European Tree part V – Yugoslavia

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Part I – Introduction
Part II – Italy, Czechoslovakia
Part III – Hungary
Part IV – Sweden

Hello everyone,

today, we are going to talk about another quite original branch or branches, that could appear in the European Tree – the Yugoslavia ones. There is an old myth running around that the “smaller” nations had no original tanks of their own – I hope that in previous parts, we debunked this sufficiently and today, we will continue to do so.

Unlike relatively rich Sweden’s tank development, Yugoslavia’s tank development was born out of necessity to counter both western and eastern tank designs with indigenous resources due to the precarious and complicated situation after the war. Where Sweden simply developed their tanks because it was advantageous for them and Czechoslovakia was satisfied with improving Soviet armor from 1950′s onwards, Yugoslavia had to make do with a mixture of American and Russian vehicles and go on from there, developing an entire series of their own original medium tank projects.

This time, I will be drawing upon the work of Yugomaniac and Bojan, both well-known for, amongst other things, proposing a Yugoslavian branch for World of Tanks. Early Yugoslavian designs are very closely tied to Czechoslovak branch (some of the tanks being basically entirely Czechoslovak, made however solely for the purpose of export to Yugoslavia). Here’s a variant of Bojan’s and Yugomaniac’s tree – another proposed variant would completely lack low tiers, starting straight from the Czechoslovak branch. Obviously, that’s something that should be avoided.

mv53

Unfortunately, there is not that much info I could find about these vehicles, not nearly as detailed as the Swedish tree – more research is required I guess.

First, the light/medium branch.

Tier 1 – Renault M26/27, basically a Renault FT with different (Kegresse) suspension. Quite original actually, could also serve as tier 1 for Poland, they were using it as well.

m2627

Tier 2 and 3 – Škoda and Praga category II light tanks. Praga P-IIa was a 1935/36 competing project to the famous Š-IIa (LT vz.35, also known as Panzer 35t) – it had very thin armor (15mm front) and an older model of 37mm gun (A3, cca 40mm pen in WoT terms) and a 114hp Praga engine. It was rejected by both the Czechoslovak and Yugoslav army for insufficient armor.

p2a-001a_123

Tier 3, Š-IIa-j, is a proposed improved version of the LT vz.35. It is also known as the “T-12″ and was armed with a powerful 47mm A9 gun. 11 tons, 135 horsepower, 47mm A9 gun, 25mm frontal armor. The prototype was made in 1940, but by then Czechoslovakia was already occupied, exporting to Yugoslavia was no longer an option and from the Axis bloc, noone was really interested – and so the prototype was “cannibalized” for other tanks.

Skoda-T-12

Tier 4 – Somua S35 with a 6pdr, this was a unique conversion of the Somua S35 tank, made in Shibenik by Yugoslavian partisans. The Germans were using the S35 as second line armor (as they did with a lot of captured tanks), partisans captured it and modified it with a 6pdr Mk.V from a destroyed AEC armored car. Most likely one of a kind, although some sources suggest that two of these actually existed. Obviously, the turret had to be heavily modified in order to carry such a large weapon.

somua_yug_167

Other sources also suggest that the real reason for this conversion could be the lack of ammunition and damage to the original gun.

Tier 5 (Mk.IV/76mm) is a proposal to re-arm the Panzer IV tank with the US M1A1 76mm gun – allegedly, drawings were made, but this project was scrapped due to the tank being obsolete.

