tank with a derp gun if you want, but you can’t have one that’s fast TOO.
          Right now the T18 is like a JPZE-100 flying around like a patton and that just doesn’t work.

        • What’s the matter Varon. You can’t be useful in other tank beside T18? How about we give you even more powerful engine so you can club newbies even harder and faster?! Srsly morons like you make me disgusting. Typical powercreep noobs. And if you think T3 would suck then you just proved how noob you are. You obviously never drove Tetrarch who is also a combo of a monster gun and speed, but without armor and it’s quite and OP tank in right hands, but not in yours, not in yours.

          • I wouldn’t compare it to the Tetrarch due to the fact that the Tet have a gun with good accuracy and a turret, I’d compare the T3 to the UC 2-pnder.

        • The problem with the T3 is that it could very likely suck. What’s the point of a fast tank with a derpgun and no armor?

          Yes, that must be why hellcat sucks and nobody plays it…oh, wait….

          • It’s not a matter of aiming with a T7CC, you literally have to be at point blank range flat on the back of a T18 to kill it, and only if you know to shoot at a very thin strip of lightly angled armor that no newb would know about without researching on the internet.
            On top of that, the T18 turns faster than a T7, so you CAN”T flank it unless the the T18 driver is a moron.
            You also can’t track a T18 with a T7, so don’t suggest that either.
            T18 is completely broken, and needs a nerf. Kill the engine, kill the turn rate, kill the side and rear armor, do something WG!

            • It’s even worse in the Mark VIC, which lacks penetration to such a degree that even point-blank range from the rear, it’s highly unlikely any shots from the BESA will get through a T18′s armor.

    • Seriously, the only tier 2 i don’t fear t18 when drive is Tetrarch. T18 is broken… to much frontal armor in tier 2, have derp gun to 1~2 shot enemy, because it TIER 2. what tier 2 can hit it without luck in 300m distance?
      i think the good way is replace it. Even remove 75mm gun is not helping much. or they can move it to tier 3 to turretless TD line with a new gun. Look like (T3 -> T18 -> T40 -> m10…..) when other line is (T3 -> T82 -> M8 -> T49). That’s just an idea
      My Tetrarch is a bit OP (75% WR), but it’s fun to play, and only good in right hand. Not like that T18

      • The Tetrarch is only good if you’re an experienced driver; It lacks armor, view range and have long aim time compared to other tank with the same 2 pounder gun.

    • The only way to kill M18 with Light MK VIC is to get right behind it and shoot the top cover of the engine! you are tall enough to do that and has enough gun depression to do so! getting in it’s back is the difficult part!

  2. it’s the same as it was with micromaus – it’s just invulnerable to all except 2-3 other vehicles in battle – but micromaus had very special treatment in matchmaking that t18 has not.

    Comparing pure win ratio is not useful becuase in most battle amount of t18 is equal on both sides, and in the battles there are differences – it’s usually 3 vs 2.

    but even “new method” (which is not really new) doesn’t show the main problem with t18 caused by it’s armor – how easy it is to pwn others in this tank. win ratio schmatio, driving t18 as long as you dont see any of 2-3 other enemy tanks that can damage you, you just go out in the open, click until opponents died and go further.

        • Difference? Well, Micromaus is fun, but it doesn’t have a howitzer, that can oneshot tier 2 tanks in addition to it’s armor. Also, there aren’t 3 Micromaus tanks on each side of the battle. The same result as with Micromaus (well, roughly) can be achieved by using lowtier French tanks, but their guns suck too, so… *shrugs*

          This is however a system problem. There are simply too many T18′s. BTW yes, Micromaus is OP too.

          • Micromaus doesn’t have speed of T18 too and usually can’t react to battlefield in real time other than “keep pushing forward”.

            While I don’t mind T18 having thick frontal armor, but side/back armor basically bulletproof against most lowtier machineguns (only L/112 FlaK can handle it) is problematic

          • Micromaus OP? Hell no. It used to be when it only saw Tier 1 – 2 battles. Now it almost always gets into Tier 3, where it is close to useless. Maybe the Tier 2 tank itself is OP, but its MM actually renders it UP imho.

          • I should point out that while yes the Micromaus can be a bit broken I’ve personally found them easy to kill, even when I was a noob. Why? Because I would always shoot the first part of the tank I usually saw, which is also its biggest weakspot: the turret (granted, its a small turret, but the entire turret’s a weakspot, so as long as you can hit it and you can outlast his gunfire, you can kill him).

            The T18, on the other hand, only really has a couple of frontal weakspots, one of which is a sloped piece of steel which will probably still bounce shots, and the other being the area around the gun, which most guns at tier 2 aren’t accurate enough to target; yes, there are accurate guns at that tier, like the 2-pounder Mk.X, but they’re only really accurate when you have a 100% crew on your tank, but realistically speaking, who besides true seal clubbers will have 100% crews on a tier 2 tank?

        • Try to kill T18 with H35/Micromaus. Try to kill H35 With T18. Do you see the difference??
          H35 = OP armor, average gun, poor mobility (I didnt play Micromaus, but i think it will be very similiar to H35)
          T18 = OP frontal armor, awesome gun, good mobility.= no weaknesses.

