German Fantasies for the Führer

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Source: http://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/2924387.html

Hello everyone,

Yuri Pasholok published today a very interesting piece of document. It’s a captured (and translated) version of a memo for Adolf Hitler from 7.4.1944 (looking at the dating, it was in Soviet hands 10 days later – Soviet recon was quite competent), regarding the development of German armored vehicles.

367594_original

The relevant parts:

Inspector-General of the tank armies requested following improvements of armored vehicles:

a) superheavy anti-tank gun 15cm L/63 and 17cm L/53 (penetration 200mm at 4000m, shell weight 72kg for 17cm, 45kg for 15cm)
b) 210mm self-propelled assault tank on Panther chassis
c) modernizing Panzer IV, specifically sloped armor, more powerful engine (Autumn 1945), 75mm L/70 tank gun

Furthermore, salvaged Panzer III tanks were not to be scrapped or rebuilt to SPG (StuG). Instead, vehicles, being repaired behind the front lines (240 pieces) should be rebuilt as ARV (recovery tanks). There are difficulties in uparmoring the 50mm front of the StuG to 80mm.

Here, Yuri Pasholok states that the two superheavy guns are the same guns, proposed for the Sturmgeschütz E-100 (in game Jpz E-100) and Sturmgeschütz Maus. As for the modernized Panzer IV, Yuri Pasholok states that there are basically two variants as to what it could have been.

First is the Schmalturm on a hull, resembling someting like 9/B.W.

367745_original

The other is the attempt to put Schmalturm on Panzer III/IV

367978_original

The second variant is obviously pretty outlandish and I at first thought it’s some sort of trolling, but allegedly, the turret would fit, because the Schmalturm would in size replace the Panzer IV turret and that the chassis of III/IV was built to withstand greater weight (the suspension was more resilient) – this is why Panzer III and IV development stopped at one point, the chassis reached its limits. As for the engine, it would fit, but the hull crew would have it significantly more difficult getting in…

52 thoughts on “German Fantasies for the Führer”

  1. Wouldn’t mind seeing these proposals added into the game :)

    After they add French Heavies, the Firefly, Lend-lease vehicles and Russian tanks captured and modified by the Germans :) (I’m itching to drive a Pz.kpfw KV-1 756(r)….)

  2. Hahahaa

    SO now we CAN have a JagdMaus with a 15 cm L63! The JagdPanzer will keep its 17cm, the JagdMaus will be different gameplay-wise now!

    *Maniacal laughter!*

      • Better for sidescraping, better sniper, better DPM (probably), more HP, tougher Weak spots, better angling…

        I see it as unique tank. Besides, Maus does have more armour then E-100 even if BOTH are driven well :)

          • Of coarse… we are talking about the hulls of a Maus and E-100…
            One is on Maus, the other on E-100.
            We have the E-100 TD in game, but not the Maus TD. E-100 TD can use tricks similar to those of the heavy, just not as effective due to a lack of turret. So Maus TD, which we dont know how will look, will be similar to that comparison…
            Jeez…

            • Alexander, what you’re looking for is the STUG E-75, reconstructed by Silentstalker and me some time ago.

              • Well:
                I wanted the JPZ E-100. It is in game.
                I want a E-75 TD, that would play like a tier 10 JagdTiger.
                I also want the JagdMaus . I am 100% certain it will play differently then the E-100 TD. Definitly a bigger difference then the Obj 140/ 430/ T-62A we have in game. * Gameplay Wise at least*

                So yeah. I am ALL for the E-75 TD and JagdMaus !
                Also read the articles. All of them :)

  3. Pz III/IV Schmalturm as t6 prem?

    Lower RoF and overall HP than the Pz IV version but far better mobillity.

  5. Somehow it seems… weird.
    I’m going to double check sources tonight as this document seems to contradict a lot of stuff from Spielberger, Jentz & Doyle.

    Could be a german -> russian translation error.