Tier 6 – Vozilo A. Now we are getting somewhere. Vozilo A was an attempt of post-war Yugoslavia to improve the T-34, using indigenous resources. Most people, who see it on pictures, think it’s some sort of “weird T-34″, but in fact it was really an indigenous development. 9 were produced between 1949 and 1951. The armament is a bit complicated. Italian sources suggest following weapons:

75mm KwK 42 L/70 (already in game)
85mm ZIS S-53 (already in game)
85mm M51 – a bottlenecked version of the German 88mm L/56, modified to fire Soviet 85mm shells. It could penetrate 140mm at 100m with AP, 190mm with APCR

The vehicle weighed cca 33 tons, was powered by a V-2 diesel (500hp), could reach 50 km/h. Armor – hull: 50/45/? mm, turret 100/82-86/60mm.

tip-a

tip-a1

Tiers 7 to 10 represent the indigenous Yugoslavian research into tanks. Tier 7 – M-328/628 “Galeb” (seagull) is a further development of the Vozilo A from 1958-1959. I am actually not sure any photos of this stage exist, but basically, the idea was to mount even more powerful gun on the T-34 chassis, including the American 90mm M3 gun.

Tier 8 – M-320 was on the other hand a brand new tank and an attempt to create a copy of the T-54 (to which Yugoslavia at that point did not have access) while combining it with the lessons learned from the Americans. The development started in 1955 and resulted in a working prototype.

To quote Yugomaniac: “During 1955 Mechanical Institute has begun the preliminary design work on the M-320 medium tank. Performing examination of characteristics on all available tanks (T-34, M-4, M-47, M-18…), many subsystems were examined in detail, a detailed numerical analysis of major subsystems and running gear were carried out and an optimal solution was proposed for our requirements and capabilities. But already the next year 1956, project was abandoned and efforts were redirected at perfecting T-34, since production of some units for it had already been realized”

m320

The tank would weight 34 tons, had a crew of 5, was powered by a 520hp V-2R engine (max. speed 50 km/h) and was equipped either with 90mm M3, or 90mm M1 (equal to the US 90mm M36 gun). Armor: 75/40/20 hull, 105/52/50 turret.

Tier 9 – M-636 “Kondor” – the ultimate attempt to emulate the T-54. Developed from 1953 to 1963 in parallel to the previous designs, cancelled after the “thawing” of relations between Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Several stages were developed, with the common characteristics being the crew of 5, a powerful engine (520hp V-2R with planned improvement to 600hp), originally the 90mm M1 gun (see above), but also with the possibility of the 100mm D-10T (D-10T2S) upgrade. Speed would be cca 50 km/h, weight around 35 tons.

unk-m636_001

The ultimate stage of this project (M-636D, also called T-34D) from 1963 would “sit” at tier 10, equipped with the proposed 105mm French CN gun and a 680hp engine. This picture was made by Yugomaniac as well:

kv34

The tank destroyers are even more obscure. There is the famous project of the PaK 40 on Stuart:

yustuartpak001

Then there is a project of a PaK 40 on Panzer III hull I have never heard about, allegedly one was modified as such. SO-76/85 Majbach was apparently a paper project to re-arm the StuG with 76mm M1A1 or 85mm ZIS S-53 (similiar project existed in Czechoslovakia by the way). Then there is Vozilo B on tier 6, which is the same as Vozilo A, only having a 90mm M3 gun. SO-122 M-4 is the famous Sherman with the 122mm gun:

so122

And probably the weirdest Yugoslav project is this:

m18td_002

Yea, that’s a T-54 hull with a Hellcat turret, used for training. There is even a model of this vehicle for WoT, made by fans:

so76m18mod

The artillery is even more obscure and I have no photos, so I will just copypaste Bojan’s comment on that branch:

Tier 2 – SO-75 H-35
Hotchkiss H-35 with turret removed and 7.5cm leIG18 mounted on it.

Tier 3 – SO-150 M-3A3
Stuart with 15cm sIG33

Tier 4 – SO-105 M-18
M18 mod with most of turret cut off and 105mmm howitzer mounted. 120deg traverse.
Weapons: 105mm M3, 105mm M2

Tier 5 – SO-122(H) M-4
122mm M-30 (M38) howitzer on Sherman chassis
Weapons: 105mm M2 (stock), 122mm M38 (top).