          • Actually the H35′s 25 mm gun can be quite effective as a mid-range sniper, comparable to the 2-pounder Mk.X on the Cruisers (and happens to be an option for the T18, though most people use the howitzer instead). That being said your point still stands: the H35 sacrifices mobility for its advantages. The T18 sacrifices a turret, but it doesn’t really NEED a turret when its armor can protect it well enough while it turns around.

            Its only REAL weakness, which I’ve been able to exploit on maps like Malinovka, is terrible view range, which means my Loltraktor with full camo skill, camo net, vents and binocular telescope will let me see him LONG before he sees me and kill him with 37 mm APCR…but that’s with a tricked out sealclubbing vehicle, not the kind of tank the average pub is going to be using down at tier 2, which will more likely than not not be fully-upgraded and will have a 50-75% crew with no skills and no equipment slots filled. For the average player, coming face to face with a T18 is a death sentence.

        • I smell hypocrisy.. You should admit the fact that you did some nice clubbing (probably more than once), you were well aware of the fact, that the lower tiers will be flooded with tanks that couldnt harm you, boasted about your results and presented “useful” tips how to sealclub.

        • H35 really isnt. Yes, its armor can not by penetrated by autocannons, but dont forget that it is too slow and its cannon really isnt powerfull. H35 becomes very OP only in games full of T7 Combat Cars or Vickers Lights, but when comes to regular tier II match it really isnt OP.
          Just fact that tanks armor can not be penetrated by some guns of its tier doesnt make that tank OP. Just see AT-2…. Do you think it is OP?

          And yes…H35 really sucks in tier III battles.

    • Except that the micromaus is slower, the gun doesn’t one shot everything it sees and can actually be frontally penned by auto-cannons.

      And shoot the UFP of the T18.

      • And that’s why fucktards can’t see real reason for some tanks being OP. See, tank is not OP if it has one good side and mediocre/bad other. Tank is OP when it combines all the good sides in one tank. You really think H38/H35 is OP? Well ask someone who has it on his account to let you play few games with it and see if it’s OP. Yes, it used to be OP when it was mostly against T1 and T2 tanks. Nowadays it has much harder MM than usual T2 tanks and sees T3 battles quite often and there not only is not OP, but it’s quite UP. Why? Well because it’s mobility/speed SUCKS. And gun is nothing, but a mediocre. And with all the new tanks in game nowadays there is tons of T2 tanks that can pen it without a problem. And with gold ammo it’s really not worth mentioning. And if you have even a bit of clue you can kill it even with regular ammo. It has two big weakspots from the front. But i see why would you start a discussion about H38 just to switch focus from your precious broken T18 because of your fear of it getting removed or nerfed.

  3. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Leave it alone….

    It has terrible traverse and extremely slow reversing, otherwise any TD with good frontal armour and troll gun needs a nerf.. and that is quite a lot of them when you go up the tiers…

    Noobs need to learn how to turn and flank an enemy.. this is the ideal vehicle for them to learn against for when they meet the Foch’r…

    • and thats your problem right there….Try to outturn Foch 155 with a medium tank….unless its reloading its going to make minced meat out of you simply because it turns so fast not to mention its superb armor and gun….so no leaving it alone isnt a a good solution because its too good at everything and T18 doesnt even suffer from having an autoloader like the Foch does

      in fact youre a typical STATPADDER so of course you want to keep it that way youre below average or average at best BUT your stats would suggest otherwise after a brief glance however if you take a better look you play sealclubbing tanks a lot: Hellcat, kv-1s, T49 etc.

      • ooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

        How dare you associate me with them oiks…..I am mortally offended…!!

        “I play 4 fun”

        PS… Don’t come on here to start flame wars or personally attack someone.. GTFO….
        PPS.. I have outturned and fooked up Foch’s…
        PPPS… Sarcasm detection failure…

          • “below average”, “Statpadder”

            You can’t discuss a tank without targeting someone personally. You’ve done it before numerous times.

            My last comment, since I’m not flaming on SS’s blog. ………….GTFO.

            • thats not flaming thats how it is…in the same way you can say i suck at playing TDs because thats simply true

              and no i have NOT done that numerous times because this is my first post in a thread about tank balancing

              anyway T18 is simply OP anyone claiming otherwise is either a T18 player or a troll

              • I seem to recognise your name from previous FTR threads personally attacking people (me certainly…)…

                SS… I said I wasn’t going to reply to him again, but I just can’t help it sometimes… :trollface:

                • well then youre wrong because the only other thread ive ever posted in was about one of the new maps and i dont attack people personally without a reason ;)

            • Well actually… I rather have fun flanking T18s in my T7 combat car and melting them by shooting at the upper engine deck at the back. I love the rage I cause.
              If anything happened to T18, keep it the way it is, but remove the derp.

    • And you should learn how to play in higher tiers as well. Not exactly saying that i am the one to teach, but at least i try to be better and move on in this game.

    • Pls tell me when became the reverse speed an important battlecharacteristic? I seen it from Foch fanboys too, but come on, it is a characteristic but it never be a main thing. You cant compare 2 tanks with the reverse speed. Its just ridiculous.

