About the German tier 8 premium medium tank

Hello everyone,

so, many of you were no doubt surprised by Storm’s announcement. That’s right, German tier 8 premium medium tank is coming! What can it be? Well, let’s have some speculations, shall we?

Let’s start with what will it NOT be. There are two obvious candidates for German slots, both of foreign origin. First is the M47 Patton II. Basically, it early/mid 50′s, the Bundeswehr (West-German army) was looking for its new battle tank. One of the early ideas was to restart the production of modernized Panther tank, but that idea lost to the purchase of American M47 Patton tanks. These tanks served from mid-50′s until 1965, when they were replaced by the Leopard tank. Their 90mm guns (M36) were then re-used for the construction of the Kanonenjagdpanzer tank destroyer vehicles.


Well, I think the reason this won’t appear as a medium tank is quite obvious. For starters, it’s not a German tank. When you look at the premium tanks in general, introducing foreign tanks as premiums is not that common and certainly not a trend. Foreign premiums can be divided into:

- very early tank models of tanks that actually fought in the war (and thus are significant), like the Soviet Valentine, Soviet Churchill and such
- tanks that are tied to the nation in various way, including development (American Ram for example)
- tanks, that were “renationalized” out of complete necessity, because there was no better local candidate (French Marder I aka “FCM” TD, French LeFH arty)

The M47 falls into neither of these categories. There is also the matter of it being overpowered for a tier 8 premium, which is (gameplay-wise) supposed to be worse than an actual tier 8 tank. I am quite certain the M47 doesn’t fit.

Another tank sometimes brought up is the East-German T-54/T-55. Again, absolutely the same applies: too overpowered for the spot and what would be even worse: it would be another T-54 clone, I think we really have enough of those (especially given the fact that another one is coming as the Soviet premium tier 8 vehicle).

German Tanks

Alright, what is left? Well, not much. There is the Leopard Prototyp der Arbeitsgruppe B (Leopard Proto B).


Leopard prototype B is the unsuccessful project, created by the Leopard developer “Group B”, consisting of Ruhrstahl, Hanomag and Henschel. It’s not very different from the tier 9 vehicle in the game (both were made according to the same specifications), so you can imagine it would be quite overpowered for a tier 8 premium position. With good mobility and a relatively powerful gun, its introduction as a tier 8 medium tank is unlikely.

So, what’s left. The Panthers.

First, the “historical” Panther II. I say “historical” ironically, because it’s not exactly a historical version either. As you probably know, Panther II project was discontinued quite early on. One of the reasons of its existence was its stronger side armor, capable of resisting anti-tank rifles, that were used on the eastern front in huge numbers, because they were issued en-masse to infantry units. These rifles were capable not only of penetrating the vulnerable side armor of Panzer III and IV hulls, but also of Panther tanks, leading to the development of means to fight them. One of these means was the Panther II, but since the German engineers discovered that this issue can be solved (much cheaper) by installing the Schurzen side plates (these are meant to fight AT rifles, NOT HEAT shells), the project lost its significance and was cancelled. One hull was made (without a turret) and it was captured by the Americans, moved to Aberdeen and fitted with a Panther I Ausf.G turret they had. Ironically, this setup is even more historical than the Schmalturm Panther II, because Schmalturm came much later, but nevertheless, it’s unhistorical.


The problem with this vehicle is that apart from additional protection, it has no real advantage over tier 7 Panther I with the L/70 gun. It’s bad. Simple 75mm L/70 can’t do much on tier 8. A solution would be to fit it with an autoloader, historically planned for Panther, but that again came much later and would be again completely unhistorical.

Now, I came up with only two more ideas of what it could be, one is much more likely than the other (even though not as cool). The cool variant would be the turbine Panther. Here’s how it would look (based on a model kit, the left one is with the 1150hp GT-102 turbine, the right one with the GT-101 turbine):


I wrote it in much more detail here. Now, what would we have here would be an ultra-fast Panther with a turbine engine, which would compensate for the (weaker) L/70 gun performance. The gun however could be autoloaded. I do not think this will appear in the game for various reasons however (although it would be really awesome):

- turbine sound: it would have to be implemented specifically for this vehicle
- insane power-to-weight ratio for a medium tank
- relatively weak performance of the L/70 gun

No. What I think will appear in the game… is this.


