European Tree part II – Italy, Czechoslovakia

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Hello everyone,

in part I, we talked about the theoretical concept of the European tree. Now, let’s have a look at some of the stuff, that could come with it and the various nations contained within.

Please note one thing though – okay, three things in fact.

One – the research on possible EU branches is far from complete
Second – some branches do have a problematic situation when it comes to gaps in them
Three – Wargaming is not officially conducting any EU tree research yet.

As I wrote earlier, the final decision whether to implement the EU tree or not should came in Autumn 2014. Until then, it’s up to the fans of this tree to find as much info as possible.

Putting together a qualified EU tree branch proposal is also NOT easy, as you can imagine and quite frankly, for people not of that respective nation, it’s pretty much impossible. That’s why this post will be based on work of other people, who are probably the best at this sort of thing. I will credit them as I go.

While the decision on EU tree is not yet taken, I will be going with the likely variant of each nation having its own branches within the tree (eg. no mixing of nations in one branch) – mixing the branches would create pointless friction (“why do I have to play Polish tanks in order to get to hightier Czechoslovaks” and stuff like that) and (using Occam’s Razor rule) is the most likely. The last variant of crews’ nationality, that was openly discussed, was the option to (when you recruit the crew) select the crew nationality (eg. you could have Czech crews in Italian tanks for example, but ONLY if you specifically choose to do so). In such a case, national voiceover is not a problem (for example, Czech voiceover exists).

Italy

Italy is… complicated. Of all the potential EU tree nations, it has a special place (along with Hungary), because its vehicles actually fought and played an important role in WW2. Despite some of them being terribly, terribly obsolete by the time they got into the fight, contrary to popular belief, their deployment was not entirely unsuccessful and cases, where the Italians kicked British ass in Africa are actually not as rare as people think. Italian vehicles would also fit well in historical battles – specifically the African ones versus the British.

Earlier on, there were some rumors about Italy appearing as an independent tree – some info also emerged that WG EU office is pushing for this option, but as of now, unless the rules for new trees (which is “tier 10 of all classes”) change significantly, there is a very little chance of seeing an Italian independent tree. In order to have a look at the Italians, I will be drawing from Vollketten’s and Zarax’s posts on EU/US forums and also some work from Raptor_Fulcrum, a WG EU Italian employee, who works directly with Yuri Pasholok on this.

Anyway, back to Italy. The way I see it, the Italians can build (with difficulties) a full medium branch. Italian light tanks are usually just pre-war/wartime crap and tank destroyers and artillery are very problematic, with the most poweful potential candidate being the mid-war Semovente with a 149mm gun, which was an artillery piece anyway. There is an entire thread about them on US forums, probably the most detailed info on Italian tanks.

Light tanks – well, here it’s pretty straightforward. The L3 tankettes are most likely too weak, but as tier 1 would do. Then there is the 5 ton Ansaldo and the L6 light tanks, both solid tier 1-2 tanks. Little else above that though, no hightier scouts I know of.

Fiat-Ansaldo_L6_40

Medium tanks – here it gets a bit better. Lowtiers are covered pretty well from tier 2 to 4 with the M11/39, M13/40, M14/41 and M15/42 – the most advanced Italian mass-produced tank.

M15-42-Saumur.0004yfcp

After that it gets a bit complicated. Tier 5 is probably covered by the Celere Sahariano, but after that, the problems are starting. There are the Italian P.75 project of a multi-turret medium tank from 1940 of roughly 30 tons, 30mm armor, a 75mm (L/34?) gun and some sort of 450hp engine (40 km/h).

ozTWL04

Apparently, there was also a 90mm version, so that could cover tier 6 or so. What remains is the P.40 series of various mutations (including a long 90mm version). As far as I can tell, this is tier 6 stuff, but apparently there were some obscure upgrade projects for the entire thing. Vollketten has it covered in detail. High tiers are actually more interesting. There are two options for tier 10. Either OTO “Centauro” – basically a Leopard with an autoloader, found by Raptor_Fulcrum:

sy2Z5fj

Or an upgraded M47 Patton with a 105mm gun by OTO (it had a different engine too, so overall, it would be a quite distinct vehicle).