      • Reverse speed is important where you have good front armour but rubbish side/rear, no turret, an terrible traverse speed because

        + you can back up & turn to face flankers rather than have to go forwards and effectively “help them flank” even more, fwd/rwd movement usually helps turn rate and avoiding/deflecting shots
        + If you have been charged and you need to keep your front armour facing forwards
        + You are near, but not actually next to hard cover and need to get into that hard cover

        Any tank that can reverse (and accelerate) quickly is a safer, and therefore more “survivable”, tank…

        Case in point to show how it affects tanks… get the Pz1C and go arty hunting… when you find a slow turn, slow speed tank, you can run up close, behind, left, right, upside down and inside out, and rape the beejesus out of him… you catch one unawares and he is dead in seconds.. and probably rape his arty mate 40m away because he cant turn on you quick enough either… (yay!!)

        Important now?

        • every fast tank the Pz IC meets is very weak armored and can be penetrated by the Pz IC from any direction.

          In Fact, only the slower vehicels (D2, AMX 38, T70) have a chance to survive a barrage unharmed.

          For High-Tiers your argument is true. But these tanks (Foch, T18, whole french TD-Line Tier 7+) need some sort of weakness.
          Foch has the weakness, that its screwed once its flaked (and the flanker knows what he does).

            • I agree with SS, with these tanks (t18, kv1s) the main problem is not (just) the fact, that they are strong, but there are many of them. Some months after kv3 was moved 1 tier up, there werent many kv1s, so the tier 6 battle wasnt so annoying. And some months after the us td line werent many t18, but sometimes later many player notice, that its Op so it would be fun to troll other tier2 tanks.

              Reverse speed: Yes, it could be important, but i said, that its never be so important, that the gun, or armor.

              • http://pokit.org/get/img/687d42c676f61496a77dbf643d1efcb2.jpg

                Not only a statpadder, but fail statpadder. Now stop clubbing people with 20 battles played in total and focus on someone of your own size. Yes, you can call this a flame. See if i care. But when i see how desperately you are defending the broken T18 just proves me right. And i find it funny how you are desperately trying to prove how reverse speed is the most important stat in this game. All that while implying how newbies who just started playing this game knows everything about flanking, outmaneuvering, facehugging, target focusing etc. while in reality they can’t differentiate the front of their tank from rear.

            • The weaknesses of the T18 are trivial.

              Low reverse speed? Fair enough, but the side and rear armor aren’t exactly thin by tier 2 standards.

              Lack of a turret? Only a problem for a T18 driver if you manage not to get killed for long enough to flank him (which is possible because of the 75 mm’s inaccuracy, but don’t bet on it, because getting closer to a T18 to flank it also makes it easier for it to hit you with that howitzer). Shooting the tracks is the best way to use this to one’s advantage, but again, you have to live long enough to get out of the line of fire.

              Sluggish traverse? See the previous one.

              Poor View Range? The only true weakness of the vehicle, but one that isn’t unique to it at tier 2, and it can be mitigated by crew skills, consumables and equipment, any of which the typical seal clubber will be using in their arsenal anyway.

              —-

              This alone is why the T18 is broken: when the entire metagame of an entire tier revolves around one vehicle, that vehicle has some serious problems. Seriously, even the KV-1S doesn’t have as much of an impact within its own tier (unless you’re in medium tank company battles, but that’s another story).

        • Fair enough, but the T18′s side and rear armor isn’t exactly poor by tier 2 standards. Sure it’s much easier to penetrate than the front, but they’re still quite a tough nut to crack with tanks that are stuck with machine guns or autocannons as their best available weapons (the Panzer II comes to mind; I remember that fighting T18s was a nightmare in that thing unless you had at least one other tank drawing his fire while you got around his flank).

  4. I have the T18. I only play it when in platoons that want to go to lower lines, and do pretty well usually, given that the crew isn’t skilled (about 90% primary).
    I really dislike it as a tank, it just feels awkward to play at anything other than medium range, where it does do really well.

    If it had wider gun traverse or turned faster, I might like it, but tier 2/3 games are really fast paced and I find myself wishing for a turret whenever I take it out.

    If the T3 turned faster I would really welcome it with open arms both for playing with, and playing against.

    • “If it had wider gun traverse or turned faster, I might like it…”

      Yeah, T18 is horribly underpowered… Still, its the reason why i already sold the combat car and not playing the vickers.

        • T18 iz not stronk ’nuff.
          giv it stronk BL-10, so it will not underperform in the future

      • I’m not saying it is underpowered, or even not OP. that’s the reason I have it rather than any other.

        It just doesn’t suit my play style as much as other tanks do. I like my tanks to be able to react quickly, and the T18 takes a lot longer to turn than turret+hull of other tanks. Keep it at medium range and the gun can work wonders though.
        Ipso facto I don’t like it yet do well in it. The two are not mutually exclusive.

        If I were to choose a tier 2 for keeping, it’d be the Tetrach, but I’ve not been around nearly long enough to have one, and there was no way I was buying the lowe to get one.

  5. ‘Of course, a model would have to be made, so resource-wise, I am not sure whether this is actually cheaper, but it sounds easy enough.’

    If they can spend money on stupid gift tanks why couldn’t they actually spend it for something useful?

  6. Cruiser III eats the T18 for lunch. The T18 regularly gets into tier 3 games where it can be one or two spotted by any other tank destroyer, it is vulnerable to artillery. The T18s traverse is bad, there are weak spots on the front… If you know how to play the game, you’ll know how to play the T18. It’s not as if we see arguments to nerf the Micromaus.