This is Panther I Ausf.F with Schmalturm and 88mm L/71 gun. It was a late war project, that was never completed, but it is historical nevertheless. I wrote about Panther F here. To quote myself:

Furthermore, in January 1945, a Schmalturm for Panther with KwK 43 (88mm L/71) was proposed by Daimler Benz. The first drawing of the DB turret actually comes from 18.10.1944 and based on that, DB recieved a contract to develop this variant and it was in January they presented the results. It was to have a -8/+15 elevation and depression and was to be equipped with SFZ2 or SFZ3 stabilized gunsights. And all that while the whole thing weighted only a ton more than the current Panther turret. However, the work on that never got beyond wooden mockup, that was found in the DB plant after the war.

The parameters of Panther Ausf.F are well known. It was armored just as much as Panther I Ausf.G (80mm frontal plate, 50mm lower frontal plate, 40-50mm sides) with Schmalturm mounted on it (150mm mantlet, 120mm turret front, 60mm turret sides and 60mm turret rear), while basically keeping the weight. It was to be powered by a 700hp Maybach HL230 P30 engine and its maximum speed was 46 km/h.

This is basically the best candidate I’ve been able to come up with and I doubt there is any better candidate for the position out there. Its main problem is that it is simply a Panther clone and we already have that, but considering the amount of various other clones (T-54), I guess Wargaming would be willing to make that sacrifice. Personally, I would prefer something cooler, but… yea.

100 thoughts on “About the German tier 8 premium medium tank

  1. Do we need more german premium med ? Pzm10, pz4s t25 s35 pz4h, and just 2 line med

      • Not premium, as it was acutally used by various nations it could be a researchable vehicle.

    • What about those modernized Panther tanks the Bunderswehr considered in the early 50s?
      Didnt they have 90mm guns installed?
      I think that they would bee good canditates
      Sry if im wrong but i cant find the article anymore…

      • That’s what I was thinking ss was leading to, the Panther IF just looks like a Panther II to me, except slower and less armoured.

      • It never went beyond giving a loan to Krupp to set up the works for possible manufacture of WW2-era Panthers, which was supposed to be expanded to a modernized version (which wasn’t even designed).

        Basically, it has less basis for it than a Sturmjagdpanther.

    • Yep, You are right, we have many German Meds already.
      My sole objection c o u l d been: but not a tier VIII …
      Personally I’am anxious what we’ll get however.

  2. But wouldnt that be very similar with the current panther 2?

    Cuz I don’t think the dev would like to implement a prem tank very similar to some existing vehicles ingame

  3. The Aus.F sounds good, the 88 L/71 is great in game for tier 7 and decent for tier 8, although I’d have some concerns about its low speed agility it sounds like a very fun and well balanced historical tank that would print credits.

  4. Since I’m a huge fan of the panthers (and I actually built a model kit of the Panther F in 1:35 scale) – Why not? Schmalturm Panthers look cool anyway.

    • Well here we disagree. I don’t find panthers with schmalturms pretty, the stock panther looks amazing, the schmalturm looks weird. However, Panther II looks even weirder to me than panther I with schmal, so a normal schmalturm panther with L/71 would look cool I guess, mainly because of the badass gun.

      • everyone agree to disagree.

        I am for one found panther /w Schmalturm is sexy, though with 75mml100 it does look ridiculous. But panther II with 88mm looks neat.

  5. so, many of you were no doubt surprised by Storm’s announcement. That’s right, German tier 8 premium medium tank is coming! What can it be? Well, let’s have some speculations, shall we?

    Nope, because 1 or 2 months ago you already translated a comment by minsk that they had a tier 8 german premium candidate.

  6. What about the modernized Panther they were thinking about building? How far did those plans get, would that not be a good T8 medium?

    I’m assuming it got an improved gun and a better engine / transmission?

      • From everything I could gather this project never actually existed.

        Remember, Leopard development (requirements) started in 1956. From what I see most “info” about upgraded Panthers is simply German press reports, from the late 50s early 60s, stating that the new Bundeswehr tank would be an upgraded Panther (or “based on the WW2 Panther”).

        • It did exist as a plan, it’s mentioned in various publications as well. However, whether a real upgraded panther project existed, that’s another matter.

    • you have got the tier 4 for seal gold clubbing and tier 8 for money making. Now give me an american premium TD first, I’d like to have such a choice…

      • There is only a T8 for sale, which is not really all that great for training new crews. And yes, an American TD would be nice, too.

  7. So basically just re-introduce the old Panther before it was moved down a tier and the Panther II took its place and the 88mm L71 was removed?

    I think I would prefer a different German Tier 8, I am pretty sure WG has something in their mind, something crazy.

  8. I personally would prefer a Turbopanther with autoloaded short (L56) 8,8 cm gun, which packs quite a punch but has very small pen-rating, but with a Turbopanther you can outflank pretty fast..