7ZHQ232

Tier 9 could be the M47 105mm prototype by OTO, but tier 8 is a problem. Zarax proposed to fill it with a Panther (Italians apparently considered making those), but yea, here it’s really unclear. Forget about OF-40 though – too new.

Tank destroyers – yea, pretty much nothing here. A bunch of lotier Semovente guns (Italian take on the “StuG”). Realistically, these would reach tier 6 and that’s it, with the biggest boom being the Semovente 149, but that was an artillery vehicle.

CRkhtka

Semovente 105 looks kinda badass though, but with only a mediocre 105mm and 75mm armor, it’s really a tier 5 material.

Semovente_105_25

Italian artillery has even more issues (practically nothing original on higher tiers). Heavy tanks – well, the P.26 and P.40 tanks are technically “heavies”, but if we cannibalize them from the medium branch, the meds will have a real problem. This is probably the most advanced Italian heavy project, the P.43 bis from 1943 (100mm frontal armor, 75mm or 90mm gun, 30 tons and 420hp engine – yea, that’s like tier 6-7, depending on balancing).

0cl8c2Q

Summary:

As you can see, Italy is missing hightier SPG’s, TD’s, hightier scouts and heavies. The vehicles that remain seems to have relatively good mobility and firepower, but generally poor armor. The hightier meds of course are modified versions of the western designs, but still – autoloading Leopard? Why not.

Czechoslovakia

Well, here, I guess I don’t have to introduce anything, since I have written on this topic extensively. Czechoslovakia is another major candidate for the EU tree. In case you are interested in details, you can check the “Czechoslovak tree” portal on the old FTR. Some of the stuff in it is obsolete (I looked into it in much more detail ever since, but as an overview, it serves well.

Czechoslovakia is technically in a better position for implementation than Italy. Full medium, artillery and (with a bit of “interpreting” at tier 10) tank destroyer branch can be built, with light tanks up to tier 6 or so. The only thing we are lacking are heavy tanks (we had only the pre-war T-III and Š-III which are utter crap and post-war IS-2 and (experimentally) IS-3). This is (roughly!) how such a tree could look like:

strom

This tree however is obsolete (for example, TD’s are wrong, arties only up to tier 8 – there is enough to make them tier 10, LT7 is an amphibean – that’s not allowed).

Light tanks – well, Czechoslovak LT Vz.38 (LT-38) was the best light tank in the world right before the war and during the early conflicts. The light branch follows that design. T-16 is basically an advanced post-war sloped armor prototype of the T-15:

t-15_1

TNH 57/900 is an autoloading 57mm advanced development of the original LT Vz.38:

oE2bW

And the T-17 is one of the last Czechoslovak LT proposals. Both tier 5 and 6 would carry high penetration autoloaders and would be quite nimble, sort of like current AMX 12t.

2nbM3

Medium tanks – here it starts with the classic LT Vz.38 light tank, over the Praga V-8-H pre-war project (ST-39) (an excellent pre-war medium tank project, carrying 47mm gun and somewhat decent mobility)

v-8-h_461

Then we go on over T-24 (“lighter T-25″) and T-25 tanks on tiers 5 and 6 (T-25 is already in the game, but the Czechoslovak one had for one a different armor configuration (a little more in the front, less on the sides), the 75mm gun had more penetration in the game and it also had an autoloader. I wrote about it in detail here.