    • Mimimi

      Any Tier 1-2 Tank is screwed when hes up-front with a T18

      Beginners don’t know weakspots, nor the weaknesses of enemy or their own tanks

      T18 is simply to stong against new players

        • :3 Check my stats. I think the t18 is a little OP but not so far that it’s a real problem. Most of the T18s I see are complete noobs that die in the beginning of the match. the other more experienced t18s I eliminate myself :P

          Note, I tried to like t18, but I didn’t. It’s not the tank for me. I prefer the tetrarch. t7, t1e6, and the VIC.
          (my other guilty pleasure is the nerfed t57 arty)
          Only nerf I want the T18 to have is worse rear armour and a 1-2 degree lower traverse. That way they are still hard opponents, but much easier to beat at the same time. Only thing I find OP on the T18 is the fact I have to struggle to pen it in the rear. (you can pen it in the gun you know.)

          I can pen H35 easier with my t7 because the low armour spot on the top of the engine deck on H35 is easier to hit than t18. So t18′s rear armour needs a nerf, and the traverse needs a small nerf. otherwise I enjoy pwning t18s.

          If you say I have bad stats, I don’t care. I have never once statpadded nor run pwnage Kv-1s platoons. Infact I think the Kv-1s is so overrated that it took me this long to finally get one fully upgraded, and I’ve only had one battle with the top gun. (I dislike overated tanks because I see their flaws)
          Also, The main thing that needs to be nerfed on Kv-1s is its speed, but that’s not here nor there.
          Basically, I never go on statpad runs. I play low tiers for fun occasionally, but I don’t grind my stats to super great levels on the poor noobs.

          My most played and loved tank is the M7, A tank widely regarded as having a major case of suck. Take that :P 700 battles +

          As a final note, You’re allowed to have your opinion, I’m just attempting (and probably failing) to prove you wrong about the only players who don’t think the T18 is hyper OP are trolls or t18 lovers. If the t18 struggles even more to turn, it would be even easier to counter in the type of tanks I play. and weaker rear armour? yes please.

          I wouldn’t mind the t3 coming into the game though, I love fast tanks, and if it were faster than the T18 and didn’t suffer from horrible traverse like t18 does- heck yes sign me up!

  7. if the bump it up and drop the T82 with the 105 still on it that be OP aswell But T18 wont be nerfed face it :/

  8. Well, I’m a bit a sealclubber with my pzII, and even for me the T18 is a hard nut to crack. The only glaring weakspot, wich nobody notices, is the uper front plate. Its not that much a weakspot since its heavily angled, and you still need 39pen to get trough, wich most machineguns dont have.

  9. So I heard teamwork and platooned T18s bring up its average WR? Is it OP? Not at all, baddies just need to learn where to shoot. If they are going to change anything then all T1/2 tanks should have the same armor to prevent seal clubbing from happening.

    • It’s OP and your miserable attempt of trolling is dumb and you should feel dumb. And calling people who just started to play this game baddies doesn’t help with your point either. Please tell me how you knew weakspots and how to kill broken tanks when you just started playing.

      • And even earlier with the T34 (and T30, granted, they only did that after nerfing them to hell because “IS-7 STRONK!”). Both times resulted in an absolutely horrible shitstorm that the community does NOT want repeated…but knowing how much SerB enjoys trolling the players, ESPECIALLY the NA server’s players…

  10. All that needs to be done to solve the T 18 problem is telling ppl about it’s gigant weakspot. And it is one of the most unobvious weakspots in the game. T 18′s sloped uper frontal plate(under the superstructure) is penetratable for almost anything! It is only 16 mm thick, angles so it is 30 mm of real armour. Even tier 1s get through it reliably. But most ppl think sloped armour=thick armour and shoot everywhere but not at it.

          • The Tetrarch is blind, good luck spotting a stationary T18 1st with 260 meter view range

              • So… now we have 2 blind tanks sitting in their respective corners of the map with camo net and binocs. I fail to see how this solves anything.

              • And how many new players have Tetrarchs, or 100% crews, or binocs, or camo nets?

                I’m not sure if you’re trolling or just a total dumbass. If you’re trolling, you’re not very good at it; if you’re a dumbass, then please, do us all a favor, uninstall the game and go back to Call of Duty or Battlefield where you belong.

    • Yeah… T18? My Tetrarch eats them for a breakfast :) And no golden-peas sauce needed :)

  11. Why can’t they just give anyone who has 100+ battles in low tier tanks the harshest MM the game allows for? If a T18 statpadder with 1000 battles was always in with tier 3/4 tanks then he would soon stop statpadding.

  12. Bitch please, the best sealclubbing tank is the Luchs. 30hp/ton and you can seal club tanks 4 tiers above you.

    • If Luchs getting into tier 4 match then yes you cant sealclub with it.
      In tier 8 game? no I dont thinks so

      btw the Ultimate Sealclubing tank is still the Pz B2 always being on top
      I once saw a platoon of 3 of em and they really kill off everything

      • I can beg to differ. The ultimate seal clubbing tank is the Panzer II J.

        Since it’s so rare, I doubt you even know what one is, but I’ll sum it up for you:

        Shitty gun on a tier 3 light tank, with better armor than a KV-1. They laugh in the face of T18s that aren’t firing HEAT ammo.

  13. “The vehicle is not a fake if that’s what you mean – it was an evolution step to the M8 Scott HMC. However, there is one significant catch: it was not a tank destroyer, it always was an artillery vehicle (SPG).”