Tier 6 – SO-155(H) T-34
155mm M1 howitzer on T-34 chassis
Weapons : 122mm M38, 155mm M1

Tier 7 – SO-155(T) M-4 Mod
Modified Sherman chassis with either 130mm M46 or 155mm M1A1 gun facing backward.
Weapons: 130mm M46, 155mm M1A1

Tier 8 – SO-152(T)/155(T) T-54
Weaponse: 152 ML-20 (stock) or 155mm M1A1 (Top) na T-54 chassis

Tier 9 – SO-203(H) T-54/55
203mm howitzer on T-54/55 chassis

Tier 10 – SO-203(T) T-55
203mm L/40 gun on T-55 chassis. This is early ’70s project but fits otherwise.

67 thoughts on “European Tree part V – Yugoslavia”

  1. Tier 7 – SO-155(T) M-4 Mod
    Modified Sherman chassis with either 130mm M46 or 155mm M1A1 gun facing backward.
    Weapons: 130mm M46, 155mm M1A1.

    Does it have turret? If does – its turret spin at all or spin REALLY slowly?

  2. Tier 4 – Somua S35 with a 6pdr, this was a unique conversion of the Somua S35 tank, made in Shibenik by Yugoslavian partisans.
    If this “Shibenik” is a city it’s misspelled. It should be Šibenik.

    Anyway this could be interesting. There are some strangely designed tanks, and even more interesting combinations (T54 – Hellcat, or Somua with 6pdr, or the Vozilo A). I would really like to play with those tanks.
    I guess it’s up to WG to see if there is ANY chance to see these vehicles in game

  3. Yep. That’s a perfect example of what EU tree should NOT be.

    A collection of Franken-Tanks.

    • I like whacky tanks. Since we have the Waffleträger branch, we may as well have this. AND I’m from former Yugoslavia, so screw you, we gun have these tanks one way or another.

      • Well, at least this is HISTORICAL frankentank unlike Waffletank E-100. Though i admit arty line is a bit suspicious.

        And will i offend ex Yugos by saying TITO STRONK?

        • Depends on who to you say it as not all Yugoslavs are same. If you say it to Serbians they will praise him, but say it to any other Yugoslav and you might get punched in face

          • That is a lie. I’m not form serbia and I would not puch anyone in the face for saying good things a bout Tito. And I know a lot of other people who respect him as well.

            • +1 to you Gomolj …sha RC you cleary don’t know what you are talking about. TITO was one of the best things that could have happened to us. He is praised from everybody…the only ones that don’t like him are people who collaborated with nazis.

            • There is this joke about Tito…
              So this guy dies and goes to hell. He comes down and sees pool parties with grills and hot women everywhere, so he asks Satan:
              “Isn’t this hell? where’s the fire and torture?”
              “well, since Tito came down here things have changed.”
              :D

              • If your grandfather or someone else from your family was sent to Goli Otok (Barren Island), a labor camp for political prisoners, only for speaking the opposite of the communist establishment at the time, you would punch in the face anyone who speaks positive about Tito and his communist regime. The political situation in Europe (Yugoslavia being a buffer zone between East and the West) made that county possible during the Cold War, but as soon as the Berlin wall fell Yugoslavia had no purpose.

          • That’s not even true. I don’t know in percents, but not every Serb was jacking off to Tito painting in his study room, some were still proud of our royal family and in Yugoslavia any even minor try of Serbian national praise of Serbian ethnicity was quelled. There were no Serbs, only Yugoslavs.

            We had a civil war between partisans and chetniks after all. We are a weird nation.

          • Allegedly he write a letter to Uncle Joe:
            “Stop sending people to kill me, or I’ll send one to kill you and i ‘ll don’t need to send another”.

            Guess who live longer.

            • This is true, Stalin sent 4 assassins to kill Tito, after the 4th one was killed Tito replied with that message.
              Tito was also the only man who had balls to say NO to Stalin!

              • Stop sending people to kill me. We’ve already captured five of them, one of them with a bomb and another with a rifle. If you don’t stop sending killers, I’ll send one to Moscow, and I won’t have to send a second.

