Hungarian armor part 1 – 44M Tas and Tas Rohamlöveg

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Today, we are going to have a look at some of the interesting Hungarian armor pieces. Obviously, it would be logical to start with the Turán, or the Toldi tanks, but are a bit boring :) We’ll get to them at some point later.

Hungarian branch will most likely be a part of the European tank tree, as the Toldi and Turán tanks were one of the few EU-nations tanks that have actually seen combat (although with mixed results). Hungarian tank history is quite interesting (again, I’ll get to that in some other article), but roughly it can be said that despite the attempts to build a decent tank force in WW2, Hungarian tanks and assault guns (based mostly on the Czechovak and Swedish designs, mixed with some imported German Panzer III and IV’s) were obsolete by the time they arrived to the Hungarian army (Honvédség). Despite the Hungarian attempts to bring the vehicles up to date (at some point blocked by Germans), a combination of obsolete vehicles and bad supply lines let to the massive destruction of Hungarian armor on Russian river Don – a defeat the army never really recovered from. Hungarian army however knew full well that their vehicles are not up to date and tried (sometimes desperately) to do something with it.

Hungarian armor in World of Tanks

Hungary can basically build a branch up to tier 7 (if we combine the TD and light/medium tank branches). It would look something like this:

T1 – Straussler tanks
T2 – Toldi I/II light tank
T3 – Toldi III light tank
T4 – T-21/Turán I medium tank
T5 – Turán II/III medium tank, Zrinyi I/II
T6 – ????
T7 – 44M Tas, Tas Rohamlöveg

And that’s it I am afraid. I haven’t found any tank project for tier 8+ – that of course doesn’t mean they didn’t exist, but it’s practically impossible to find any data on anything else outside of Hungary, so I hope Wargaming will do some serious research.

44M Tas

By 1943 two things were clear to everyone, except possibly the biggest optimists: the first one was that the Germans are in deep trouble in Russia – and the second one was that Hungarian armor is no longer capable of taking care of the newest Soviet tanks, appearing en masse on the battlefields of Russia. Especially the swarms of T-34 tanks plagued the tired Hungarian tankers, who tried to hold them off with their 40mm equipped Turáns (that alone was quite a feat by itself).

In May 1943, a German delegation led by general Leeb did visit Hungary, to inspect the state of Hungarian armor development and to share some knowledge, gained from the fighting. The result was a joint project offer from the Germans to work on certain vehicles. In German eyes, Hungary would manufacture and supply certain parts, which would then be assembled in Germany and exported back to Hungary. Needless to say, Hungarian officers were not very happy about this – from an independent nation, Hungary would become totally dependent on German supplies (and will), when it came to armor. That was unacceptable for two reasons: one was bad experiences with German cooperation (Turán production was delayed several times in the past due to shortages of German equipment), second was that with such a program, Hungary would effectively become Germany’s vassal state. Hungarians scrapped this idea immediately.

Earlier that year (in April 1943), Hungarian committee, led by colonel Nádas, visited Germany and inspected some of the armor factories. They witnessed the Panther and Tiger production and were impressed. However, by that time, the mass production of Tigers and Panthers was effectively just started, the vehicles suffered from several flaws (which were rectified only later) and it was also clear that Hungarian armor industry is in no shape to license-produce Panthers or Tigers, those tanks were simply way too sophisticated. Another idea of the committee was to actually license-produce the Panzer IV (with which the Hungarian crews were relatively happy). This too was turned down, because the army staff argued that Panzer IV is not THAT much better than Hungary’s current tanks and it’s simply not worth doing.

These endless talks led the army to commission the development of an entirely new and locally built heavy tank from Hungarian components. It was named “Tas” (possibly after a Hungarian warlord from 9th century) and designed in cooperation with the Weiss Manfréd company, that was also supposed to be responsible for its production. It was loosely based on the Turán construction and on the paper, it was actually pretty good. Massive welded frontal armor (100-120mm sloped) paired with a powerful gun (75mm KwK L/70) made a powerful combination. Two types of guns were actually planned: the original German-built KwK 42 from Panther and a Hungarian developed 43M 75mm gun. The vehicle was propelled by two 260hp Turán engines and manned by a crew of five (resembling the Panther).