    Are you sure? Because it seems much more of an assault gun than a howitzer. The US doctrine had a very blurred line between the two classes. Whats more they were all called “GMC”.

    But overall, yeah the T18 needs a fix just like theKV1s does.

  14. In case of 1-2 tier tanks this is not rly a good method to estimate if vehicle (and how much) is op. If experienced player with good crew takes any tier 1-2 tank, he will most likely rape, doesn’t matter if the tank is op or not. And why is this problem anyways? Grind tier 1-2 and forget about T18′s rape, you bitch about statpadding op T18′s and you do it yourself just with diffrent vehicle lawl. Not to mention T18 isn’t the only one good tool for sealclubber but somehow you don’t want to change Crusier, Micro Maus, Pz.II or H35. Just don’t play low tiers hipocrits…

    • Just learn what makes tank OP and quit being a smart ass. If H35 is that OP and sealclubbing tank then why we don’t see them as much as often as T18? Why would any sealclubber choose H35 over a T18? Only hypocrite here is you.

    • Cruiser (I assume you mean the Mk.III but I’ll include the Mk.I for the sake of inclusion): Glass cannons with powerful (I would even say overkill in terms of penetration) guns but pretty much no armor whatsoever and only average mobility. They only do well until they get spotted.

      MicroMaus: Very rare and with unforgiving matchmaking. The fact that it’s uncommon means that a nerf isn’t quite as necessary as one can’t get one anymore.

      Panzer II: Pretty big for a tier 2 tank (making it an easier target), average top speed and while a good all-rounder is let down by only having 20 mm cannons as armament options, which are ineffective at any more than around 100 meters against most targets and are almost completely useless against T18s except at point-blank range, and even then there can be problems if a flanking maneuver isn’t possible.

      H35: Good armor and decent gun selection, but limited mobility makes it inflexible to a changing situation. While one can do well individually with one, the lack of mobility can cost one games that they could have won in more mobile tanks. Furthermore, its armor is far less relevant than it used to be due to a combination of shell normalization, premium ammo for credits, and power creep on the guns of newer tanks. Also, like the other French tanks up until tier 5, it usually does poorly when not top tier.

      Compare that to the T18, which only really has three weaknesses: short view range (which can be mitigated easily by the majority of seal clubbers), sluggish traverse (this only matters if you can get close enough to flank them, but doing this is MUCH easier said than done even for the best of players without somebody else distracting it), and lack of a turret (again, this only matters if one gets in position to flank it, and while shooting the tracks helps, it’s not guaranteed to keep it immobile long enough to get around its sides or rear)

  15. When I’m in the mood for low tier games, I mostly use my Tetrarch, which has very good pen. to deal with T18s.
    But yeah, it is a typical seal clubbing tank.

  16. why not nerf all tanks and take us every fun you can have with this game!? T18 OP? How terrible!

    • whats stopping people from having fun in other tanks as well? its not about making T18 or any other tank weak or even making tanks the same….its about each tank having and equal chance of influencing the battle albeit in a different way
      that said T18 has a lot bigger potentional for influencing the battle than other comparable tanks

  17. To be fair i think the best thing to do would be to simply move the T18 to Tier 3, and hell you can move the T82 down to Tier 2 and make the respectable changes if that is possible historically, they both mount the same howitzer at some point so the only difference truthfully would be that armoring, and when it comes to Tier 3 there are plenty of things perfectly capable of penetrating the T18 especially when applying gold ammo, whereas on Tier 2 it indeed remains a problem.

    The problem with the T18 is not it’s armor, or it’s speed or it’s gun, but rather the combination of the three. It’s like having a Waffenträger E 100 with the armor of a JagdPz E 100 and the mobility of an E 75, sure, nothing is invincible, but you’re sure as hell not making it any easier if merely exposing yourself has a high likelyhood of instant death with little opportunity to retaliate.

  18. My opinion? It would be easier to make T82 tier II artillery, and then T57 would be tier II TD, and T18 would go 1 tier higher (It wouldn’t be OP as tier III)

  19. Win Rate of T18 is pretty easy to explain – tier II battles are really unpredictable, and while T18 or few can clear one flank, the other can fall and fail by cap.
    Also – T18 rule against tier I and II (not that it is impenetrable from the front, even 20mm autocannon can make enough holes), but against tier III it is only an another tier II to kill and go on.

  20. Maybe also the 53+ Pen of all the different HE derps [american 105, german 10.5 and soviet 122] is the problem… After all even most T5 and T6 meds can get easily penned by these guns [on T5 even frontally].

    More specifically on the T18: Yes, it can be outmanouvered if you know how to do it. And yes, it can be pened on weekpoints. The problem, as I see it, is the game concept that massively favours higher Alpha (for similar DPM values). Looking over the stats from the Wiki, even all T3s that are not “derping” themselves need at least two average shots to kill the T18, while even the 300+ dmg of the low end of the 105′s range can one shot them. Add to that one or two bounces [or simply low damage hits] and the T18 can even live through a miss on his first shot…

  21. If they happen to nerf it I’ll gladly get some barrel to collect all of those statpadders’ tears. I can already get the taste here, in the comments. It is delicious.

  22. Buy an M2 Light Tank (t2) and just sealclub the T18 farmers… and watch them rage for extra fun.

    I play a bunch of t2-3 tanks for fun (35t, 38t, m2 Light, pz1c for example) and I rarely see experienced players sealclubbing in T18 (too one dimensional, and not very flexible to carry), more like sh*t players or average joes trying to fix their stats.