          • NOPE, problem was: milosevic, tudjman, izetbegovic and all the other retarded assholes that did all the shit to people of Yugoslavia. I’ll quote Kevin Smith here:

            We’re gonna make them eat our shit, then shit out our shit, and then eat their shit that’s made up of our shit that we made ‘em eat. Then you’re all you motherfucks are next. Love- Jay and Silent Bob.

    • Would rather play this than Chinese shit copy tanks. Sherman with 122mm, who can say NO to that!

      • So far as I know, Yugoslavia had tanks in 1980′s which were about to get sold to Sweden and Norway, these tanks were even better than any USA or USSR back then. Yugoslavia was mighty nation, but not just by military.. People lived good in it.

  4. Weird for the tier 10 medium : The model F-1 gun doesn’t shot Ap/Apcr shells, only He/Heat/apfsds/smoke, because of innapropriate rifling. At least on the AMX-30.

      • It uses the same shells, but the gun itself is differant. The gun of the bat-chat is the same as the one of the M-51 super sherman, not the “modèle F1″ gun. Taking into account that 105 mm mle. 57 (D. 1504) = CN-105-57.

        • French 105mm (both versions) was considered by Yugoslavia due the exceptional performances of it’s HEAT shells. In game it would need imaginary APCR/APDS just as BatChat.

  5. Wow finally a tank tree with some magic!!!

    And now for some obligatory:

    Jugoslavijo

    Od Vardara pa do Triglava,
    od Đerdapa pa do Jadrana,
    Kao niska sjajnog đerdana,
    Svetlim suncem obasjana,
    ponosito sred Balkana,
    Jugoslavijo, Jugoslavijo!

    Širom sveta put me vodio,
    sa sudbom sam svojom hodio,
    u srcu sam tebe nosio,
    uvek si mi draga bila,
    domovino moja mila,
    Jugoslavijo, Jugoslavijo!

    Volim tvoje reke, i gore,
    tvoje šume, polja i more,
    volim tvoje ljude ponosne,
    i ratara i pastira,
    u frulicu kad zasvira,
    Jugoslavijo, Jugoslavijo!

    Krv se mnoga za te prolila,
    borba te je naša rodila,
    radnička te ruka stvorila,
    živi srećna u slobodi,
    ljubav naša nek te vodi,
    Jugoslavijo, Jugoslavijo!

    :) :) :) Ajmo braco Hrvati, Slovenci, Bosanci, Crnogorci i Makedonci da zawotarimo dok se boje ne istope :) :) :)

    Sry, just had to do it, will behave…

    • Entire medium tree is much more original than lets say, chinese one for example. I would not dare to talk about paper tanks and W-thingies.
      Only “problem” in this equation would be that we would have different nations under one nation(crew members from different countries that were once one), and that could produce much butthurt to some fellas(I point at you ultranationalists!). I personally would loooove to have completely mixed crew in my M-320.

      Also, camo might be an issue, since as far as I know JNA(Yugoslav Peoples Army) didn’t have any dedicated camo patterns for tanks or other mechanized vehicles. Shait, camo is a problem for entire euro tree!

        • nikad se ne ponovila ta zločinačka tvorevina na čelu s crvenim govnetom brozom

          • Slazem se da je tito veliko zlocinacko govno i da je napravio zli sistem za mucenje ljudi, ali smo mi svi bili i ostali braca i pre i za vreme i posle Jugoslavije…

          • Tako je! Jer sad kad su sve države samostalne, svima je bolje i žive kao Švicarska. Ili to ili su ostale popljačkane, siromašne i nebitne klijenetelističke državice. A vidi za divno čudo, to je jedna od rijetkih stvari koja im je svima zajednička. Pametnom dosta.