Tas was introduced to the Honvédség command staff on 30.7.1943, with August reserved for partial improvements. The army approved the building of two prototypes – one made from classical (non-armor) steel and one completely armored. The mild steel prototype was built first in the first half of 1944 in the Weiss Manfréd company, but it was never finished. Allegedly, the hull was ready with transmission and engine installed and the project was waiting for a turret, when the factory was bombed on 27.7.1944 by Americans. The prototype was completely destroyed. The development was moved to the Ganz factory, where the already manufactured parts were redirected to. It is unknown what happened from July to December with these parts, but in December 1944, all development and manufacture in the factory was stopped – and that was the end of the project, which was not pursued further.

Characteristics:

(in the brackets: Panther D statistics for comparison)
Crew: 5 (5)
Weight: 38 tons (44,8)
Lenght: 9,2 meters (8,66)
Width: 3,5 meters (3,27)
Height: 3 meters (2,99)
Engine: 2x Turán, 520hp in total (HL230, 700hp)
Armor
Frontal: 100-120mm (80)
Sides: 50mm (40)
Turret frontal: 100mm (100)
Turret sides: 100mm (45)
Turret rear: 50mm (45)
Armament: 75mm KwK 42 or 75mm 43M (the same)
Speed: 45km/h (55km/h)

In World of Tanks

44M Tas is tier 7 material. Although classified as a “heavy” tank, it is lighter than the medium Panther and definitely nowhere near as heavy as the Tiger. As you can see, it is more heavily armored than the Panther, but lacks its sophisticated weaponry and most likely optics too. What we have here is a medium/heavy hybrid. While its firepower would be quite low for tier 7 (150mm pen, unless it gets some unhistorical gun), the nicely angled armor would allow it to actually hold its own. The engines are a problem, but historically, Hungarians negotiated with Germans over purchasing the HL230 700hp Panther D engines. With 700hp, this 38 ton vehicle would have a decent mobility, compensating for the gun. I can see it working, possibly as a brawler.

Tas Rohamlöveg

Tas Röhamloveg was a tank destroyer project, developed along with the 44M Tas tank, based on the same chassis. It was started in 1944, when some of the officers involved in the 44M Tas design came up with an idea that it wouldn’t be actually bad to start a project of a heavy tank destroyer along with the tank development. They were influenced no doubt by the successes of such German vehicles, that were not only extremely deadly, but also cheaper to build than regular tanks. Their silhouette was also lower, they were harder to spot, easier to set an ambush with and generally suitable for the defensive warfare both the German and Hungarian armies found themselves in.

The project was (not very originally) named Tas Rohamlöveg (“Tas assault gun”). The turret was removed from the design and the (very low) chassis was built to somewhat resemble the dreaded Jagdpanther. While the lower frontal plate (usually covered by terrain) was 20mm, the massive frontal plate was 120mm thick and very well angled. The vehicle was planned with the German 88mm KwK 43 L/71, capable to knock out any allied tank – and two machineguns.

Just like the tank, this vehicle was supposed to be built by Weiss Manfréd. Two prototypes were ordered, but beyond that, little is known of the project. Some sources say that some parts were ordered and even manufactured, but no prototype was ever built due to the same air raid, that knocked out the Tas production.

Characteristics:

(in the brackets: Jagdpanther statistics for comparison)
Crew: 5 (5)
Weight: 38 tons (45,5)
Lenght: 9,5 meters (9,87)
Width: 3,9 meters (3,8)
Height: 2,3 meters (2,72)
Engine: 2x Turán, 520hp in total (HL230, 700hp)
Armor
Frontal: 120mm (80)
Sides: 50mm (50)
Armament: 88mm PaK 43 (the same)
Speed: 45km/h (55km/h)

In World of Tanks

As you can see, it’s much like the Jagdpanther, but lower, sleeker, apparently with better camo factor, possibly more agile (lighter) with the same engine, but with the original 520hp you can’t expect miracles. The drawback would be the missing 105mm gun and thus somewhat lower firepower. Still, considering how cool it looks… I’d play it even if it was worse in all respects :)

Sources:
I.Pejčoch – Obrněná technika
C.Kliment, D.Barnád – Maďarská armáda 1919-1945
www.valka.cz

41 thoughts on “Hungarian armor part 1 – 44M Tas and Tas Rohamlöveg”

  1. Silent Stalker, do you have numbers on the armor values for the different models of Turán, Zrinyi, and Toldi? As it stands, I can stretch the tanks and TDs out to Tier 7, but data on armor values, especially among the different models, tends to conflict.