  23. Knowing how WG work, the T18 will be removed from the game at the same moment as the 122 mm gun from the KV-1S (never)

  24. Again referencing that idiotic way to see if a tank is OP. Remember that’s the same graphs that say foch 155 slightly OP and british AT line is very OP….

    But yeah t18 is OP not that i’m disagreeing.

  25. Do these charts take into account TC battles vs randoms? While I agree kv1s and hellkittie are OP their stats are inflated by TCs. I guess I’ll have to run the T18 with derp. I always used the other gun.

  26. Allow people to link their WoT profiles so we can easily distinguish good and bad players by stats, it helps ignore players who opinion isn’t worth anything when we discuss in-game tank properties.

  27. Forgetting the T18 for a mo, seal clubbers might drive away new players but so does empty low tiers.

    Back to the T18, it is only good for taking advantage of newbies, an experienced player knows to avoid it until he has the upper hand. Funny how they melt to T1 Cunningham auto fire to the sides.

    I am all for replacing it, just to add some variety to low tier battles.

    And 38h735 was just as bad when it had normal mm, premium ammo was for gold only and most tanks it met couldn’t pen it’s rear. No fear of meeting TDs or arty either in those days.

    In fact why not just give T18 special matchmaking so it never meets tier 1 and always faces tier 3. That would kill it’s popularity overnight.

  28. Thanks SS for this article. You made my day with all the sweet tears of miserable pubbies trying to boost their stats with this broken tank crying here how it’s not OP, because it has BAD REVERSE SPEED!!!!

  29. Well the T18 is historicaly correct even with the 75mm OP howitzer, so I would just turn it into a tier 2 premium, it would still be op but all of the low tier premiums are op except for valentine 2

    • I see kinda interesting part in recent battles tho.

      1. Panzerjäger 1 / 53k of recent battles (Most op it seems dont know how tho :D)
      2. T18 / 484k of recent battles
      3. AT-1 / 19k of recent battles
      4. Universal carrier 2-pdr / 18k of recent battles
      5. RenaultFT AC / 13k of recent battles

      As you can see why people would like to see it nerfed. The difference is HUGE between these tier 2 tds. Its armor or speed just needs to go.

  30. I read that there might be an option in the next game patch that will allow users to disable chat. I hope this is the case. I respect the right that all people have to hold and express an opinion. I can even willingly read the comments section of FTR to keep up to date on player attitudes. But having to read the same angsty crap you lot write on here while trying to relax and play a game…a game…a….game…really squeezes my hope for the future of humanity, and it is slowly giving me cancer.

    Most Western nations have provisions in law for the termination of pregnancies in which a major physical or mental deficit is detected. We could have a better world in all the meaningful ways by lobbying to have this standard tightened. I bet there would be a corresponding decrease in the incidence of cancer.

    What do you think?

  31. Noooooooo don’t remove my beloved T18 T^T

    also T18 only has high WR due to the “seemingly invincible” armor when in fact it’s a Tier 2 JagdTiger (if u know what i mean). in fact I DID kill a T18 with a VIC. IT’s actually already nerfed with slow hull traverse (feels like a TD) . Also T57 has stronk armor too for T2. i can still play it rough TD mode even with arty nerf (curse you WG)

    In short, IT’S DOABLE. all you need is a good partner. or course, being the good sealclubber i am (shameless me :P) i wil not tell how i did that, or every single VIC out there will make my fellow T18 drivers “rage hax”

  32. I mean, most of the tanks in wot can be transfered to a “seal clubber” and its pretty simple, just pick a low tier tank and fully equip it and transfer your 4-5 skill crew. How ever, some tanks require more skill do make equall damage and kills. In theory, looking at the playerbase, as long as you have good equipment, consumables (fire, repair, aid) and around 4 crew skills, you will probably have a advantage over the majority of players regardles of tier.

    But yes if a tank is “strong” enough to use no skill and just derp around the corner totally ignoring to angle armor and running in the open bouncing shots like hell 1-2 shotting same tier tanks. Yes that freaking tank is OP. Similar to the kv1s having retardedly high alpha for its tier and trollish armor which is more bouncy than on the tiger II.

    Or why even talk about balacing in the first place, when gold ammo is present and obviously OP autloaders (t57, batchat, wte100) as well as medium tenks (t54, t62, all japanese mediums, etc).

    This retarded problem exist in all tiers. While in higher tiers there are less seal clubbers by defenition, we have platoons with OP tanks spamming gold ammo, so you will face problems there as well.

    • How can you say KV-1s has trollish armor, anything pretty much penetrates it through the hull of the same tier without much aiming effort.

      Also, so what about high alpha, why stand in front of it? I find that for myself, I have no reservations in confronting a T57 – Foch155 – WTe100 – 110e3 – IS7 -FV215183 etc, etc —> why? because, for example, you can’t rage about bouncing a foch when your skill level already is telling you that you should not be standing in front of a loaded FOCH155 and try to trade shots with it, same goes with the 183 or the WTe100.