    • Hey Zarax,

      I already checked Spielberger and Doyle. (Panzer IV und seine abarten and Panzer Tracts 20-1)
      The Pz III/IV with Schmal+L/70 is completely bullshit and the modernised Pz IV with Schmal+L/70 is probably a translation error.

      I’ve already send Silentstalker an email about it, if you want the email as well, mind dropping me your email address?

      Regards,
      Bronezhilet

      • They did try to make a slopped IV with 100mm or 80mm and found it effected mobility to much on an already over strained suspension.

        And they did look at putting the Schmalturm on an IV, so while the concept of having both of them together is probably an april fools joke you can imagine a world where the first concept worked with the sloped armor they would have tried the second as well.

        The IV Hydro actually had plans it seems to be built with a sloped front. (probably 50mm sloped)

        http://i.imgur.com/j8RnzXW.jpg

        • That is correct according to page 268 in “Panzer IV und seine Abarten” by Spielberger.
          Page 268 states:
          9) Abschrägung der Bugplatte war nun möglich.
          Which is translatorinated into:
          9) Sloping of the nose plate is now possible.

          Edit:
          The moderisation project of the Pz IV to slope the front was initiated in December 1942, the check of the schmalturm fitted on the Pz IV was done in April 1944. I think they are too far apart to be related. Also, “Panzer IV und seine Abarten” states on page 266 “einen modernisierten Pz.Kpfw.IV mit 7,5 cm L/70 Kw.K zu entwickeln”, which is an order to develop a (new) modernisation project of the Pz IV with a 7,5 cm L/70, not a continuation of the old modernisation project.

          • Ehh… Schmalturm my arse. I would be happy if Panzer IV K (Krupp Proposal for PzIV Ausf.H) would make it to game as an alternative hull for current Panzer IV H. I wonder is that actually considered…

            • So you’re saying you know German tank history better than the most respected researchers (Spielberger, Doyle, etc)?

              Right.

  6. The project of the 21mm mortar/gun is actually quite interesting, there are some drawings (Hilary L. Doyle again).
    Another thing that is interesting is the fact that (one) Tiger (P) actually existed. It was used as a comanding tank in Italy 1944. It had the Tiger turret, the 8.8cm L/56 and 200mm frontal armor. So the Tiger (P) we have ingame is not that unhistorical.
    The company which used the Tiger (p) had another unusual vehicle. It was a Panther hull (I think model D or later) with the turret of a Pz.IV (7.5cm L/48). I wonder if we will ever see it ingame. It was also used as a comanding tank.
    I tried to draw it, but I’m not sure if I’m alloud to post the link here.

    • …there were five of them, Porsche Tigers.

      But 200mm armor had only #003 from Pz.Jg.Abt.653.
      He saw battle on Galichina on Ukraine. V/IV too.
      They were there on 20 july 1943 (or 44? i arent sure on year, i wonder why).
      And then came 22 july, and they were no more. Soviets hadn’t even noticed them.

      • Why, you’d ask?

        In those areas drove FOUR soviet armies. Two tank armies, with three IS-1 platoons and one KV-1S platoon.
        17 july – one Elefant knocked two KV-1S.
        18 july – and the hell broke loose.

        From 33 Elefants was left only 13.
        And no more bergetigers(P). no more Porsche Tiger #003, no more Flakpanzer T-34, no more bergepanther with Pz.IV turret.

        T’is a shame, i really wish that someone’d find Tiger(P) in some swamp…

      • It was ’44, people have a tendency to think the Tiger P fought at Kursk for some reason

    • ” 21mm mortar/gun is actually quite interesting, there are some drawings”

      Not that I am aware of (and I believe I have pretty much everything H.Doyle, T.Jentz or W.Spielberger wrote on that matter.

  9. Since normal Pz IV gonna get side skirt, why not change the Pz IV S to Pz III/IV S instead parameter should be around normal tier V Pz IV due to added weight of the turret and there you go a new tank with little to no balance issue (which may be it will, due to slight buff due to armor sloping of III/IV)