            • A je li bilo mučenja. Ako si tulio protiv režima išao si na goli to je istina, ali su se pred kraj stvari smirile i normalizirale. A što se tiće onih koji su kukali za slobodnim tržištem, demokracijom i nacionalnom državom reći ču ovo: moj djed je izgradio dvije lijepe kuće u razmaku 5-10.g s minimalnim kreditima koje je vratio unutar godinu dana i još mu je ostalo dosta ušteđevine, a sada neka mi netko kaže tko to danas može u zemljama ”regije/regiona” a da nije bogataš ili mafijaš.
              Po pitanju Tita kao zloćinca-j*biga, počinio je i Ataturk genocid nad Armenijom ali je Tursku katapultirao sto godina unaprijed, onaj tko je bez grijeha nek baci prvi kamen.

  6. I would SOOOOOOOOO play these tanks. At least they are a part of our nations history. And they look fucking awesome!!!!
    ME WANT’S IT!!!!! ME WANT’S IT!!!

  7. There is a certain population in WoT that gets pissed off at insignificant nations running around with OP tanks. Or mythical Waffles running around destroying everything in their path.

      • +1
        Anyone who still has any delusions that Josip Broz Tito was a minor figure or that Yugoslavia was not important on a global scale, look up the assembled world leaders (ALL of them, from ALL sides of the political spectrum) at Tito’s funeral, and then find me a world leader that attracted an equal amount of equally important political figures. You may say he was not important, but facts are facts.

        Also, to all the royalist, fascist or other opponents of Yugoslavian SOCIALISM (we never had communism, get educated), if Tito hadn’t pulled the assembled backwater peasants kicking and screaming into the industrial age, you would still be shepherding or digging in coal mines for some neighbouring country instead of writing about his flaws online.

        The fact that his successors were lazy and greedy nationalists does not take away from his achievements or from Yugoslavia’s reputation.

    • Oh really? Do u know when tensions with Italy rose and Tito prepared army in todays Slovenia to invade Italy, the US goverment had to BEG Tito from not anhiliating Italians?

  8. I would totaly play these tanks :D Yeah, sure most of them are frankentanks but who wouldnt like to play a sherman with a 155mm gun ! And beside, the game has so many tanks that werent even made, and almost all of these were made. Awesome post :D awaited it for a long time.
    Zivi bili pa videli :)

  10. Actually i would have to say having the yugoslavian tanks leading from the Lt.vz 35 would be logical, the Lt.vz 35 is a very commen tank between nations so it would make sense certain nations tanks would stem from it, it would save cloning the tank to many times in the same tree same as the Renault FT.
    It is a complicated issue to construct a tree from so many nations,
    The whole tree could perhaps be split into two separate trees, may not end up been as confusing, but some of the nations maybe even be better as trees on there own ie sweden.

    • Not really madness…
      Tier 3 would be pretty similar to Bison.
      Tier 4 to PzSflIVb with better mobility
      Tier 5, M41 with worse gun
      Tier 6, well it is unique
      Tier 7 is similar to stock M40/M43
      Tier 8/9/10 have better mobility but worse guns then US arty.

  12. One thing about Yugo tree is good gun depression.
    Tier 6, 7 and 8 meds have -10deg, tier 9 has -10 with 90mm or -8 with 100mm gun.

  14. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/M-84_DanOSRH2011.JPG/405px-M-84_DanOSRH2011.JPG

    Production history
    Designer VTI – Military Technical Institute Belgrade
    Designed 1979 – 1983
    Produced 1984 – 1991 (Yugoslavia) 1996-2003 (Croatia)
    Number built ~650
    Specifications
    Weight 41.5 tonnes
    Length 9.53 m
    Width 3.57 m
    Height 2.19 m
    Crew 3 (commander, gunner, driver)
    Armor composite alloy; including high-hardness steel, tungsten and plastic filler with ceramic component.
    Main
    armament
    125 mm 2A46 smoothbore gun
    Secondary
    armament
    7.62 mm coaxial machine gun, 12.7mm anti-aircraft gun, 5 smoke grenade lanuchers
    Engine diesel V-46TK
    1,000 hp (746 kW)
    Power/weight 24.10 hp/tonne
    Suspension torsion bar
    Fuel capacity 1200 + 400l
    Operational
    range
    700 km
    Speed 68 km/h

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