    • Well, the sources I use state that while Turán I and II had the same armor (frontal 50mm, sides 25mm) while the Turán III had it increased to 95mm hull and 75mm frontal turret, sides stayed 25mm, but the Turán III turret sides were 35mm thick.

      • Interesting. The only vehicle I’m missing for the Hungarians (aside from the obvious Tiers 8+) is a Tier 2 TD.

        T1: Straussler V4 (the V3 wasn’t armed with a cannon, only a machine gun IIRC)
        T2: Toldi I
        T3: Toldi II, 40M Nimród
        T4: Toldi III, 40M Turán I, Toldi “Marder”
        T5: 41M Turán II, 43M Zrinyi II
        T6: 43M Turán III, 44M Zrinyi I
        T7: 44M Tas, Tas Röhamloveg

        Granted, that’s stretching the vehicles as much as possible, but it is doable.

        • Turán III on tier 6? That thing has 25mm side armor. Even 75mm guns will overmatch it (=instant penetration no matter how you angle it, plus full HE damage from 105mm HE shells and other “joys”). The gun is also mediocre for its tier, mobility was also not too good.

          • Like I said, that’s with stretching things. Ideally, the Turán I and II become one Tier 4 vehicle and the Turán III a Tier 5. That being said, I don’t think the side armor is that big of an issue, as the Easy Eight only has 38mm of side armor, while the VK 30.01H has 30mm of side armor. Granted the tank’s soft stats are going to need to be buffed, and most likely an unhistorical weapon would need to be used. But compared to some of the things Wargaming has done, I think buffing the Turán III to a Tier 6 wouldn’t be the worst. Far from it in my opinion.

          • The overmatch is a HUGE issue, because it means “no ricochets, ever”. While 5mm might not seem like a huge deal, 30mm means only 90mm guns will overmatch it (not so common for tier 4-6, even 7), while 25mm means 75mm guns will overmatch it, which means EVERY vehicle.

            And I am not even talking about the top gun (43M was a PaK 40 L/43 copy), which had in WoT terms cca 100mm pen, that’s not sustainable on tier 6.

          • Side armor could be increased by armor skirts, according to Hungarian wiki, side skirts would consist of 3-4 plates, each 5-8 mm thick, that’s 15mm additional armor, even if we go with the lower numbers.
            And for the gun, it can have the 75/L 70, it wouldn’t be too far fetched.
            And for the Tas, it could receive a fictional 80mm gun, based on the 29M 80mm Bofors AA gun. Its penetration values are not too impressive, but that’s mostly the fault of the ammunition. Numbers are: 83mm at 100m, 77mm at 500m, 70mm at 1000m, muzzle velocity: 750m/s. So in Wot it could be a weaker cousin of the 88/L56, penetration around 110-120, damage 200, and a rate of fire of 12-14.

  2. Nice article. However here’s a little help: Honvéd is a rank(the lowest in the army). Honvédség is the name of the army.

    • Where does it say there was an SPG mounting the 21cm M1940? I mean, we could create a GW Tas out of whole cloth like Wargaming did with the GW Tiger P, but I’d rather not.

  9. Tas Rohamlöveg looks interesting, i preferred my Jagdpanther with the 88/L71 anyway. I’d try that one, especially the lower profile piques my interest.

    • It does look very nice, I normally hate TD’s but that one has a certain something. Gun depression would be basically zero though looking at the cabin height.

      • I think there comes a point at about Tier 6 or 7 where national branches need to be linked into other branches in order for them to continue. For instance, since Wargaming hasn’t implemented the HS 30 mit 90mm Bord K as the German Tier 7 light tank, we could have that be a Swiss Tier 7 light. For a Tier 8 light, the Austrian SK-105 Kürassier would be ideal, and the Kürassier could then in turn lead into a Tier 9 Swedish KRV as they both rely on autoloaders. Like I said, that’s just an example as to how creating links between the branches might become necessary.