And now we cross into the TVP realm, various incarnations of which would occupy tiers 7 to 10. TVP has in general following characteristics:

- mediocre frontal armor, good turret armor though
- 100mm gun (possibly with an autoloader), equal in power to the Soviet 100mm hightier guns
- a 1000hp engine – yea, that’s twice as much as the Soviets have

Basically, a more armored version of a Batchat on tier 10. Here’s how the latest stage of the project (T-50/51) looked like, render made by Giganaut…

JYALbus

0c4592bbf20ff653ee5c226f6cbd26d5-d742cvk

tvp_warehouse_by_giganaut-d742crd

Artillery – the artillery projects were on the heavy side. Mid-tier T-25-based artillery had a turret with a 105mm and 150mm gun (wartime development for Germans), while high tiers are occupied by the Panther chassis, a project to convert them post-war by Czechoslovaks, using Czechoslovak guns. It looked for example like this:

CEvzR

The top tier arty would be the installation of a MASSIVE 305mm mortar B20 on the Panther. Very heavy, very unwieldly, but with tons of hitting power.

U1CVf

And last but not least, tank destroyers. Unlike the artillery, Czechoslovak tank destroyer projects were quite light. There are both turretted and turretless versions. Majority of the hightier TD’s would be built on either the LP chassis (connected to the T-16 light tank) – that’s tiers 6 and 7 – think Hetzer on steroids and a Hellcat with a 17pdr, because that’s what it was. There was a 105mm derp version as well. Light, nimble and powered by very powerful engines (for their weight anyway – 16 tons, 520 horsepower). Armor would of course be non-existent.

j5o5Z

puGtt

Tier 8 is problematic and I don’t have an answer yet. Tier 9 and 10 would be based on the TVP chassis, it’s still a bit unclear how to do it exactly, but basically, the main option is to have this on tier 9:

SYRMF

And this on tier 10:

A0eeW

No armor, but 40 tons, 1000 horsepower, a turret and a high-power 152mm gun in it. Insane Hellcat on steroids. And crack. Apparently, in WoT terms, it would actually work… I asked. So yea.

Summary:

Czechoslovak vehicles are generally light, nimble, with average firepower, but they sometimes have brutal engines. Gameplay-wise, they would be something between the French and the Americans, with a healthy dose of Russian influence.

In order to keep the post withing at least some limits, this is where we end today. Next time, we’ll have a look at Sweden, Hungary and everyone else – some of the Swedish stuff is literally mind-blowing.

57 thoughts on “European Tree part II – Italy, Czechoslovakia”

  3. The general problem for me is that many nations only focus on thin armoured smaller tanks which easily fill the lower ranks, but the dance between armor and penetration is what makes tanks fun and planes suckish, I’d hate to see more anal-probing tanks when there already is getting hard to rely on armor with gold ammo around.

    • Well the problem is most countries focused on making mobile tanks rather than slow moving fortresses (except CCCP and Germany, of course), especially after WW2 when ammo was getting better and better at penetrating any kind of armour. That’s why Leo1 is how it is, they said “hell, if anything will penetrate us anyway, it may as well be fast” and stripped it of all it’s armour. So in the hightier games it won’t be the dance of armour and penetration, but rather speed and agility and tactics, which is equally awesome.

  4. Eagerly looking forward to the Swedish tree.
    Having once upon a time served in the Swedish army, Mechanized infantry, It’ll be fun to see what jewels you’ll suggest for this game.

  6. I think they should give each nation their own tree even if they are not complete tree. The Chinese tree looks like it wont be completed this side of the apocalypse then we can try all the nations, Italy, Czechoslovakia etc That way crew nationality is not an issue.

    • I agree with you.Let’s have all nations their own trees, even if they cant reach tier 10.So what if they can’t reach?
      I think all minor nation’s players are eager to play with their own country’s tanks, even if they only fit in lower tiers, or even if they will be too worse compared to the major nations tanks.
      As a hungarian i would try gladly the hungarian Turán, Tas/Tas Td, Zrínyi, the romanian Mareșal, swedish Bofors 12cm Sav and Strv m/42, the italian Semovente 105 and M15/42, czech light tanks and TVP.
      And you are not forced to try all inserted nation’s tanks.Only wich interest you…don’t you ?