      I personally find the tank has very little to do with my demise in my own tank than a stupid move on my part which is simply taken advantage of by the other tank. Its human nature to blame anything but your own dumb ass self – which leads me to believe 99% of the oh oh OP whining is all about. WOT would be a very boring game if all tanks were equally good at offense and defense.

      the last game i had (yesterday) I witnessed an Obj140 unicum driver from a unicum clan raging away like crazy about a WTe100 which had ammo raked him… he went on about how all OP it was… what happened to him (i was viewing him as a dead tank btw) he had STOPPED about 300m from a known WTe100 position to his exact 2 o’clock (i’m sure he had the MOD to show last tank position, even then he was a unicum player) and took cover from and E100 and 2 arty’s from his left. He was subsequently shot in the right front ammo rack by 1 shot (he was at 30% health anyways) and ammo racked. … let the rage commence!

      this is what i’m talking about, how about all the arty OP rage… I’ve seen Lowe’s standing still for more than 1 min in the open totally not arty safe get one hit killed by an M43 and start raging away that that should not happen – ever seen pics of WWii tanks getting hit by large HE rounds? not much is even left to recognize the tank after the hit – the driver was a seasoned WOT player too.

      what is the moral? that 99% of all this is that some tank/ or tank driver combination whacked us out of our comfort zone, or from under our pet “rock” or “bush” in the game and we blame the opponent not ourselves for being stupid tactically.

      I see so many varied opinions on what is OP and what is not, that really my first conclusion is that 90% is whining to avoid having to learn to be better tankers and that confronted by a difficult enemy we would rather have the game “fixed” for our own view point than honestly self evaluate before the “OP rage” starts a new.

      • “How can you say KV-1s has trollish armor, anything pretty much penetrates it through the hull of the same tier without much aiming effort.”
        - That isnt entierly true, beeing a tier 6 heavy and having many positive advantages, im safe to say the kv1s had one of the most trollish armor in its tier.

        “Also, so what about high alpha, why stand in front of it? I find that for myself, I have no reservations in confronting a T57 – Foch155 – WTe100 – 110e3 – IS7 -FV215183 etc, etc —> why? because, for example, you can’t rage about bouncing a foch when your skill level already is telling you that you should not be standing in front of a loaded FOCH155 and try to trade shots with it, same goes with the 183 or the WTe100.”
        - Its not about standing infront of it by purpose, any tank can pop up and if you want to make damage you got to engage the enemy. Unless you want to play it save all time and pussying way back. Its not so much the alpha thats the concearn, but the fact that autloader tanks totally mess up the gameplay because as I have mentioned before they can run after you once you back off and clipp you for 10 seconds while you are reloading etc.

        “I personally find the tank has very little to do with my demise in my own tank than a stupid move on my part which is simply taken advantage of by the other tank. Its human nature to blame anything but your own dumb ass self – which leads me to believe 99% of the oh oh OP whining is all about. WOT would be a very boring game if all tanks were equally good at offense and defense.”
        - Not entierly true sice many tanks has a OP curve which is proven. You simply dont have to play smart to perform good. Once again you have to risk it to make damage, unless you will play cowardy and safe. Its not about equally good tanks, but there are huge differances in tank balancing as we have seen for 2 years.

        “the last game i had (yesterday) I witnessed an Obj140 unicum driver from a unicum clan raging away like crazy about a WTe100 which had ammo raked him… he went on about how all OP it was… what happened to him (i was viewing him as a dead tank btw) he had STOPPED about 300m from a known WTe100 position to his exact 2 o’clock (i’m sure he had the MOD to show last tank position, even then he was a unicum player) and took cover from and E100 and 2 arty’s from his left. He was subsequently shot in the right front ammo rack by 1 shot (he was at 30% health anyways) and ammo racked. … let the rage commence! ”
        - The Wte100 is OP and broken, just like the t18, kv1s, and just like the artys were. Nuff said.

        “this is what i’m talking about, how about all the arty OP rage… I’ve seen Lowe’s standing still for more than 1 min in the open totally not arty safe get one hit killed by an M43 and start raging away that that should not happen – ever seen pics of WWii tanks getting hit by large HE rounds? not much is even left to recognize the tank after the hit – the driver was a seasoned WOT player too.”
        - You dont have to stand still to get hit by arty, even now days. Majority of times I have been blasted was when moving. Slow tanks will always be arty magnets though and staying arty save all time isnt fun (which often medium and TD players dont udnerstand because a. mediums are faster and can avoid beeing hit, b. Tds have better camo and get spotted less)

        ” what is the moral? that 99% of all this is that some tank/ or tank driver combination whacked us out of our comfort zone, or from under our pet “rock” or “bush” in the game and we blame the opponent not ourselves for being stupid tactically.”
        - Sure people whine alot, but some tanks in the game are retarded and require less skill to perform good in compared to others. Tell me it takes skill to play a wte100 and clip 6 shots, making 3000+ damage.

        “I see so many varied opinions on what is OP and what is not, that really my first conclusion is that 90% is whining to avoid having to learn to be better tankers and that confronted by a difficult enemy we would rather have the game “fixed” for our own view point than honestly self evaluate before the “OP rage” starts a new.”
        - To some extent yes. Or they live in delusion, just like many ex-arty players right after the artys got nerfed started to complain about TDs and how buffed artys whould balance everything out. Totally bullshit as well in this context. Some people still want to carry on playing their OP wagons, and these are the same that defends the pre 8.6 artys and t57, wte100, 268, foch 155, gold ammo, etc.