        • Kürassier on Tier 8 ? Never, that’s tier 10 material. Same gun as Batchat on a smaller, more mobile and faster chassis ? On tier 8 ? Haha ..

  13. Excellent! I love this article and those two tanks, never thought Hungarians ha THIS awesome tanks!

  14. There is an error you wrote “Tas Röhamloveg was a tank destroyer project…” but it is “Rohamlöveg” Like you wrote in top of the picture :)

    • The error is not his, other sources call the Tas rohamlöveg a TD project.
      So to clarify:
      páncélos = panzer, tank
      rohamlöveg = sturmgeschütz(StuG), assult gun
      páncélvadász = panzerjäger, tank hunter
      vadászpáncélos = jagdpanzer, hunting tank
      Just like in wot, StuG III is a TD :)

  15. WG could probably just pull some bullshit out of their ass and but a turret on the Tas Rohamlöveg chassis and remove the hull mounted gun for a tier 8.

  17. I’m a hungarian guy, and i really like this article.
    I read more than 10 books about ww2 warfare, tank developing and some other things, so i’m a nearly a “specialist” xD. I’m happy to hungarian tanks will appear in the game.
    i would to say something more about Tas HT. As somebody said upper, prof. Jurek developed a 700Hp diesel engine for the Tas and Tas rohamlöveg, what could make this tank very fast and mobile. And they were plans about a lot more poverful gun. A 80mm-es DIMáVAG gun, what based on a svedish AA gun, and were also plans to equip the tank with german 88mm gun. I think this two tanks could be very useful at T7, and i hope WG will make this upgrade plans real in world of tanks and make an excelent ingame tank. (sry for my terrible english :( )

    • Well, the 80mm gun was a copy of the Swedish Bofors AA cannon. I am not sure it was very powerful… by the way as far as I remember, the Hungarians actually wanted to install it on the Toldi chassis to create an interesting tank destroyer.

  18. Pingback: Hungarian armor part 1 – 44M Tas and Tas Rohamlöveg | XVM战绩插件中文化团队

  19. So irl the Panther and JagdPanther top speeds were both at 55 km/h? Why in game both have 48 and 46 km/h only? Panther and JagdPanther are some of the clumsiest vehicles in game they deserve their irl top speed don’t you think?

  20. These were just negotiation position enhancer projects, I think – the same story happened with WM-23 Ezüst Nyíl fighter aircraft. Hungarian engineers tried to copy a more or less successful German design (WM-23 was a He-112 copy, and Tas was a Panther copy), but without powerful industrial background Germans had, they used whatever they found. (as thos 2 engines from the Turan). There were no true tank-building capacity in the country – Weiss Manfréd or Ganz wasn’t a Skoda or a Niebelungenwerke – neither serious financial background for these projects. But at the end Hungarian politics reached a point, from where the army was able to use more advaced German equipment – they got Bf.109s and Me210s for the air force, and refurbished Tigers, Pz.IVs and Stugs for the tank divisions.

    TBH hungarian tanks were not obsolete at all in 1939, when Germans used Pz.II-s, Pz.III-s and LT-35s as their main force, but in ’42 when Hungary joined the war, with less then 100 Turans, and some fast, but unarmoured Toldi light tanks, there were no chance to challange russians and their thousands of T-34s. There were some Hungarian tank aces, as Tarczay Ervin, but they fought in Tigers and Pz.IVs mostly, when germans dropped some used equipment to the Hungarians.

  21. “Characteristics:

    (in the brackets: Panther D statistics for comparison)
    Crew: 5 (5)
    Weight: 38 tons (44,8)
    Lenght: 9,2 meters (8,66)
    Width: 3,5 meters (3,27)
    Height: 3 meters (2,99)
    Engine: 2x Turán, 520hp in total (HL230, 700hp)
    Armor
    Frontal: 100-120mm (80)
    Sides: 50mm (40)
    Turret frontal: 100mm (100)
    Turret sides: 100mm (45)
    Turret rear: 50mm (45)
    Armament: 75mm KwK 42 or 75mm 43M (the same)
    Speed: 45km/h (55km/h)”

    Wait…. It is bigger in all dimensions (lenght, width, height), has more armour on all sides, and still weights 6,8 tons less? o.O

    Something is wrong here I think….

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