    + outstanding mobility (Top Speed 55, bad-ass Acceleration)
    + Autoloaded Gun with high potential DMG-Output

    - Weak Armour, especially on T8 (!)
    - Baaad Penetration, so not a good sniper
    - bad Viewrange cause its a premium
    - other Premium nerf

    I would buy it!..

    PS: If anyone asks: Why a new German Premium? Because i think German Tank sell excellent :)

  9. In one of his books Walter J. Spielberger (Hilary L. Doyle assisted him writing it) wrote that the Auto-Loader for the 7.5cm gun in the Panther would be capable of loading 40 rounds in one minute.
    I believe there was a existing test auto-loader, but I’m not sure.
    The engineers later stated that it’s not good for the gun to fire faster than 20r/min, unless in emergency.

  10. I for one would go for the crazy variant and propose the SturmPanther (15cm STUH 43 in Panther’s turret) as tier VIII medium.

    It would basically be a mobile KV-2, pretty dangerous.

    • There is the Borsig, and ISU, I doubt we need more 150 mm competitors on tier 8. And it would be the biggest gunned premium in game. And you want to give it mobility and a turret. Sounds OP to me…
      And isn’t SturmPanther reserved for one of the German TD lines?

      • AFAIK no, Sturmpanther doesn’t fit the line.
        Plus we’re talking about a derp gun so it’s not exactly in the same class as tier VIII TDs…

      • You do know that we’re talking about a derp gun, like the one mounted ob the KV-2, not an anti-tank gun like the BL-10.

        • KV-2 has 152mm gun on T6 and isn’t OP. Well in certain MM setup it kind of is, but that’s not the point. Derps=/=high caliber TD guns

  11. A premium Panther would be great.
    By the way what are the candidates for the american premium TD? Did you write about it earlier,if yes could you copy it’s link please?

  12. I would love to get my hands on that Leopard PTB. Would buy that in a heart beat. Please WG make it happen! :3

    Also I’d love to read on article about the Leopard and all of its’ early prototypes. I have tried to search the net to see where that turret (PTA’s elite turret “standardpanzer”) came from, but I haven’t had any luck yet.

  13. If I’d have to buy a tier 8 premium medium and Panther Ausf F would be the german candidate, I wouldn’t save money for it… Even T-34-3 offers more diversity when compared to the chinese med branch.

    On the other hand, Leo PT. B seems like a much better candidate. Imagine stock Leo PT A with worse mobility and you have a tier 8 premium. Or even better: Leo PT B (regular tier 8) and Indien Pz. moved to the premium slot.

  14. Actually, I think that the M47 *could* easily be made to fit as a tier 8 premium tank.

    1300 HP
    90mm M36 Gun 172/262/45 pen 240/240/320 damage @ 6.5 rounds per minute
    380m view range
    44.1 tons, 810 HP = 18.4 HP/ton (balanced by bad terrain passability)

    Other stats balanced as needed.

    And for the Leo PT B as a tier 8 premium:
    Same general idea, lowish HP, give it the 9cm KwK 54 with bad RoF, say 5.8 rounds per minute (as the gun has 212 ap pen).

    WG can do alot ot balance a current tier 9 tank as a tier 8 premium.

  15. “One of the early ideas was to restart the production of modernized Panther tank, but that idea lost to the purchase of American M47 Patton tanks.” – do anybody know about that “modernized Panther” ?? If it have ever reached even blueprint stage, that could be viable

    • It was just a proposal although it sounded like a serious idea back in the very early 1950′s and money was allotted for modernizing a Krupp plant for production before the Leopold concept came out in 1956. But something occurred and the idea was scrapped.

      The 1946-1960 history of armored vehicles in Germany is very confusing.

  16. I don’t see the problem with the Leopard Prot B.
    No armor, no gun depression and module damage problems with a good gun and mobility. Also, after the Type 59, I doubt there is any problem of introducing premium tanks that out perform the standard tanks. Even the Lowe is better than the King Tiger now.

  17. Also to clarify on the Panther I Asuf. F the hull did in fact make it to the production line in the last few months of the war. As there is photographic evidence of Panther I Asuf. F hull’s on the production line alongside the Asuf. G hulls.

    But it is not known how many, if any, hull’s were completed and in turn were completed into active tanks due to the very limited window in which it could have happened before the end of the war.

    Source: Germany’s Panther Tank: The Quest for Combat Supremacy by Thomas L. Jentz, Hilary L. Doyle.

  18. No need for a tier 8 med when we already have the Panther/M10. All they need to do is buff the M10 a bit, because its now worse than a completely stock tier 7 Panther – and prem tanks should be somewhere between stock and elite.

    Maybe then they will sell more than 5 a year.