        • …. You missed my point. But no worries there ;)
          You’ll get better, just don’t forget to enjoy the game and the challenge.

  33. Something definitely needs to be done about the T18. However, I still believe the T18 could be balanced through tweaking of soft stats. It must be made very uncomfortable to play.

    I feel there is still merit in having well-armored vehicles at tier 2 like the H35 and T18. Can’t solve everything with thin-skinned tanks everywhere, they usually end up having better soft stats that are exploited by experienced players and then we’re back to square one. “b-b-but it doesn’t have any armor so it’s balanced!”

  34. I have a comment/ question on the “new” method:

    Does the player win rate considered the avg for that player, because if you take me for example i have about 16k games played with an avg stat of about 54% but for the last couple of thousand battles my win rate is 60% (yes i sucked as i started the game and no, i don’t like the “re-rol” type of account)…

    So would a tank i drive where i get 60% win rate be compared to my 54% or to my 60% recent win rate??? because it makes all the difference in the world because I am how I am today – not two years ago.

    If the “new” method takes into account only “recent” winrate then I would be inclined to view this method as favorable, if not its statistics at its worst, mathematically speaking – which means misleading conclusions.

    Please SS or Edrard or a MOD to give comment… thank you and great work on the site! Cheers.

  35. If good players should not insult low tiers.. then lower ~50% players should not be able to buy Tier 8 ++ tanks. ;)
    I would welcome this ..

    • but back to topic ;)

      any tank who can oneshot others, is not good for the game.. oneshots are bad for any game..

      As i always say.. when bad players can do massive amount of dmg or kills regular, then a tank is OP to me..

      • 1 shot alpha isnt the only problem. All kind on unbalances are. Take the jagdpz e100 for example, rarely do people complain about it and it has the worst WR of all tier 10 TDs. This is one example that share alpha isnt the problem.

        1 shot capability (high alpha) is not worse than autloaders or fast firing medium tanks. Its all about putting it into perspective. Also gold ammo is the biggest violator, that is game changing by all means. For example, the t18 isnt a worse violator than for example tier 10 mediums with high alpha, good rof and even better penentration than heavys, as well as retardedly gold ammo values (many tier 10 tankers use gold ammo)

  36. The only sensible comments left were by reaver-. If you have half a brain, read -all- of the comments above. That is representative of the WoT player majority; drooling imbeciles that are too busy spraying cheetos as they rage to realise that they are the sole determining factor for measurement of individual performance. Change the circumstances and they are happy to roll over red players, whether they are new or children is anybody’s guess, but f*ck this and f*ck that if mm pits them against competent players that ruin their pet tank.

    Some people won’t use certain tanks because they don’t find them to be visually appealing. Yep :|

  37. Beeing an noob, I don’t see how my third most killed tier 2 tank is anyway overpowered?
    81 of them I’ve killed, 82 Pz II’s and 87 Pz38T’s..
    So it is not hard to kill.

    Only time I’m afraid of T18′s is when there are three of them driven by green/blue/purples. But then again, platoon of three green/blue/purples is always a scary thing for a tomato like me. :D

    • Thats because people still want to perform good in a OP tank, just like ex-arty players right after the arty nerf started to whine about TDs. Its a defence mechanism. Once a favourite tank is nerfed players start messing around about other tanks to get “nerfed”. Similar to the tier 10 heavy nerf in 8.6 where penentration got nerfed a bit, those people were fast to complain about TDs still not getting their pen nerfed. If t18 gets nerfed, be sure that t18 players will start complaining about other tanks to get nerfed.

  38. A lot of the reasons to whine would no longer exist if all the tanks existed and were specced historically. That would not be palatable to the masses however. The current stategy? Rolling nerfs of course.

    The T18 is not a premium. It is not expensive to purchase or maintain. Anybody can own one. To all the whiners that want the game to change just for themselves, please get a T18 and see for yourself whether they are magically op in a way that breaks the game and ruins everybody’s enjoyment of the game. It isn’t and it doesn’t…you just haven’t developed a sense of what is reasonable.

    • Global WR is a “decent” indication of what tanks are OP or not and the T18 is anything but strong and overperforming.

      And the whole argument “get one and try yourself” is exactly what happened with high tier artys prior to patch 8.6, everybody got them and derped around resulting in overpopulated arty games. The same is happening with TDs lately, everybody plays them, not succesfully, but it turns the game to a campfest some times. Too many of a kind is bad for gameplay in randoms, that includes too many heavy and medium tanks as well as autloaders.

      Personly I dont give a shit because I play for doing damage and earn XP and I can do that regardles of enemy tanks. How ever too many of a kind affects the majority of team which will make the “enjoyment” worse, like campfests.

  39. Pingback: Straight outta Supertest: New tank icons | For The Record

  40. In every tier a light tank will find opponents whom it has difficulty penetrating. The T18 has glaring weak spots for and aft, if a tank is carrying the weakest guns in the game it may still have difficulty yet…… thats the game.

    yes, I do run the T18, but my favorite low tier tank was the humble Cunningham till I found it nigh impossible to play against the mobs of T7′s. Players frustrated by the gift tanks get a free garage slot where they can park their favorite replacement.

  41. The t18 has the worst view range possible!
    It OP because of the ” light VIc” and “T7 combat cars” that WG gave out! (i love my t7 BTW ) even the spall-liner does hot help against 75mm cannon.