  7. 1. nazi occupation
    2. soviet occupation

    both stealed czechoslovak industry => czechoslovakia armed “whole” europe .. (of course, no good airplanes)

    • Avia B534 was a fine plane for its time. The Germans pressed it into service in Poland.
      Appy

      • Given that the Germans were also having to use tanks meant as design/industry practice exercises and crew trainers as frontline combat AFVs, that doesn’t actually mean much.

  8. Good read. At the end of these series it’d be cool to see a nice EU Tree image to have an idea how it could look.

  10. T1: kolohousenka = wheel-cartepillar (insect)

    SPG: kominík = chimney-sweep

    T7 LT – LETÁK – did you really mean amphibious tank? WG is preaparing some surprise? no more submarines in game?

  11. I have figured out why WG doesn’t want Israeli Tanks in.
    On Tier 2, they would be forced to put the Micro Maus in.

    Israel bought 10 Micro Maus’s and operated them in the 1948 War of Independence.
    Somebody should have told them that WG was gonna take it out of the shop.

    • Hey SS,
      I am going to be in the Israeli National Tank Museum on this coming Saturday. They have 150 tanks of various ages, including many tanks that are in WoT.

      You interested in Photo’s?

    • Funnily enough, Israel paid much more then Market Value for them, similar to the situation now where if u want one u need to buy it on EBAY for much more then what they cost originally.

    • On the other hand the day they announce the somua is definitely NOT appearing in the french tree is the day a lot of people lose their marbles.

  12. Just a thought, but wouldn’t it be easier to just mix tanks of various nations into one line, just like the Chinese? A few rough examples would be: Fiat L6/40 > 7TP > Toldi > Fiat M13/40 > Strv m/42 > 40M Turán I > Carro Armato P 40 > M-51 Super Sherman > Centauro etc.

    TD line can be like this: TACAM T-60 > TACAM R-2 > Sav M/43 > Semovente M40 > BT-42 > 43M Zrínyi > Strv 103 etc.

    The crew will likely be classed as EU for simplicity. The only thing that will matter are the historical markings.

  13. That’s all nice and dandy (I’m not being sarcastic here), but before they implement any of that stuff, I wouldn’t mind WG to actually work on some of the existing nations.

    France and UK produced enough tanks and created enough prototype to double the amount of tanks they have available at the moment. What about WG starts pulling its finger off his arse and work on them? I can’t understand why the Somua S-35 is still not in game as a french tier 4 tank.

  14. I’ve made EU tech tree how i imagine that (this is only the Warsaw Pact(and Jugoslavia) countries and no arties): http://kepfeltoltes.hu/140321/70724946Warsaw_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.png

    And the crew: Some tanks can have two different national crew (for example, Zrínyi can have Romanian crew because they captured one in 1944, but no czech crew in the Zrínyi.). But you can’t have mixed crew (so no czech commander and polish driver). T-54 and the T-54A can use all of the crew (and the ISU too). And the Renault FT has no nationality. Renault FT is universal tank.

      • I tought the Czechs captured only Turáns and these Turáns are converted to arties. But if really they captured Zrínyis, then no problem with the Czech crew.

        • And this is why an EU tree will need to just ignore nationality. If it doesn’t crew management will become a game unto itself…

  15. Semovente 105 looks kinda badass though, but with only a mediocre 105mm and 75mm armor, it’s really a tier 5 material.

    Really? A 105mm is only T5 material?

    Well if all the other 105mm guns in WoT are of any indication than more power creep by stupidly OP TDs is just what we need…

  19. so many tanks and options and WG decided NO for now! :( this saddens me!

    but fear not i’m sure not i’m sure in the future like year 2000 and infinity, WG will add the rest of european tanks!

    in the mean time WG is busy upgrading wot to HD cuz they got scared of WT competition, and must please probably the 1% of paying players who actually got ubberkomputers to run HD, and because they cannot play a game with only a carrot number of megapixels!

    in case you die, you can wait for EU tech tree, IN THE GRAVE where time is irrelevant!

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