  19. So maybe i missed something in this post or in one reply but why is noone mentioning the RU 251 as a candidate for a premium med tier 8 ? It is a tank on hold for some time now. Taking the spot after the tier 7 aufkl. Panther and not being part of any upcomming new german tank tech tree make that introduction plausible like the taiwan type 64.
    I would buy it.
    Your thoughts ?

    • Because all research into the RU 251 has not shed any extra info on it. Thus it is, for now, a dead end.There is just not enough information for WG on it. Lets just say they learned somewhat form the WT E-100 hack job and are more conservative now.

  20. That would be a great Premium, “Panther F mit 88/L71″. Ive been wanting a different german Panther for a while. A premium with 240 damage would be nice. I haven’t bought the current Erstaz model specifically because of the damage output of the gun.

    Call it balancing, historical accuracy, Serbs German anything hate, whatever, I don’t want a tank at Tier 7 that puts out 135 damage.

    Obviously Im not alone……how many Panthers do you see?

    Its a shame the Germans are done this way. Most Game Companies maximize the German/ Historical Honey Pot.

    When the E75/ e100 finally got a buff, all I hear from WG is their totally unrealistic……Yea, but a KV 1s dominating Tier 6 and the Medium Tank Companies is just a co incidence, lmao. Very convienient and totally coincidental though, rightttttttttttttttttttttt.

    Im told the original German Panther had this exact set up? It would be a great Premium and would make WG a nice profit this yr.

    Another would be a Captured KV1 at tier 5, wouldn’t a grey Kv1 be awesome……..

    • Since most of the players are Russian in WoT they are using all the Honey Pot techniques they can with Russian tanks. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is good business sense.

      • Nope, its a business. WG is hear to sell a Product. I’ve spent considerable amounts of money and do not regret a dime of it. 07

        At the end of the day, I would rather have WoT, then not have it at all.

        My German points are more desires an just opinions. But I do not like hearing and will always argue about the Positive/ under portrayed German Armor models.

        Roll OuT!

    • Yea, that’s a badass image. I would buy that today for an E100 crew trainer. With the F30, fo sho….

  21. at first i read “schlampe” written on the ufp of the patton

  22. I miss my tier 8 Panther, I could totally get behind it as a premium. For some reason the Panther II just doesn’t feel the same.

    • I just bought the Panther 2 today (On sale) its a great tank the 88 is a fantastic gun

  23. I don’t see how a prototype leopard would be unbalanced. With proper hps, reload speed, it would be fine and I’d buy it. Turbo panther concept looks nice too. Special MM only though.

  24. Isn’t the panther ausf F just a completely inferior Panther II? I mean premium tanks are suppose to be weaker, but not completely weaker. Usually there is another trait that somewhat compensates its weakness.

    • Panther II was developed to create a better panther then what was originally in production because of some short comings and technical limitations with the original Panther. But solutions were found and the Panther II was dropped but not before the interchangeable parts requirements with the Tiger II program slowed the Tiger II program down by 4-6 months.

      Technically Panther G and F are both better then Panther II.

  25. I’m still waiting for the Captured German KV-1 and Captured German T-34 that were supposed to come long LONG ago, any idea when they will arrive? You had mentioned the Captured German KV-1 in quite a few of the more recent posts. Also when are the Grosstraktor and Neubaufahrzeug come into the game? I will buy them ALL as soon as they are released so the quicker WoT puts them in the quicker they get my money :)

  26. One more possibility, but its a long shot…

    Seeing the availability of “paper tanks” it doesn’t seem impossible for the Kleine Tiger to be a contender. I dont think this ever went beyond a planing stage and no plans were drawn up.

    Have read it was supposed to be a “33 ton lightweight Tiger II”. Estimates I have seen say it would have been well above 33 tons and probably closer to 40+ tons.

    • The lightest possible “Tiger” minus turret and most of its armor (think very thin hull”) when used in designs as a heavy lift transporter type vehicle weighed approximately 25 tons. And yes such a Tiger was roughly designed for some special work. As was a Tiger II variant.

      “Kleine Tiger” is a complete joke of a tank. It was beat to hell months ago by SS and others yet still floats around the net.

  27. your “Panther I Ausf.F with Schmalturm and 88mm L/71 gun”

    is the exact same panther when it was tier 9 some years ago ( it was en agony to grind )

    • That was the tier 8 version with the long 88. The tier 9 was the Panther II which had the same 10.5 top gun as the E-50 has now.

  28. Of course they could just go with the ‘modernized Panther’ concept that was turned down in favor of the M47 Patton II, though it would mean that there would have to be a LOT of extrapolation as to what the vehicle might have been like.